Rules Sirengate 2 - Freo v North

[BigTacoBandit]

Similarly if the ball is in play when the siren goes, then goes out… it’s out of bounds….and hence in this case a deliberate free kick. In that case it wouldn’t matter exactly when the siren went, as long as it’s after it’s left the players boot.

I would argue that current rules actually do read like this but the AFL ignores it to support the umpires.

 

[Byron_Clanger]

I mean, what did you expect from a league that has three different rules for when a game ends a draw throughout the year...we have one of the most confusing rules systems on the planet.

You can't grab and scrag anyone yet rucks and key backs are allowed to maul key forwards.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

The rule is already consistent with other rules, for instance, the rule on taking a mark. If the ball is in flight when the siren goes, and then the mark is taken afterwards, you don't get paid the mark. Likewise, if the ball is in the air when the siren goes, and then after the siren, it goes over the boundary line, stiff bikkies.

The infringement was before the siren went, subject to the ball going out of play.

That’s not comparable to your example of a mark being taken after the siren .

If scores are level and there’s a long bomb kick bouncing towards the goals, the defenders don’t just stop when the siren goes and let the ball trickle over the line. If they did that they’d lose. Play continues until they get a hand on the ball or it crosses the line.

 

[BigTacoBandit]

Was wondering what happens if that kick went OOB on the full but wasn't OOB when the Siren sounded.

Should be treated same as ax shot on goal as you mentioned.

Rule 10.5(b) explicitly addresses that situation - it's not a free kick if the ball is kicked before the siren but then LANDS out of bounds after the siren. The situation that happened on Saturday is not addressed.

NORTH would have been able to kick it out on the full really high and hope the siren goes before the ball lands.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Rule 10.5(b) explicitly addresses that situation - it's not a free kick if the ball is kicked before the siren but then LANDS out of bounds after the siren. The situation that happened on Saturday is not addressed.

NORTH would have been able to kick it out on the full really high and hope the siren goes before the ball lands.
View attachment 1641510

He should have kicked out on the full then!

 

[BigTacoBandit]

He should have kicked out on the full then!

Yes but he didnt and AFL laws of the game are unclear how the situation should have been addressed despite what the AFL says.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Yes but he didnt and AFL laws of the game are unclear how the situation should have been addressed despite what the AFL says.

Exactly why the umpires made a call and that’s the end of it .

But the rules could do with a tweak. The deliberate out of bounds should be defined as having occurred when the ball is kicked, and if the siren goes before the ball goes out then it’s still a free. Just like scores after the siren, defenders need to chase the ball down .

 

[BigTacoBandit]

Exactly why the umpires made a call and that’s the end of it .

But the rules could do with a tweak. The deliberate out of bounds should be defined as having occurred when the ball is kicked, and if the siren goes before the ball goes out then it’s still a free. Just like scores after the siren

Thats been my point all along - the rule needs to be tightened for this situation. The AFL should have said that they will tighten it, but that they got it right which I dont think they did.

The fact that the rules states that if an out on the full kick lands after the siren its NOT a free kick and is silent on what should happen with an "insufficient intent" that goes out after the siren would indicate that the rules should treat "insufficient intent" free kicks like a scoring shot in motion after the siren - as in the ball is still live and an "insufficient intent" free kick should have been paid.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Thats been my point all along - the rule needs to be tightened for this situation. The AFL should have said that they will tighten it, but that they got it right which I dont think they did.

The fact that the rules states that if an out on the full kick lands after the siren its NOT a free kick and is silent on what should happen with an "insufficient intent" that goes out after the siren would indicate that the rules should treat "insufficient intent" free kicks like a scoring shot in motion after the siren - as in the ball is still live and an "insufficient intent" free kick should have been paid.

Not sure how the umpires could be expected to pay it if it’s not in the rules but there is a rule that looks vaguely similar to it…… but is completely inapplicable in this case.

They made the right call

 

[Obeanie1]

Another idiot who doesn't realise the broadcast clock has nothing to do with the siren.

I did watch it fwit. Several times.

And it was a dead set line ball decision.

 

[BigTacoBandit]

Not sure how the umpires could be expected to pay it if it’s not in the rules but there is a rule that looks vaguely similar to it…… but is completely inapplicable in this case.

They made the right call

All the "insufficient intent" rule (18.10.2(b)) requires for it to be paid is for the ball to cross the boundary line (which it did) and for the player not to demonstrate their intent to keep the ball in (which they didnt as evidenced by the "pay it. pay it" call). It says nothing about going over the boundary line before the siren sounds.

