Proposal to include premierships dating back to 1870 gathering pace

[greatwhiteshark]

Do as you please in my view. But if someone ever asks me who has won the most flags I always answer Port Adelaide, East Fremantle, Norwood have won the most top tier flags in the sports history.
That the AFL and Victorians don’t want to acknowledge the sports history and have decided that the VFL is the sports history is on them.
The Game is bigger than all leagues.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Therefore, when Colin's dream eventually becomes a reality

It won't.

 

[peetoo]

Dya reckon if Geelong had the most AFL flags (which could be soon) they’d be pushing to dump the VFL flags

 

[rapidfire7]

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Brisbane Lions football club on their 13th Premiership in the Premier Australian Rules Football Competition of Australia .

Now in equal 6th place with the Tigers and the Hawks.

A magnificent achievement for a club which no one wanted to go to less than a decade ago.

 

[oak79]

"The Carter argument is compelling. Clearly the AFL was born of the VFA. The defection of eight clubs didn’t erase their histories pre-1897. Colin’s push maybe unpalatable with clubs whose place in premiership tallies will be adjusted negatively but a true history of the game’s origins is far more important. Clearly 1870 is the AFL competition’s birthdate."

—Mike Sheahan, sports journalist and media commentator.

It's the same logic that says Port's SANFL premierships should be included

Honestly, its so simple. Premierships should just be separated out into the comp they were won in.

AFL
VFL
WAFL
SANFL

If clubs want to count them together, whether it's Collingwood AFL/VFL or Port AFL/SANFL - go for it.

Yes the AFL is a continuous league from the VFL, but that's simplicist and doesn't recognise that the VFL was a state based amateur league just like the SANFL and WAFL. Port's historic SANFL premierships are no less than Collingwood's VFL flags.

 

[CharacterFirst]

Dya reckon if Geelong had the most AFL flags (which could be soon) they’d be pushing to dump the VFL flags

Nope.

 

[CharacterFirst]

It's the same logic that says Port's SANFL premierships should be included

Honestly, its so simple. Premierships should just be separated out into the comp they were won in.

AFL
VFL
WAFL
SANFL

If clubs want to count them together, whether it's Collingwood AFL/VFL or Port AFL/SANFL - go for it.

Yes the AFL is a continuous league from the VFL, but that's simplicist and doesn't recognise that the VFL was a state based amateur league just like the SANFL and WAFL. Port's historic SANFL premierships are no less than Collingwood's VFL flags.

No it's not the correct understanding of Aussie Rules history.

The VFA back in the 1800s was the Premier Comp in the Nation.

Aussie Rules "flags" for current AFL teams should only be counted if they were won in the Nations Premier Comp at the whatever point in the games history.

So SANFL, WAFL, VFA 1900s etc. "flags" don't meet the requirements as they were not the nations premier comp. They are not equivalent to Flags won in the best comp in various periods of Aussie rules history.

Original VFA flags count.
VFL flags from 1898 onwards to 1990 count.
AFL flags from 1990 - ..... count.

 

[rapidfire7]

For those who can't be bothered reading the book, Col has been sweet enough to provide a brief summary for you (apologies if you've already seen it).

Although this clip by no means covers his arguments in full, it summarises his main points and rebutts some of the usual objections.

Objections such as 'Port Adelaide's flags should be counted too then' AND 'It was a different league, so they shouldn't be counted' etc.

Thank you Col for all your hard work.

 

[OxfordCambridge]

"Premier Comp in the Nation"

VFL may have been strongest comp but great teams are great teams.


See Championships of Australia...

Port won one of their 4 after an undefeated season SANFL flag, defeating the SA State Side, then caned VFL Premier Carlton.

 

[peetoo]

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Brisbane Lions football club on their 13th Premiership in the Premier Australian Rules Football Competition of Australia .

Now in equal 6th place with the Tigers and the Hawks.

A magnificent achievement for a club which no one wanted to go to less than a decade ago.

Equal second with cats and eagles in AFL flags since 1990

 

[BF Tiger]

For those who can't be bothered reading the book, Col has been sweet enough to provide a brief summary for you (apologies if you've already seen it).

Although this clip by no means covers his arguments in full, it summarises his main points and rebutts some of the usual objections.

Objections such as 'Port Adelaide's flags should be counted too then' AND 'It was a different league, so they shouldn't be counted' etc.

Thank you Col for all your hard work.

Just let us know when they're officially recognised. Not seeing anything prior to 1897 here


here




or even here...

 

[rapidfire7]

But here yes:




*Missing 2024 Premiership

 

[terrybull]

But here yes:

View attachment 2130771
View attachment 2130769
View attachment 2130770
*Missing 2024 Premiership

There was no VFA before 1877

Challenge Cups in Victoria ran from 1861-1866, 1870-1876 with several different Challenge Cups in between.

