Politics Violence against Nazis, acceptable?

[evolved2]

The problem with this argument is doesnt someone automatically become a safety threat to others if they identify as a Nazi?

How can someone believe in Nazi ideology and not be a safety threat to innocent others?

While I agree, the threat should be dealt with by government and/or police rather than us.

 

[CM86]

I'm not sure what you mean. I don't support behaviour of the man who's pushing protestors and I wouldn't support unnecessary violence against him.

What are the legal options? Is a citizens arrest an option or waiting for the police? If not, the protestors are best off walking away. Violence should be last resort.

OK.
What's your honest opinion on a scenario where activists are holding up traffic to protest Woodside?

 

[Engimal v3]

What IS something that could bring you to violence, or to support violence?

Carnies

 

[CM86]

Carnies

Reported.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-23/show-family-come-to-sydney-show-for-life-on-the-road/11035318

'Don't call us Carnies': What life is like behind the scenes at the Royal Easter Show​

​

They are what some call 'carnies' — although that's a dirty word in their caravan — and their home this week is Sydney's Royal Easter Show.​

​

"Don't call us Carnies, we don't like that word," Elwin's wife, Selina, says.​

​

"We're not carnies — we're show people, or showies."​

Nice work. You've just found a spot on the punch list!

 

[Engimal v3]

Yes, that's why I keep asking you.

Because if we can find a baseline, we could start to find a position of understanding.

Because if you acknowledge that there IS something that COULD bring you to violence, or COULD bring you to support violence, then you'd have to acknowledge that it is reasonable that some people support violence against nazis.

This is why I find it some of the earlier posts regarding the video I posted disingenuous, saying the issue in the video isn't that he's a Nazi but because he's violent - and then turning around and saying punching Nazis is acceptable.

People are so afraid of being a hypocrite, when in reality no one's personal views would hold consistent under examination. It's bizarre when we're talking about Nazis, because I'm pretty sure most people are aligned that Nazis suck - you don't need to be coy or perform a bunch of mental gymnastics to say so.

 

[Engimal v3]

Reported.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-23/show-family-come-to-sydney-show-for-life-on-the-road/11035318

'Don't call us Carnies': What life is like behind the scenes at the Royal Easter Show​

​

They are what some call 'carnies' — although that's a dirty word in their caravan — and their home this week is Sydney's Royal Easter Show.​

​

"Don't call us Carnies, we don't like that word," Elwin's wife, Selina, says.​

​

"We're not carnies — we're show people, or showies."​

Nice work. You've just found a spot on the punch list!

 

[evolved2]

Yes, that's why I keep asking you.

Because if we can find a baseline, we could start to find a position of understanding.

Because if you acknowledge that there IS something that COULD bring you to violence, or COULD bring you to support violence, then you'd have to acknowledge that it is reasonable that some people support violence against nazis.

I would want to be violent towards someone who sufficiently hurt a loved one - rape, child abuse, etc...but I also recognise legitimate reasons why I shouldn't.

In civilised society, we have legal systems, government, and police to deal with matters that require justice and protection of citizens. While the systems are flawed, the vast majority of people accept the benefits of being a part of Australian society outweigh the imperfections and costs.

It's a sign of maturity to be able to deal with problems without resorting to violence. Boys often punch on in school yards, but we grow out of it. Right?

I'd view someone who hit a nazi as being immature and potentially dangerous - someone that can't restrain themselves around others who hold offensive views may be violent in other circumstances. What happens when their partner offends them?

 

[CM86]

 

[evolved2]

OK.
What's your honest opinion on a scenario where activists are holding up traffic to protest Woodside?

I don't agree with their actions, but I wouldn't be violent towards the protestors.

 

[CM86]

I would want to be violent towards someone who sufficiently hurt a loved one - rape, child abuse, etc...but I also recognise legitimate reasons why I shouldn't.