You admit that the rule could do with a tweak and should be treated like scores after the siren. The fact that rules go out of their way to say that out on the full free kicks will not be treated like scores after the siren would imply that the AFL wanted "insufficient intent" free kicks to be treated differently to out on the full free kicks which would mean they are currently treated the same as scores after the siren.

 

[sherb]

Exactly why the umpires made a call and that’s the end of it .

But the rules could do with a tweak. The deliberate out of bounds should be defined as having occurred when the ball is kicked, and if the siren goes before the ball goes out then it’s still a free. Just like scores after the siren, defenders need to chase the ball down .

You can't foresee every possible event when you write laws and rules for sport but this incident has certainly exposed a hole in the Laws of the Game that needs to be fixed, ie Law 18.10.2 (b) doesn't state at what stage the free kick for insufficient intent actually becomes payable.
Is it:
*When the ball is kicked?
*When the ball crosses the line?
*When the boundary umpire signals out of bounds?

Normally, it doesn't really matter of course - until a situation like this one presents itself and then it becomes vital.

18.10 OUT OF BOUNDS
18.10.1 Spirit and Intention
Players shall be encouraged to keep the football in play.
18.10.2 Free Kicks - Out of Bounds
A field Umpire shall award a Free Kick against a Player who:
(a) Kicks the football Out of Bounds On the Full;
(b) Kicks, Handballs or forces the football over the Boundary Line and
does not demonstrate sufficient intent to keep the football in play; or
(c) fails to immediately hand the football to the boundary Umpire or drop
the football directly to the ground once the football is Out of Bounds.
18.10.3 Taking Free Kick
A Free Kick awarded under Law 18.10 shall be taken at the point where the football
crossed the Boundary Line.

 

[sherb]

All the "insufficient intent" rule (18.10.2(b)) requires for it to be paid is for the ball to cross the boundary line (which it did) and for the player not to demonstrate their intent to keep the ball in (which they didnt as evidenced by the "pay it. pay it" call). It says nothing about going over the boundary line before the siren sounds.

Unfortunately the rule isn't clear on when exactly the umpire should pay the free kick - I actually like Timmy's suggestion, ie penalize the act (putting the ball out of bounds) even if the ball itself goes out of bounds after the siren.
I think it's the best option out of the three I suggested, particularly because the laws cover football at all levels, not just the AFL. The actual kick is the best option for local field umpires to determine a free kick re 18.10.2 (b) in relation to a siren sounding.

 

[Tony Ongarello]

Better still just make the rules consistent with kicking at goals on the siren. If the ball is still in midflight when the siren goes off, it’s still a goal. Nobody ever disputes that.

Similarly if the ball is in play when the siren goes, then goes out… it’s out of bounds….and hence in this case a deliberate free kick. In that case it wouldn’t matter exactly when the siren went, as long as it’s after it’s left the players boot.

There is still the potential argument about when the siren went………Was it before or after it left his boot? As it stands the game is actually not over until one of the field umpires or the emergency umpire hears the siren. It has nothing to do with when you hear it on Foxtel or Seven or when you heard it at the ground it all comes down to when the umpire hears it. That is an event we can’t observe. Flashing lights we can observe and they can’t be drowned out by an excited crowd.

 

[Tony Ongarello]

This one was frustrating as there were obviously quite a few factors to consider when figuring out what the outcome could/should be

The earlier goal review for Tabs after both a) a mark had been paid and b) the goal had been scored was more of an issue for me. Was the correct call made? Of course. But the goal umpire wasn't sure and should have called a point or for a review when the mark was called not after the goal was kicked.

In a game decided by a point these two were pretty bitter pills to swallow. We by no means deserved to win and probably deserved to lose, however, those two calls hurt as lack of effort, lack of system were in our hands/our calls to make and those two decisions were baffling due to the perceived inconsistencies

Yes, I was watching the game on TV and I called that juggled across the line from the start, they eventually got to the correct decision but I am mystified as to how it went all the way to the player kicking a goal before they had a better look at it. I am wondering whether the review staff may have tipped off the on ground umpires that they had a concern with it. Ideally either the field or goal umpire would have noted that it was a juggled effort, conferred and requested a review before the player had his shot at goal.

 

[BigTacoBandit]

Unfortunately the rule isn't clear on when exactly the umpire should pay the free kick - I actually like Timmy's suggestion, ie penalize the act (putting the ball out of bounds) even if the ball itself goes out of bounds after the siren.
I think it's the best option out of the three I suggested, particularly because the laws cover football at all levels, not just the AFL. The actual kick is the best option for local field umpires to determine a free kick re 18.10.2 (b) in relation to a siren sounding.

