Restricted Free Agent Tom De Koning

[Jeremias]

This thread might be going for a while. Please respect board rules and each other.

As a starting point, let's leave any references to 'culture' at the door.

Thread bans and infractions will be handed out as necessary.

Thanks.

 

[projectv]

Assume they land him, whats the plan with TDK and Marshall, is it a 50/50 ruck split?

Marshall was originally brought in as a forward, so I'd imagine he'd play forward a lot more.

 

[projectv]

You really struggle with basic comprehension.
Never said Marshall would come. Just that we'd likely ask for him as part of the trade. Guarantee you the Saints would entertain that idea. They should be sacked if they don't. Would then be up to Blues and Saints to convince him to make the move. He's hardly going to say that he'd want to leave if you got Tom. There's too much water to go under the bridge before it gets to that point.

What don't you get about the matching thing?
It will be a simple convo between our list management team, Tom's agent and Tom. This is our biggest offer, we simply aren't giving you $1.7m. If that's what you want, you'll have to get it from the Saints, but we won't be letting you go for compo. We'll be matching and forcing a trade, but that offer is not on the table for you to take. You will ONLY be getting $1.7m from the Saints.
Tom and his agent will either agree on a match and trade, or take Carlton's lower offer.

There won't be a trade. Carlton won't match. They can't afford to. Who are you moving on to have the cash to match an offer that might just be rejected anyway? You could end up shifting McKay and be left holding the bag paying TDK 1.7mil.

 

[sexyhunk]

There won't be a trade. Carlton won't match. They can't afford to. Who are you moving on to have the cash to match an offer that might just be rejected anyway? You could end up shifting McKay and be left holding the bag paying TDK 1.7mil.

even if they move mckay, they will pay a portion of the salary as not a lot of team just have 1 mill free space ready to be absorb by a guy getting pushed out.

 

[jh38]

You really struggle with basic comprehension.
Never said Marshall would come. Just that we'd likely ask for him as part of the trade. Guarantee you the Saints would entertain that idea. They should be sacked if they don't. Would then be up to Blues and Saints to convince him to make the move. He's hardly going to say that he'd want to leave if you got Tom. There's too much water to go under the bridge before it gets to that point.

What don't you get about the matching thing?
It will be a simple convo between our list management team, Tom's agent and Tom. This is our biggest offer, we simply aren't giving you $1.7m. If that's what you want, you'll have to get it from the Saints, but we won't be letting you go for compo. We'll be matching and forcing a trade, but that offer is not on the table for you to take. You will ONLY be getting $1.7m from the Saints.
Tom and his agent will either agree on a match and trade, or take Carlton's lower offer.

You can't match an offer without having the funds to pay for it.

 

[stavro#4]

You really struggle with basic comprehension.
Never said Marshall would come. Just that we'd likely ask for him as part of the trade. Guarantee you the Saints would entertain that idea. They should be sacked if they don't. Would then be up to Blues and Saints to convince him to make the move. He's hardly going to say that he'd want to leave if you got Tom. There's too much water to go under the bridge before it gets to that point.

What don't you get about the matching thing?
It will be a simple convo between our list management team, Tom's agent and Tom. This is our biggest offer, we simply aren't giving you $1.7m. If that's what you want, you'll have to get it from the Saints, but we won't be letting you go for compo. We'll be matching and forcing a trade, but that offer is not on the table for you to take. You will ONLY be getting $1.7m from the Saints.
Tom and his agent will either agree on a match and trade, or take Carlton's lower offer.

St Kilda want to play both.

Carlton fans can make up any narrative. Yours is now you’ll ask for Marshall and you want to guarantee me the saints will accept

There is so much straw clutching here.

There are 2 outcomes.

He stays at Carlton on more than currently offered or he joins the saints on a mammoth 1.7m as an RFA.

You won’t be trading someone like McKay. You won’t be gutting senior blokes who are in your best 23 to match a bid for a better return.

 

[marcus1232]

Along way to go on this and we have been used in the past as leverage so will be interesting watch.

Would rather we lock down NAS first on a lot of years and a lot of money

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

There won't be a trade. Carlton won't match. They can't afford to. Who are you moving on to have the cash to match an offer that might just be rejected anyway? You could end up shifting McKay and be left holding the bag paying TDK 1.7mil.

The money side has already been covered by Forty3. We won't be matching with the intention of keeping him. We will only match if he is committed to taking the Saints deal, to force a trade.

You can't match an offer without having the funds to pay for it.

Already covered by Forty3.

St Kilda want to play both.

