Roast Stop Gunstoning Curtin, morons

[NSolis]

Who's asking that we should be tough and uncompromising on future elites contracts?

Or do you think locking in long term big money deals to the like of Laird is the same?

Talking about stuff like this post about Max Holmes' contract at Geelong, though I don't mean to single out a single post: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...ttend-home-games.1379200/page-4#post-83239493

I actually think the sentiment behind the post is fine, but it did strike me as funny because if we messed around like that re-signing a young star player this board would absolutely blow up with people calling the club idiots for taking a risk with a good player etc.

The Laird situation is somewhat similar also in the sense that he was a key player in the club, would have been pushing for a great deal and we'd have been worried about losing him etc. I think the club somewhat messed up by not pushing back harder, and we'd be feeling that now if we were under salary cap stress. In order to set standards like that you do need to be willing to take some risks. Again, this is not an argument for not giving Curtin a game at all but I don't think you can operate a successful club if you are driven by fear that good players will leave if you expect things of them, which is basically the common theme in this thread.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Every successful sporting team ever has worried about retaining the players critical to their achieving success. I don't think the suggestion that this is somehow wrong is even worth discussion.

Where our club errs is in determining who those players are. It was never Rory Laird

29

Rory Laird

Age

30

Ht

177cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

25.4

5star

K

12.9

5star

HB

12.5

5star

M

5.4

5star

T

2.3

4star

CL

1.0

3star

D

19.6

5star

K

10.9

4star

HB

8.7

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

2.4

3star

CL

1.1

3star

D

14.6

4star

K

7.4

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

3.2

4star

T

4.0

5star

CL

0.4

3star

. It will never be Ned McHenry

25

Ned Mchenry

Age

23

Ht

179cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.7

2star

K

4.0

2star

HB

5.7

4star

M

2.5

3star

T

2.3

4star

G

0.0

1star

D

9.7

2star

K

4.0

1star

HB

5.7

3star

M

2.5

3star

T

2.3

3star

G

0.0

1star

D

10.0

3star

K

3.6

2star

HB

6.4

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.0

1star

.

 

[George Kramer]

'would you compromise 'selection integrity' at a 1-5 team to retain an elite young talent?'

How is this even a controversy. Of course you would.

And don't present the rest of the board as being emotional overreactors, while presenting nonsensical counter factuals about picking the best talents somehow ruining standards

Reckon you’re getting emotional

 

[George Kramer]

Talking about stuff like this post about Max Holmes' contract at Geelong, though I don't mean to single out a single post: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...ttend-home-games.1379200/page-4#post-83239493

I actually think the sentiment behind the post is fine, but it did strike me as funny because if we messed around like that re-signing a young star player this board would absolutely blow up with people calling the club idiots for taking a risk with a good player etc.

The Laird situation is somewhat similar also in the sense that he was a key player in the club, would have been pushing for a great deal and we'd have been worried about losing him etc. I think the club somewhat messed up by not pushing back harder, and we'd be feeling that now if we were under salary cap stress. In order to set standards like that you do need to be willing to take some risks. Again, this is not an argument for not giving Curtin a game at all but I don't think you can operate a successful club if you are driven by fear that good players will leave if you expect things of them, which is basically the common theme in this thread.

What the heck are you on about? You completely missed the context of my post.

It was comparing a strong club like Geelong who can afford to put contract talks of elite talent on hold until it suits them and they still won’t lose the player. A strong club that has players wanting to go there and play for them on lower contracts that they could get elsewhere.

Compared to our shitshow.

 

[baldandbroke]

I expect Curtin to be back in WA before Xmas

West Coast offer us their first rounder for him, we get Draper … then Welsh father-son.

Trade for Petty.

New coach, new bounce in 2025.

Hopefully we play the talent ahead of experience, would take an experienced coach with some cred to change the culture around selection at the Crows

Dreaming, for sure!

 

[Bob Neil]

Katrina Gill: The club has taken a strong stance against 'bottoming out' to gain high draft picks to 'rebuild'. Do you think the current draft system offers enough reward for teams who consistently finish in the middle band of positions on the ladder?

Trigg (from 2008): No, it doesn't, but that's the system. The continual tanking debate - you could go back into having a look at. I'm not promoting it, but we could look at a ballot system. That still doesn't get you around the perennial bottom sides' access to priority picks. I think we accept that if a club is really struggling over a period of time that the priority picks are, in whatever guise, fair.

You have a choice to make and we have a very simple philosophy. It's easier said than done, but we aim not to bottom out, not to strip the side back. We could've done that when Neil took over. We could've stripped the side out, because we had the oldest list in the competition, and said, 'right, we'll go into a genuine rebuilding phase'.

I don't like the term 'rebuilding' and I never have. I think players and staff hide behind that, so we would prefer to be well planned and to stay as competitive as we possibly can all the while trying to make the finals.

