Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Mofra]

People on here are defending this shit

Stolen Ukrainian children put up for adoption on websites funded by Putin

Landmark report identifies 314 youngsters forcibly placed in Russia’s programme of coerced adoption and fostering

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Mobbs]

Western inaction and wet tissue response has elevated the risk of a nuclear exchange.through emboldening the antagonist.

Imo 'we could if we wanted to' IS a deployment of nuclear capability. The mere fact Russia can threaten the use of nukes and not immediately be summarily dismantled, is quite shameful.

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[jatz14]

The whole 'Putin has adjusted the nuclear doctrine' panic is a great test for showing up those who are either gullible or Russian shills. Putin is a dictator, the Russian nuclear doctrine is irrelevant for whether they'd actually use a nuke. If Putin decides to use a nuke, they'll use a nuke. If Putin had wanted to use a nuke a month ago no one was going to say 'Well actually this is below the threshold, you'll have to wait until it's been adjusted and approved by the Duma'.

The change exists purely to frighten the West into backing Ukraine less.

Not sure this is true.

And I suspect one reason Putin is unlikely to try to use nukes is, what happens if he orders nuke be used, and they aren't. Leaves him swinging.

After all, at one point the Soviet politburo were screaming for the button to get pushed, and it wasn't.

I think the opposite might be true, even if the threshold for using nukes is reached, he isn't going to be able to.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Andre]

Not sure this is true.

And I suspect one reason Putin is unlikely to try to use nukes is, what happens if he orders nuke be used, and they aren't. Leaves him swinging.

After all, at one point the Soviet politburo were screaming for the button to get pushed, and it wasn't.

I think the opposite might be true, even if the threshold for using nukes is reached, he isn't going to be able to.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

That's a different matter. My point was the nuclear doctrine itself is irrelevant. As you note it's all down to does he have the desire to and if he does, does anyone stop him? The doctrine isn't worth the paper it's written on for any of those calculations.

 

[Zidane98]

That's a different matter. My point was the nuclear doctrine itself is irrelevant. As you note it's all down to does he have the desire to and if he does, does anyone stop him? The doctrine isn't worth the paper it's written on for any of those calculations.

Despite what some believe there is an actual chain of command with Russia's nuclear forces with multiple redundancies, authorisations & permissive links.

Putin doesn't have a giant red button he can press whenever he suffers yet another failure on the battlefield / embarrassing defeat. It's actually quite difficult for him to fire a nuke and there will be plenty in the chain of command that are not silly enough to fire a nuke over a military loss.

 

[IlovethePies]

People on here are defending this shit

Stolen Ukrainian children put up for adoption on websites funded by Putin

Landmark report identifies 314 youngsters forcibly placed in Russia’s programme of coerced adoption and fostering

www.telegraph.co.uk

No one here defends that (just a hunch you are referring to me).

If you openly state that it is me, that would be both a lie and a slander.

But I expect you will hide behind vague accusations.

 

[IlovethePies]

Snyder is a defender of Ukrainian fascism.

 

[IlovethePies]

Western inaction and wet tissue response has elevated the risk of a nuclear exchange.through emboldening the antagonist.

Imo 'we could if we wanted to' IS a deployment of nuclear capability. The mere fact Russia can threaten the use of nukes and not immediately be summarily dismantled, is quite shameful.

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

So your "argument" is the following:

NATO and the US should have gone hell for leather to reduce the risk of a nuclear exchange

You are literally suggesting that NATO and the US should have ordered draconian measures early on, and now so called "dismantling measures" (...maybe a NATO nuclear attack??), in order to prevent Russia from threatening a nuclear attack.

That is how insane your reasoning is.

 

[IlovethePies]

So what's your point here? Sholz & Zelenkskyy have secret Nazi sympathies? This is ridicoulsy stupid. They are clearly at a shrine for the dead. And yes, there is a small Azov insignia, but come on. You're doing like some sort of reverse dog whitsle.

Putin is the fascist. Murders his oppostion. Changes laws to keep himself in power. Beleives in some wacko Russian spirit, a great Russian Empire, and twists history to lay claim to Ukraine, and its people, saying they are bound together. Well, it's pretty clear they don't want to bound to Russia.

You won't admit, you'll say something like 'Oh no, I just want peace'. But you're disinformation and bullshit has you on the side of the fascists.

No way there can be peace under capitalism.
The only way this conflict can be resolved is through the abolition of capitalism. Ukrainian and Russian working class have to fight their real enemies: the Putin and Zelensky governments.

As for palming off the display of an SS based insignia as "nothing", that is absurd. You draw absolutely nothing from the fact that Scholz- the head of the German government - allows himself to be photographed with a Nazi insignia on display - given the history of Germany!!