I agree that it's needs cleaning up but I also believe that as the laws are written, Timmy's suggestion is how the rule currently operates. It just wasn't interpreted correctly in this instance.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

There is still the potential argument about when the siren went………Was it before or after it left his boot? As it stands the game is actually not over until one of the field umpires or the emergency umpire hears the siren. It has nothing to do with when you hear it on Foxtel or Seven or when you heard it at the ground it all comes down to when the umpire hears it. That is an event we can’t observe. Flashing lights we can observe and they can’t be drowned out by an excited crowd.

Umpire will have a lot more chance making that judgement call as he will likely be a lot closer

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

The umpire can't call deliberate oob until the oob has been signalled and that can only happen when the boundary ump signals it. if the siren goes before the boundary ump signals it and an umpire calls full time then the oob didn't happen in game time.

If the boundary ump hasn't called oob then the field ump can't call deliberate oob, its a logical impossibility.

How do umpires manage to call goals and behinds after the siren has gone?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I agree that it's needs cleaning up but I also believe that as the laws are written, Timmy's suggestion is how the rule currently operates. It just wasn't interpreted correctly in this instance.

You’ve already admitted no such rule exists for this exact circumstance.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

You can't foresee every possible event when you write laws and rules for sport but this incident has certainly exposed a hole in the Laws of the Game that needs to be fixed, ie Law 18.10.2 (b) doesn't state at what stage the free kick for insufficient intent actually becomes payable.
Is it:
*When the ball is kicked?
*When the ball crosses the line?
*When the boundary umpire signals out of bounds?

Normally, it doesn't really matter of course - until a situation like this one presents itself and then it becomes vital.

18.10 OUT OF BOUNDS
18.10.1 Spirit and Intention
Players shall be encouraged to keep the football in play.
18.10.2 Free Kicks - Out of Bounds
A field Umpire shall award a Free Kick against a Player who:
(a) Kicks the football Out of Bounds On the Full;
(b) Kicks, Handballs or forces the football over the Boundary Line and
does not demonstrate sufficient intent to keep the football in play; or
(c) fails to immediately hand the football to the boundary Umpire or drop
the football directly to the ground once the football is Out of Bounds.
18.10.3 Taking Free Kick
A Free Kick awarded under Law 18.10 shall be taken at the point where the football
crossed the Boundary Line.

Two choices.

1 leave it as it is because it’s so rare it’s not worth changing the rules. Umpires decision wins.
2. If you update the rules, then intent should be deemed as when the ball is kicked. Only thing that makes sense, being like that’s when he did it….

 

[BigTacoBandit]

You’ve already admitted no such rule exists for this exact circumstance.

True so how can the AFL say they got it right?

Can you show me in the rules where it says the ball has to cross the boundary before the siren sounds?

I've explained my reasoning but the AFL is saying the ball needs to cross the boundary before the siren. I can't find the rule they are referring to.

 

[big_e]

Unfortunately the rule isn't clear on when exactly the umpire should pay the free kick - I actually like Timmy's suggestion, ie penalize the act (putting the ball out of bounds) even if the ball itself goes out of bounds after the siren.
I think it's the best option out of the three I suggested, particularly because the laws cover football at all levels, not just the AFL. The actual kick is the best option for local field umpires to determine a free kick re 18.10.2 (b) in relation to a siren sounding.

But it's the going out of bounds that makes it a free kick.

Imagine Howe's kick bounces away from the boundary line instead of towards it. The kick definitely shows no intent to keep it in play, but because it doesn't go over the line, there's no free kick.

So the act that makes it a free isn't the kick, it's the crossing of the line.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

True so how can the AFL say they got it right?

Can you show me in the rules where it says the ball has to cross the boundary before the siren sounds?

I've explained my reasoning but the AFL is saying the ball needs to cross the boundary before the siren. I can't find the rule they are referring to.

I’m not here to defend the afls choice of words. Didn’t even read them.

Umpire made the final decision and in the absence of a rule that says they did it wrong, they made a judgement call from 45 metres away whether the ball was in or out before the siren went.

 

[BigTacoBandit]

I’m not here to defend the afls choice of words. Didn’t even read them.

Umpire made the final decision and in the absence of a rule that says they did it wrong, they made a judgement call from 45 metres away whether the ball was in or out before the siren went.

And Im saying its irrelevant whether the ball crossed the boundary before the siren or not.

It wasn't a judgement call by the umpires - it was an incorrect application of the rules as they are written.

 

[ferball]

You are trying to tell us the sky is purple. The ball crossed the line clearly and the siren went. It is just an amateur AFL mistake and won't be there last.

Firstly, the sky can be purple - around sunset, sunrise and at night sometimes - you need to spend more time outside.

Secondly only one of us knows how the game works and it ain't you.

Thirdly ... its their not there.