So you need to add the following years for the winners in the Victorian competition:

1861 - University
1862 - Melbourne
1863 - Geelong
1864 - Geelong
1865 - Melbourne
1866 - South Yarra

Maybe we should include all the night Premiers as well? I mean if somebody writes a book and find some newspaper article supporting this, we must see this as factual evidence.

 

[BF Tiger]

But here yes:

View attachment 2130771
View attachment 2130769
View attachment 2130770
*Missing 2024 Premiership

Someone made a list... not sure where it's from but was it Colin Carter by any chance? I do note VFA in the heading, and nothing official about it. Interesting.

 

[rapidfire7]

Good to see the Swans are with the times, unlike so many others.



Even popping up in my FB feed these days wow!

 

[Freshwater]

But here yes:

View attachment 2130771
View attachment 2130769
View attachment 2130770
*Missing 2024 Premiership

Footscray won the 1924 Championship of Victoria cup when the VFL champions played the VFA to see who really was the strongest team. That title takes pride of place at the Whitten Oval and means more than those ancient 1870’s wins. It also showed the VFA champion was often as good if not better than the VFL champion. Player’s were traded back and forth, crowds were huge at both etc. The differences were minimal in the early days. Footscray has many titles in that league and if it weren’t for political shenanigans would have been in the league from the beginning. So those title should be on your list. Not that it should matter it’s so far back and it is all recognised for what it was. All the SANFL and WAFL titles were just as important too.

 

[peetoo]

There was no VFA before 1877

Challenge Cups in Victoria ran from 1861-1866, 1870-1876 with several different Challenge Cups in between.

So you need to add the following years for the winners in the Victorian competition:

1861 - University
1862 - Melbourne
1863 - Geelong
1864 - Geelong
1865 - Melbourne
1866 - South Yarra

Maybe we should include all the night Premiers as well? I mean if somebody writes a book and find some newspaper article supporting this, we must see this as factual evidence.

University more flags than freo

 

[glengowan]

A premiership is a premiership. Even though the VFL was a different league in 1897 to what the VFA was in 1896. The VFA prior to 1896 was the highest level of competition in Victoria. After 1897, through to 1990, it could be argued all the best players in Victoria didn't necessarily have a desire to play in the VFL, with an option to play in the high quality VFA, let alone the best players around Australia. Yes, the VFL was the strongest competition in the country, but it was nothing to what the AFL would become in 1990 and beyond, when football became professional, there was a team in every major city in Australia and every kid in the country had a desire to play AFL.

So regardless of the behind the scenes administration:

1896 and prior VFA equals or was higher standing than 1897-1986 VFL, when Victoria had two main competitions
1986 VFL made a huge leap to 1987 VFL which made another huge leap to 1991 AFL when all the main cities in the country had an AFL team

So the merging of VFL/AFL is cheapening the flags won more so than counting the VFA flags prior to 1897.

The best way is to count your VFA flags, count your VFL flags, count your SANFL flags and separately, count your AFL flags. Any premierships and awards won since 1990 are higher standing than the same named awards won prior. Just like the Magarey Medal these days, whilst still called the Magarey Medal, is not the prestige it was prior to 1990 in South Australia, when that competition was much stronger.

Almost every year, prior to 1990, there were State Carnivals and games. Victoria even had the VFL represented and the VFA. Look here to see the best players in Australia. There were also Champion of Australia matches between teams, not always won by the VFL. The AFL is without doubt where all roads lead to these days, and has been since the 1990's, but that wasn't always the case, despite what we always hear.

 

[bzparkes]

It always amuses me how people care so much about flag numbers, especially when the majority of them won were 100+ years ago.

It's like bragging about how Robert the Bruce kicked the arse of the English a decade or so after Wallace's death

Truly bizarre.

 

[Seeds]

It always amuses me how people care so much about flag numbers, especially when the majority of them won were 100+ years ago.

It's like bragging about how Robert the Bruce kicked the arse of the English a decade or so after Wallace's death

Truly bizarre.

Its all most of them have

 

[rapidfire7]

Its all most of them have

Yep, all I have in my life. 1870s bragging rights.

 

[peetoo]

On colour tv or forget it

Vfa premierships prior to the breakout of vfl were published in the record for a couple of decades after
Then they were seen as irrelevant and dropped

35 years into the AFL time to do the same with VFL premierships

Although I’d be open to go back to year eagles joining. 86 87 88 89

 

[rapidfire7]

On colour tv or forget it

Vfa premierships prior to the breakout of vfl were published in the record for a couple of decades after
Then they were seen as irrelevant and dropped

35 years into the AFL time to do the same with VFL premierships

Although I’d be open to go back to year eagles joining. 86 87 88 89

So virtually all your flags count. I see what you did there.

 

[peetoo]

I think the first cup and flag named AFL was 1990 so this.

They didn’t have cups until relatively recently though. Clubs were allowed to get retrospective cups at their own expense

So revisionism is a feature clearly

 

[VicBased]

So virtually all your flags count. I see what you did there.

Wc had their first in 92.