Then you have the audacity to accuse me of defending fascism!! Look in the mirror mate

 

[IlovethePies]

The insanity of some of the reasoning on this thread is really quite frightening.

During the COLD war period, the MAD doctrine regulated the threat of nuclear war. Mutually Assured Destruction.The the US and the Soviet Union agreed to self-restraint, because there was an understanding that otherwise a nuclear war would result in the annihilation of the planet.

The possiblity of the US arming a country to fire missiles onto Russian territory at that time would have been ridiculed as a Dr Strangelove type of policy. It was assumed by everyone that such a decision would have meant the elimination not just of capitalism but of all mankind.

Yet now, we have reached a situation in which Biden has authorised the use of missiles into Russian territory. All the conceptions of the past have been junked, with no explanation as to why.

Suddenly, arming proxy forces to directly bombard Russian territory is fine, because Putin is "just bluffing". In other words, all the assumptions of MAD, which for a whole period dominated the foreign policy of all nuclear armed nations, have become a dead letter- with no justification/explanation to the world's population.

Lemmings jumping over a cliff.

 

[Mobbs]

So your "argument" is the following:

NATO and the US should have gone hell for leather to reduce the risk of a nuclear exchange

You are literally suggesting that NATO and the US should have ordered draconian measures early on, and now so called "dismantling measures" (...maybe a NATO nuclear attack??), in order to prevent Russia from threatening a nuclear attack.

That is how insane your reasoning is.

Yes absolutely. Russia have been murderous thugs and as soon as anyone so much as raises an eyebrow they threaten to pull out the nukes.

 

[IlovethePies]

Yes absolutely. Russia have been murderous thugs and as soon as anyone so much as raises an eyebrow they threaten to pull out the nukes.

Lemmings.cliff.

 

[IlovethePies]

Yes absolutely. Russia have been murderous thugs and as soon as anyone so much as raises an eyebrow they threaten to pull out the nukes.

So you are confirming in this reply to my post that you agree with a NATO nuclear attack on Russia? (That is the only logic I can draw from it).

 

[Mobbs]

.

So you are confirming in this reply to my post that you agree with a NATO nuclear attack on Russia? (That is the only logic I can draw from it).

Nope. Generalised elements of your post. But you are not worth a dot point reply.

 

[wannabejack]

Snyder is a defender of Ukrainian fascism.

 

[IlovethePies]

.
Nope. Generalised elements of your post. But you are not worth a dot point reply.

Sure. Because you have no dots, nor points.

 

[IlovethePies]

View attachment 2181863View attachment 2181864

Point? Did you read what he said?

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

The insanity of some of the reasoning on this thread is really quite frightening.

During the COLD war period, the MAD doctrine regulated the threat of nuclear war. Mutually Assured Destruction.The the US and the Soviet Union agreed to self-restraint, because there was an understanding that otherwise a nuclear war would result in the annihilation of the planet.

The possiblity of the US arming a country to fire missiles onto Russian territory at that time would have been ridiculed as a Dr Strangelove type of policy. It was assumed by everyone that such a decision would have meant the elimination not just of capitalism but of all mankind.

Yet now, we have reached a situation in which Biden has authorised the use of missiles into Russian territory. All the conceptions of the past have been junked, with no explanation as to why.

Suddenly, arming proxy forces to directly bombard Russian territory is fine, because Putin is "just bluffing". In other words, all the assumptions of MAD, which for a whole period dominated the foreign policy of all nuclear armed nations, have become a dead letter- with no justification/explanation to the world's population.

Lemmings jumping over a cliff.

Go to bed

 

[IlovethePies]

Go to bed

But can you actually answer my arguments?

I'll await your brilliant refutation, maybe tomorrow after you've had a good night's sleep.

 

[wannabejack]

Point? Did you read what he said?

One is a Marxist the other is a historian.
Think I might go to bed.

 

[IlovethePies]

One is a Marxist the other is a historian.

marxists are historians. They are the true historians, because they are completely independent of, and opposed to, the capitalist ruling elite.

Snyder is a bought and sold propaganda agent for US imperialism. He decided many years ago to repudiate all his former principles, so that he could ingratiate himself to the elite.

Hence, his promotion, honours and considerable accumulation of wealth.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

But can you actually answer my arguments?

I'll await your brilliant refutation, maybe tomorrow after you've had a good night's sleep.

Try telling a Ukrainian they are fighting a proxy war for America. It’s condescending crap.
They are arming a country fighting for their survival

 

[Chadwiko]

 

[Dirty Bird]

.
Nope. Generalised elements of your post. But you are not worth a dot point reply.

I wouldn't even say he's worth that

 

[Jamolad]

Look, I am totally behind giving Ukraine the military support it desperately needs, but inflicting Tucker on the Russian population, even for a short period of time, is below the belt and a red-line that should not have been crossed.