The experience for us, still in our hearts and minds, is that we weren't the best team in 1997 and 1998 through the minor round, but we got there and then got it right at the right time and that could still happen this year to any of the teams in the bottom part of the eight.

But you simply can't give yourself a crack at it if you're out of the eight, so our philosophy is to just keep planning, keep developing the list, keep managing out some of the seniority we think needs to be making way for the development aspect and to keep making the eight to give ourselves a chance.

Other clubs might have a different view to that, but that's ours and under this board and mine and Neil's regime, that's the way we would like it to be.

We mistook the exception(s) for the rule and founded an entire club's culture upon that misconception.

 

[chrisso crow]

I just don't see why we cant have him play in underperforming Smiths position.

Or as a Milera replacement ahead of Parnell and Hamill. The opportunity has been there to play him, just our pig-headed 'experts' don't want to.

 

[maxlilly]

Or as a Milera replacement ahead of Parnell and Hamill. The opportunity has been there to play him, just our pig-headed 'experts' don't want to.

Just imagine being pick # 8 and the club that drafted you are wanting to play 2 x rookie listed players in front of you in your position

 

[Jarman3]

You try telling Brodie Smith

33

Brodie Smith

Age

32

Ht

189cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.5

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

7.2

4star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.1

4star

MG

500.1

5star

D

17.1

4star

K

12.6

5star

HB

4.5

3star

M

3.5

3star

T

2.3

3star

MG

438.9

5star

D

17.2

5star

K

10.8

4star

HB

6.4

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

3.6

5star

he's not playing.

 

[cleanhands]

Development my **se Henley Sharks could do better

 

[NSolis]

What the * are you on about? You completely missed the context of my post.

It was comparing a strong club like Geelong who can afford to put contract talks of elite talent on hold until it suits them and they still won’t lose the player. A strong club that has players wanting to go there and play for them on lower contracts that they could get elsewhere.

Compared to our shitshow.

That's exactly what I thought you meant, yes. They are a club that is willing to take risks with management of talented players to benefit the club overall. Unless you're saying there is absolutely no risk at all putting off contract talks? They are confident they can retain Holmes and can undertake contract management on their terms, rather than being afraid they will lose good players if they don't give them exactly what they want. This compares poorly with some of our contract management in the past where I think we've tied ourselves to deals that don't look great in hindsight (Sloane and Laird the obvious ones).

I also think if, say, Rachele was coming out of contract and wanted a four year deal and we told him to wait until later in the year this board would be full of people who thought the club were a bunch of idiots for taking risks with a talented player. Not that we would - we'd jump at a four year deal of course. Ultimately though you have to have some level of faith that you've built a team that people want to play in, you can't run scared from the possibility that players might leave.

 

[George Kramer]

That's exactly what I thought you meant, yes. They are a club that is willing to take risks with management of talented players to benefit the club overall. Unless you're saying there is absolutely no risk at all putting off contract talks? They are confident they can retain Holmes and can undertake contract management on their terms, rather than being afraid they will lose good players if they don't give them exactly what they want. This compares poorly with some of our contract management in the past where I think we've tied ourselves to deals that don't look great in hindsight (Sloane and Laird the obvious ones).

I also think if, say, Rachele was coming out of contract and wanted a four year deal and we told him to wait until later in the year this board would be full of people who thought the club were a bunch of idiots for taking risks with a talented player. Not that we would - we'd jump at a four year deal of course. Ultimately though you have to have some level of faith that you've built a team that people want to play in, you can't run scared from the possibility that players might leave.

By your response you don’t get it, so you should delete your post

 

[Redleg Crow]

Said it elsewhere but will say it here again - you pick someone in the top 10 because you think they are elite. And elite players need to learn on the job in the AFL.

Second and third rounders can fight their way n to the side from the SANFL. Elite players get treated differently because they are elite. (and also you need to find out quickly if you got a dud)

 

[Haymo_of_thor]

Yep, and we also were unlucky that we drafted some disloyal, money hungry players

Whereas other clubs lucked out with loyal, one-club types who play for the pure love of the guernsey

this is a a big overstatement, the Crows drafted 4 interstate players in the 2000s who all played 245+ games and retired at the club (Douglas, Mackay, Sloane, Tex)

 

[ringo200]

We mistook the exception(s) for the rule and founded an entire club's culture upon that misconception.

I remember when Ayres left all the talk was how he had screwed our future by completely ignoring youth, didn't turn out to be true when Neil Craig took over and had us contending again straight away. Then the same comments with Craig, he'd ignored our youth and prefered the seniors and this was going to hurt us. Didn't end up true when Sanderson took over and had us contending again.

It would be easy for the club to take away from these experiences that perhaps the people talking doom and gloom about ignoring youth are overreacting. We got away with that mentality for a decade and it didn't leave us at the bottom of the ladder.