Carlton fans can make up any narrative. Yours is now you’ll ask for Marshall and you want to guarantee me the saints will accept

There is so much straw clutching here.

There are 2 outcomes.

He stays at Carlton on more than currently offered or he joins the saints on a mammoth 1.7m as an RFA.

You won’t be trading someone like McKay. You won’t be gutting senior blokes who are in your best 23 to match a bid for a better return.

Now I'm 100% convinced that your comprehension levels are that of a kinder student.

There's zero clutching at straws. There's hypotheticals. That's all.

I NEVER said Saints would accept. I said they would ENTERTAIN the idea. This is one of a number of hypothetical situations.
If Tom wants the big bucks from Saints and Blues aren't happy with the compo and match to force a trade, the Saints will need to find some reasonable trade collateral. I have no doubt that Saints would love to keep and play both Tom and Marshall, but they may not be able to if they can't meet some potential trade costs.
The Blues would be losing Tom and left with Pitto as our only ruck option. He's a capable ruck, but less dynamic in every area compared to Tom, and struggles to stay on the field, so Blues would be looking for a replacement and asking to include Marshall is the most obvious option and would reduce the assets that Saints need to find to get it done. It might be ideal for the Saints, but it would be entertained as a way of getting Tom in the door, assuming Blues and Saints could convince him to leave.

 

[stavro#4]

The money side has already been covered by Forty3. We won't be matching with the intention of keeping him. We will only match if he is committed to taking the Saints deal, to force a trade.



Already covered by Forty3.


Now I'm 100% convinced that your comprehension levels are that of a kinder student.

There's zero clutching at straws. There's hypotheticals. That's all.

I NEVER said Saints would accept. I said they would ENTERTAIN the idea. This is one of a number of hypothetical situations.
If Tom wants the big bucks from Saints and Blues aren't happy with the compo and match to force a trade, the Saints will need to find some reasonable trade collateral. I have no doubt that Saints would love to keep and play both Tom and Marshall, but they may not be able to if they can't meet some potential trade costs.
The Blues would be losing Tom and left with Pitto as our only ruck option. He's a capable ruck, but less dynamic in every area compared to Tom, and struggles to stay on the field, so Blues would be looking for a replacement and asking to include Marshall is the most obvious option and would reduce the assets that Saints need to find to get it done. It might be ideal for the Saints, but it would be entertained as a way of getting Tom in the door, assuming Blues and Saints could convince him to leave.

You said this

“Guarantee you the Saints would entertain that idea.”

No the saints would not entertain Marshall for TDK. Are you nuts?

And again you can believe a scenario that Carlton will clear cap space to match to force a better trade.

Completely flys in the face of the fact that the players preference is to stay and get paid by Carlton.

If you match. He will stay. It can’t be any clearer. If you offered him 1.7m today there wouldn’t be a discussion. He would sign

 

[THE_GUN]

The difference with Martin was we actually offered a fair trade deal on him.
GC just decided for some reason that THIS was the deal they were going to put their foot down and demand more than what's fair.
Probably because the AFL handed them a bunch of picks and they didn't really need ours.

The difference with your argument is what appeared to be a fair deal was not a fair deal in the GC eyes and thats ok and no debating that. But there are differences of value we see that all the time and the most recent example is Bailey Smith.

But that doesn't eliminate the fact that SOS could very well see a top 10 pick being of fair value but Carlton could want more and a stalemate occurs and and things get drawn out.
im sure port also didnt feel the trade value was sufficient for houston.
but as you guys would know very well SOS will not be an easy person to deal with

 

[ferrisb]

Geelong have never looked to concerned with having an elite ruckman when was there last one a prime Steven king a while ago , I highly doubt they will pay over a million dollars a season to bring one in , tdk would have to take significant unders to go there which at his age I don’t think he does

If Tom went to Geelong I assume lifestyle would be a major factor.

I think he dreams about surfing 24/7.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

You said this

“Guarantee you the Saints would entertain that idea.”

FMD!
Are you deliberately being dumb?

Yes, that's what I said. The problem is, you don't seem to understand what it means, despite having it explained.

No the saints would not entertain Marshall for TDK. Are you nuts?

Yes, they would. If they didn't, they shouldn't be in the role. You guys would be getting TDK, have a number of young rucks on your list, already have one 200cm+ forward and a number of 190cm+ forwards. In an ideal world, you would keep Marshall, but from a business perspective, he would be viewed as potential surplus and an asset with a reasonable value.
They would absolutely consider it. They would likely try and steer us to a different player, but at the same time asking Marshall if he would be open to a move. That's just the way the AFL works these days.

And again you can believe a scenario that Carlton will clear cap space to match to force a better trade.