In civilised society, we have legal systems, government, and police to deal with matters that require justice and protection of citizens. While the systems are flawed, the vast majority of people accept the benefits of being a part of Australian society outweigh the imperfections and costs.

It's a sign of maturity to be able to deal with problems without resorting to violence. Boys often punch on in school yards, but we grow out of it. Right?

I'd view someone who hit a nazi as being immature and potentially dangerous - someone that can't restrain themselves around others who hold offensive views may be violent in other circumstances. What happens when their partner offends them?

But do you understand what you're doing here?



You're talking about the concept of someone voicing that they COULD be brought to violence against a Nazi.
But you're reacting to it as though they HAVE been violent, and that it cannot just be a concept because concepts lead to actions.
So you're judging it on the metric of it having happened.

With the Nazi, we're talking about the concept of someone wanting to harm/destroy/eradicate men, women, children, babies etc purely for their skin colour, gender, sexuality etc
But you're reacting to it as though it is only a concept that could never happen.
So you're judging it as purely a concept that could never happen.


So when you compare the two, one is calling for violence while the other is simply free speech.

 

[Seeds]

While I agree, the threat should be dealt with by government and/or police rather than us.

Yes it should be dealt by government/police. But if there are people identifying as Nazis in close proximity of people of certain races/religions and no police around then those self identifying Nazis probably need to be considered an immediate safety threat in the same way anyone identifying as belonging to a terrorist group would.

 

[jatz14]

Yeah, I believe the quote was: "Nothing and no one can prevent the possibility that he is gay and when he grows up he gets tired of sucking black c**k".

He was pointing out in a cude way the problem with being a committed homophobe with children, or with any extended family for that matter.

No matter how much you love your family, or how much you hate gays, people in your family might turn out to be gay.

And if he drove 6 hours to punch a guy for making a joke that his kid could grow up gay, what happens to his kid, if he in fact turns out to be gay?

I recall jokes between guys at the footy club about the secual future of their young kids, with no violence ensuing.

Seems like a story about a homophobe nazi, homophobing and naziing to me?

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[jatz14]

I don't really see that as much of a mitigating factor lol

"Anthony, your infant daughter is going to get railed so hard when she's of legal age. Wait - stop hitting me! I said when she's of legal age! Aargh!!"

And what are you going to do to her when she grows up and decides she in fact, likes picking up guys at nightclubs?

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[evolved2]

But do you understand what you're doing here?

I don't agree with your assessment of what I'm doing.

You're talking about the concept of someone voicing that they COULD be brought to violence against a Nazi.
But you're reacting to it as though they HAVE been violent, and that it cannot just be a concept because concepts lead to actions.
So you're judging it on the metric of it having happened.

With the Nazi, we're talking about the concept of someone wanting to harm/destroy/eradicate men, women, children, babies etc purely for their skin colour, gender, sexuality etc
But you're reacting to it as though it is only a concept that could never happen.
So you're judging it as purely a concept that could never happen.


So when you compare the two, one is calling for violence while the other is simply free speech.

If it's just a figure of speech as in someone having a punchable face, I can get behind that. Nazis are punchable! If it's a legitimate want to hit people for having offensive views, everything I've said stands.

Identity, thoughts and even words aren't a reason for violence.

Free speech is becoming a genuine issue; I've seen SRP progressives complain about government infringement on their rights as protesters too. In general, I value free speech more than most - say what you want, believe what you want, and avoid it if you're offended. There are some exceptions though, and Nazism probably falls under that umbrella along with some forms of religious extremism that venture into violence.

I'm not sure where I draw the line in respect to Nazis; you could probably twist me into some level of hypocrisy if you pushed far enough. Irrespective, I'd rather err on the side of caution when infringing on free speech.