Perhaps with hindsight this was more due to having a freak group of stars like Goodwin, McLeod, Ricciuto, Hart, some of which were gained from draft pathways no longer available to us, and then again striking lucky with a particularly good batch of drafting around 07-09 which landed us Danger, Sloane, Walker from some pretty average draft picks. We haven't been able to repeat these yet.

 

[Minor Threat]

I also think Gunston seeking a trade back to Hawthorn after a year at Brisbane and a year to go on his contract speaks volumes on the character of the guy.

Yes we’re a rubbish club, but I don’t think we’re 100% to blame in the Gunston situation

 

[King Elvis]

I think this is more PTSD based than factual. There would be no world where Curtin will be walking around thinking he should be playing AFL.

Why not?

Pick 6, rated by some as the 2nd best player in the draft - everybody around him has already debut, our side is struggling and we're selecting guys we've dropped half a dozen times before. We pick a restricted Brodie Smith over him.

If I'm him, I'd absolutely be thinking I should be playing.

If WCE offered us their first this year, we should've taken it - seems like Curtin won't play this year anyway.

 

[Harris1991]

We mistook the exception(s) for the rule and founded an entire club's culture upon that misconception.

Any chance we can change it. Into our 3rd decade of this and it's getting really off now.

I don't see a challenge to the status quo anywhere on the horizon.

 

[Harris1991]

Why not?

Pick 6, rated by some as the 2nd best player in the draft - everybody around him has already debut, our side is struggling and we're selecting guys we've dropped half a dozen times before. We pick a restricted Brodie Smith over him.

If I'm him, I'd absolutely be thinking I should be playing.

If WCE offered us their first this year, we should've taken it - seems like Curtin won't play this year anyway.

Given we were willing to pay up big for JHF would at least indicate the club has accepted that the midfield is an area lacking in elite talent. Yet we recruit this kid, who has been touted as a potential midfield star, and then we play him deep in defense.

I would love to know the reasoning behind some of the decisions made by the football dept because they seem erratic and without logic or consistency.

 

[maxlilly]

Said it elsewhere but will say it here again - you pick someone in the top 10 because you think they are elite. And elite players need to learn on the job in the AFL.

Second and third rounders can fight their way n to the side from the SANFL. Elite players get treated differently because they are elite. (and also you need to find out quickly if you got a dud)

Good players have the ability to play most positions.
The team is crying out for a big bodied midfielder.
He's played midfield in his junior days, surely you try and develop him there first as that is the spot we are needing elite players

 

[adelaidecrows]

Good players have the ability to play most positions.
The team is crying out for a big bodied midfielder.
He's played midfield in his junior days, surely you try and develop him there first as that is the spot we are needing elite players

We don't have a lot of talls. Nicks would be desperate to have him in defence. Agree with your post though. Nicks will never run him in the midfield, at least not for his initial years.

 

[Samcro24]

Said it elsewhere but will say it here again - you pick someone in the top 10 because you think they are elite. And elite players need to learn on the job in the AFL.

Second and third rounders can fight their way n to the side from the SANFL. Elite players get treated differently because they are elite. (and also you need to find out quickly if you got a dud)

Can imagine Ben hart making his debut at 20 after a 3 year sanfl apprenticeship if he played today.

 

[Sanders]

If we were even remotely strong this year you could make an argument for keeping your senior players in and making the youth force their way in. But we're not.

I'm not saying you drop every senior player and play every youth, but you definitely start searching for opportunities to bring in your most talented youth. Smith, for example, is injured and out of form. Curtin could easily be put in his role.

Nick’s is coaching for his future. The only priority is today, this very minute

Even if Curtin etc was ready or near, he’s probably going to struggle unless he can affect the team and help it win now

There’s no development in Nicks’ mind at present

 

[Sanders]

I remember when Ayres left all the talk was how he had screwed our future by completely ignoring youth, didn't turn out to be true when Neil Craig took over and had us contending again straight away. Then the same comments with Craig, he'd ignored our youth and prefered the seniors and this was going to hurt us. Didn't end up true when Sanderson took over and had us contending again.

It would be easy for the club to take away from these experiences that perhaps the people talking doom and gloom about ignoring youth are overreacting. We got away with that mentality for a decade and it didn't leave us at the bottom of the ladder.

Perhaps with hindsight this was more due to having a freak group of stars like Goodwin, McLeod, Ricciuto, Hart, some of which were gained from draft pathways no longer available to us, and then again striking lucky with a particularly good batch of drafting around 07-09 which landed us Danger, Sloane, Walker from some pretty average draft picks. We haven't been able to repeat these yet.

We were contenders in 2001, 2002 & 2003

We had a terrible injury run back in 2004, our bounce back was just that.

Neil inherited an incredible team

 

[skam85]

lol remember when we tried playing Fogarty as a KPD in the SANFL