Whether or not we have the ability to free up space to match, neither of us know, but Forty3 has indicated that we can and will, if it comes to that. I would take his knowledge of this situation over anyone's. He is a very well regarded in the know poster on the Carlton board, with plenty of runs on the board.

Completely flys in the face of the fact that the players preference is to stay and get paid by Carlton.

If you match. He will stay. It can’t be any clearer. If you offered him 1.7m today there wouldn’t be a discussion. He would sign

Again, this has been explained multiple times, and not just by me.
Tom and his manager will fully understand and agree to the fact that if we match to force a trade, it is NOT an actual contract offer. We won't match without Tom and his agent understanding and agreeing to that.


Don't bother responding again until you can comprehend the words in front of you.

 

[THE_GUN]

Looking at the $$$ not just for TDK but also the other players St Kilda has been linked to so far
They must have massive cap space banked the last few years.

Has the banking of cap space changed at all ? I believe it used to be 5% for 3 years in past years but not sure if that had been changed . I wondered whats the most amount they could possibly have banked to have this much to pay all these players they are chasing.

 

[Dogflogger]

FMD!
Are you deliberately being dumb?

Yes, that's what I said. The problem is, you don't seem to understand what it means, despite having it explained.



Yes, they would. If they didn't, they shouldn't be in the role. You guys would be getting TDK, have a number of young rucks on your list, already have one 200cm+ forward and a number of 190cm+ forwards. In an ideal world, you would keep Marshall, but from a business perspective, he would be viewed as potential surplus and an asset with a reasonable value.
They would absolutely consider it. They would likely try and steer us to a different player, but at the same time asking Marshall if he would be open to a move. That's just the way the AFL works these days.



Whether or not we have the ability to free up space to match, neither of us know, but Forty3 has indicated that we can and will, if it comes to that. I would take his knowledge of this situation over anyone's. He is a very well regarded in the know poster on the Carlton board, with plenty of runs on the board.



Again, this has been explained multiple times, and not just by me.
Tom and his manager will fully understand and agree to the fact that if we match to force a trade, it is NOT an actual contract offer. We won't match without Tom and his agent understanding and agreeing to that.


Don't bother responding again until you can comprehend the words in front of you.

Free agency is about paying overs to get players from other clubs, Why would we pay overs and trade away assets?
That seems demented from a list management point of view.

 

[jh38]

Yes, they would. If they didn't, they shouldn't be in the role. You guys would be getting TDK, have a number of young rucks on your list, already have one 200cm+ forward and a number of 190cm+ forwards. In an ideal world, you would keep Marshall, but from a business perspective, he would be viewed as potential surplus and an asset with a reasonable value.
They would absolutely consider it. They would likely try and steer us to a different player, but at the same time asking Marshall if he would be open to a move. That's just the way the AFL works these days.

We played our best footy in 2020 when we had 2 rucks. If we land TDK, Marshall becomes a huge point of difference for us, he'll be a monster key forward that'll play 30% ruck.

Boyd is on a one year deal, and then we have 2 developing rucks in the wings waiting. Would be negligent list management from us to trade Marshall away.

 

[stavro#4]

Free agency is about paying overs to get players from other clubs, Why would we pay overs and trade away assets?
That seems demented from a list management point of view.

We played our best footy in 2020 when we had 2 rucks. If we land TDK, Marshall becomes a huge point of difference for us, he'll be a monster key forward that'll play 30% ruck.

Boyd is on a one year deal, and then we have 2 developing rucks in the wings waiting. Would be negligent list management from us to trade Marshall away.

No guys. Don’t you know that we will agree to trade Marshall because it’s TDK and it makes no sense for us to have both players.

It’s the absolutely idiotic take I’ve seen.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Free agency is about paying overs to get players from other clubs, Why would we pay overs and trade away assets?
That seems demented from a list management point of view.

And restricted free agency is about clubs getting fair compensation for players who aren't unrestricted.
Why would a club allow a best 22 player to walk for the AFL's stupid compo pick, when he's being offered the biggest ever contract and is worth at least 2x 1st rounders? Seems demented from a list management point of view...
It goes both ways.

 

[stavro#4]

FMD!
Are you deliberately being dumb?

Yes, that's what I said. The problem is, you don't seem to understand what it means, despite having it explained.



Yes, they would. If they didn't, they shouldn't be in the role. You guys would be getting TDK, have a number of young rucks on your list, already have one 200cm+ forward and a number of 190cm+ forwards. In an ideal world, you would keep Marshall, but from a business perspective, he would be viewed as potential surplus and an asset with a reasonable value.
They would absolutely consider it. They would likely try and steer us to a different player, but at the same time asking Marshall if he would be open to a move. That's just the way the AFL works these days.