 

[Gralin]

Just on a related point, a lot of these Nazi types appear to be juiceheads and train boxing or other martial arts, so you may want to think twice about just going up to one and having a swing.

because their end goal involves violence and intimidation is useful while they don't have the numbers

these guys are preparing for violence, if the left are busy sitting around saying they would never hit anyone and its up the cops to protect us (lol btw) then its going to get real ugly if they do get the numbers

While I agree, the threat should be dealt with by government and/or police rather than us.

and if they are in the government and the police force?

what is legal is never a good moral bar for anyone

it was legal to discriminate by race

it was legal to discriminate by sexuality

the nazis were in power in germany and what they did was legal at the time in their country

morality and the law are two different things

governments are making it illegal to protest or act on climate change, if you follow the law there you're basically saying you won't do anything to stop the planet being a deathtrap for your kids because the government and cops say you can't

the cops don't turn up at nazi rallies to do anything about the nazi rallies

they turn up to stop the counter protestors kicking their teeth in while they are grossly outnumbered

which lets them recruit btw

 

[Gralin]

the state does not see white supremacy or fascism as the enemy

 

[CM86]

I don't agree with your assessment of what I'm doing.

If it's just a figure of speech as in someone having a punchable face, I can get behind that. Nazis are punchable! If it's a legitimate want to hit people for having offensive views, everything I've said stands.

Identity, thoughts and even words aren't a reason for violence.

Free speech is becoming a genuine issue; I've seen SRP progressives complain about government infringement on their rights as protesters too. In general, I value free speech more than most - say what you want, believe what you want, and avoid it if you're offended. There are some exceptions though, and Nazism probably falls under that umbrella along with some forms of religious extremism that venture into violence.

I'm not sure where I draw the line in respect to Nazis; you could probably twist me into some level of hypocrisy if you pushed far enough. Irrespective, I'd rather err on the side of caution when infringing on free speech.

I do understand your position. I don't know how to clearly explain mine.

I'll put out an example of the nazi vs the anti-nazi to try and show how I view you're treating this.


Nazi: "I believe we should mutilate, kill and wipe out people with coloured skin, any LGBTQ+ and any collection of people that we deem as vermin. No matter how much they try to hide, we will hunt them down. And anyone who helps them will be made examples of." <------ Free speech.

Anti-Nazi: "I believe that you should punch nazis in the face." <----- Not free speech, instead it's an unfathomable reaction that makes no sense, and is an attack of free speech.

 

[Engimal v3]

And what are you going to do to her when she grows up and decides she in fact, likes picking up guys at nightclubs?

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Drive 6 hours to punch her in the face

 

[CM86]

the state does not see white supremacy or fascism as the enemy

We've had neo-Nazis marching our streets, and the conversation was all around free speech, Voltaire and how it's not that big a deal.

Now we have people protesting the attacks in Gaza, and we're bringing in laws and structures to stop it.
Protesting against Israel, with Jews alongside them. Not protesting against Jews.
Wall to wall headlines of 'Jews not safe in Australia' for months. Then they do a survey and find an increasing number of Jews don't feel safe in Australia.

 

[Gralin]

We've had neo-Nazis marching our streets, and the conversation was all around free speech, Voltaire and how it's not that big a deal.

Now we have people protesting the attacks in Gaza, and we're bringing in laws and structures to stop it.
Protesting against Israel, with Jews alongside them. Not protesting against Jews.
Wall to wall headlines of 'Jews not safe in Australia' for months. Then they do a survey and find an increasing number of Jews don't feel safe in Australia.

There is certainly stuff going on that would make Zionists feel unsafe and we've also seen examples of things that would make anyone Jewish feel more unsafe, like people spray painting diejew on the wall of a Jewish school.

So its not like there aren't things happening that are legit reasons for Jewish people to feel unsafe.

But the same courtesy in the media is not extended to Muslims regarding their safety right now.

Or about what happens to people who speak up publicly in defense of Palestine or against the actions of the state of Israel itself

It's fertile ground for actual nazis to go out and do their thing in

 

[evolved2]

I do understand your position. I don't know how to clearly explain mine.