Whether or not we have the ability to free up space to match, neither of us know, but Forty3 has indicated that we can and will, if it comes to that. I would take his knowledge of this situation over anyone's. He is a very well regarded in the know poster on the Carlton board, with plenty of runs on the board.



Again, this has been explained multiple times, and not just by me.
Tom and his manager will fully understand and agree to the fact that if we match to force a trade, it is NOT an actual contract offer. We won't match without Tom and his agent understanding and agreeing to that.


Don't bother responding again until you can comprehend the words in front of you.

I understand what it means and it’s beyond nuts.

We want both. You can ask for whatever you want. You won’t be getting anything off us. This is about getting TDK as a free agent - hence the significant overpaying.

If you match he stays.

If he leaves. He will be playing with Marshall. He was literally interviewed today saying he would play forward if he needed to.

There isn’t an issue here other then this nuts talk from you and other Carlton supporters telling me and other saints fans that:

• 3 first round picks for TDK
• you’ll ask for Marshall and we will trade him
• you’ll bin off a number of players to match a deal for a player you don’t want to keep but to force us to trade.

It really makes no sense.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

We played our best footy in 2020 when we had 2 rucks. If we land TDK, Marshall becomes a huge point of difference for us, he'll be a monster key forward that'll play 30% ruck.

Boyd is on a one year deal, and then we have 2 developing rucks in the wings waiting. Would be negligent list management from us to trade Marshall away.

Which is all completely fine and reasonable from the Saints perspective.
From Carlton's perspective, it would be negligent list management to not try and get an established ruck back in any potential deal.

In an ideal world, Saints keep TDK and Marshall, while Blues get fair market value for one of the best players going around who has just been offered the biggest contract ever.
But it's not an ideal world. If it gets to the point where a trade is forced, it's doubtful the Saints will have enough draft assets to satisfy a deal, so they will possibly have to look at moving someone on that they don't want to, just like we will be.

You may have played your best footy back then with 2 rucks, but Ross wasn't the coach then, so it means nothing.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

If you're a player like Patrick Cripps or Charlie Curnow and you've busted ur ass for a decade to try and save this club from eternal shiteness, and the club come to you and say look we know ur on probably 1-1.2mil a year and you've earned a truckload of cash over the years playing in a pathetic team... Would you be okay with us back ending the absolute crap out of your contract so we can match a bid on TDK and force a trade for adequate compensation because he's told us he's committed to going to the Saints and we'll only get one sorry pick for him via FA compo...

Do you think a player like Cripps or Curnow are gonna say no, I want all my money paid evenly spaced across the next 3-5 years of my deal and TDK can walk out the door for a single pick which would essentially destroy any chance we have of using the TDK picks and $ to target some other players and try to get back to contending in finals?

Cause at the moment the only issues Carlton would have with matching the contract is the next 1-2 years. The rest would be no issue at all as 3/4 of our list don't have contracts for those years.

 

[Dogflogger]

And restricted free agency is about clubs getting fair compensation for players who aren't unrestricted.
Why would a club allow a best 22 player to walk for the AFL's stupid compo pick, when he's being offered the biggest ever contract and is worth at least 2x 1st rounders? Seems demented from a list management point of view...
It goes both ways.

i"m not arguing against Carlton matching and keeping him. Just seems crazy that we would pay 1.7m and trade away a good player or high draft picks. the premium you pay for free agents is to counteract not losing players or picks. we are a shit team when it comes to FA's we often pay crazy premiums but this seems a bit too much even for the saints.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

If De Koning gets 9 years 15 mill can Carlton get multiple picks as compensation?

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

If De Koning gets 9 years 15 mill can Carlton get multiple picks as compensation?

No, just the 1

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

i"m not arguing against Carlton matching and keeping him. Just seems crazy that we would pay 1.7m and trade away a good player or high draft picks. the premium you pay for free agents is to counteract not losing players or picks. we are a shit team when it comes to FA's we often pay crazy premiums but this seems a bit too much even for the saints.

Because that's how the system works. If we match it and TDK has committed to going the Saints have to come to the trade table with adequate compensation.

He's not unrestricted.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

No, just the 1

Absurd when you think about it.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Absurd when you think about it.

Buddy went for pick 19 or something stupid from memory.

There should be something on top of band 1 for deals like this or GAJ, Buddy etc. Not to say Tommy is in their bracket as a player at all, but 1 compo pick isn't gonna do SFA for us compared to keeping him.