I'll put out an example of the nazi vs the anti-nazi to try and show how I view you're treating this.


Nazi: "I believe we should mutilate, kill and wipe out people with coloured skin, any LGBTQ+ and any collection of people that we deem as vermin. No matter how much they try to hide, we will hunt them down. And anyone who helps them will be made examples of." <------ Free speech.

Anti-Nazi: "I believe that you should punch nazis in the face." <----- Not free speech, instead it's an unfathomable reaction that makes no sense, and is an attack of free speech.

I haven't reported this thread or any poster for wanting to punch Nazis. I probably wouldn't even step in to stop any fight that ensued. I just find it weird for any normal person to want to punch another over something as small as identity or their beliefs and values. IOW I'm not against free speech for anyone wanting to punch Nazis.

My focus is more on action than thoughts, words or identity. If a nazi thinks I'm scum who deserves to die or a religious person thinks I deserve to be tortured for eternity, zero ****s given. They can protest and tell me that I'm less than, again zero ****s. We're adults - sticks and stones, yeah?

Actions are what count. Bombing abortion clinics, punching people without adequate cause, beating up people for being gay, etc - that's what I'm more interested in. That's where it becomes an issue for me.

 

[the_interloper]

We've had neo-Nazis marching our streets, and the conversation was all around free speech, Voltaire and how it's not that big a deal.

Now we have people protesting the attacks in Gaza, and we're bringing in laws and structures to stop it.
Protesting against Israel, with Jews alongside them. Not protesting against Jews.
Wall to wall headlines of 'Jews not safe in Australia' for months. Then they do a survey and find an increasing number of Jews don't feel safe in Australia.

I think a fair bit of the conversation was also around them being ****wits as well.

 

[CM86]

I haven't reported this thread or any poster for wanting to punch Nazis. I probably wouldn't even step in to stop any fight that ensued. I just find it weird for any normal person to want to punch another over something as small as identity or their beliefs and values. IOW I'm not against free speech for anyone wanting to punch Nazis.

My focus is more on action than thoughts, words or identity. If a nazi thinks I'm scum who deserves to die or a religious person thinks I deserve to be tortured for eternity, zero ****s given. They can protest and tell me that I'm less than, again zero ****s. We're adults - sticks and stones, yeah?

Actions are what count. Bombing abortion clinics, punching people without adequate cause, beating up people for being gay, etc - that's what I'm more interested in. That's where it becomes an issue for me.

That's what I'm trying to explain.

You're treating the concept of violence against a nazi as an action, not just thoughts, words or concepts.
You're treating the concept of nazism as just thoughts, words and a concept that do NOT have an action.




Even in this post, you're talking about ACTIONS you haven't taken in regards to reducing 'free speech'. But you're explaining your opposition to the concept of violence against Nazis, in that there is something personally wrong with any individual who would think it.
While dismissing and diminishing the very real thoughts and intentions of neo-Nazis as merely words that have no impact.

 

[CM86]

I think a fair bit of the conversation was also around them being ****wits as well.

Yes...

Bunch of ****wits. Just a small group of idiots. Handful of dickheads. Bit of a campaigner.
Something you can really shake your head at.
But at the end of the day it doesn't mean anything. Just a couple of lads.


But these people protesting the ongoing slaughter of Palestinians... Well that's serious and we need to urgently bring in new laws and security measures to address this danger.

 

[the_interloper]

Yes...

Bunch of ****wits. Just a small group of idiots. Handful of dickheads. Bit of a campaigner.
Something you can really shake your head at.
But at the end of the day it doesn't mean anything. Just a couple of lads.


But these people protesting the ongoing slaughter of Palestinians... Well that's serious and we need to urgently bring in new laws and security measures to address this danger.

Well how many Nazis rock up to protests, 20? And there's in the realm of thousands of Palestinian supporters at protests I imagine, wouldn't you think you might need more police resources at those demonstrations?