Proposal to include premierships dating back to 1870 gathering pace

[footyfan1978]

The Bulldogs won a number of premierships in the VFA before joining the VFL. Your club should recognise this.

They won 9 premierships in the VFA after the end of 1896 seasons split when 8 of the 13 VFA clubs formed the VFL for the next season.
The part that Colin Carter wants to claim for his AFL competition record keeping seems to be only before the split into two different leagues, of which Footscray won no premierships in period from 1870 to 1896.
Still an impressive 9 flags between 1897 to 1924 in the revamped VFA after the split.
East Fremantle won 11 flags in the WAFA/WAFL in same time period as Footscray 9 in the VFA.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

The part that Colin Carter wants to claim for his AFL competition record keeping seems to be only before the split into two different leagues, of which Footscray won no premierships in period from 1870 to 1896.
Still an impressive 9 flags between 1897 to 1924 in the revamped VFA after the split.
East Fremantle won 11 flags in the WAFA/WAFL in same time period as Footscray 9 in the VFA.

Yes, it seems that Colin only wants to include for the premiership record, the Victorian and VFA period from 1870-1896, before the first VFL competition was held in 1897?

 

[North park]

The VFA Premiership Wikipedia page reads:

Premierships are recognised for all seasons of VFA/VFL competition. Several different methods have existed to determine the premiers:

• From 1877 until 1887, the premiership was a title given to the best performing team, determined largely by press consensus. These premierships, as well as premierships between 1870 and 1876 decided in the same manner prior to the foundation of the VFA, were at the time an informal title, but have since been considered official.[1][2]
• In 1888, the premiership became a formal competition controlled by the VFA. From 1888 until 1902, the premiership was determined based on win–loss record, with a playoff match played only in the event of teams finishing with equal records.

My understanding is that in these early days of the VFA, the competition was very informal with some teams playing more games than others and no guarantee a team would play all others at least one. Premierships were given to the team with the best record during the season with no Grand Finals played - so effectively a Minor Premiership. A playoff match was only needed in two seasons - 1878 Geelong v Melbourne and 1896 Collingwood v South Melbourne.

These methods of determining premierships (how would press consensus go today??) really raise questions on the true value of premierships won before 1897. If clubs are going to start counting them as official premierships equal to VFL/AFL ones, they may as well also count Night Premierships and Pre-season Premierships - at least those ones required them to win a Grand Final.

 

[PenAndPaper]

Proposal to only have AFL era premierships count

 

[footyfan1978]

Yes, it seems that Colin only wants to include for the premiership record, the Victorian and VFA period from 1870-1896, before the first VFL competition was held in 1897?

I have not got that far towards end of book to see what his overall proposal is. At this stage it looks he wants to claim all the 1870 to 1896 as part of the AFL competition so that is not just premiership stuff, but all player records etc etc. But I have not heard his thoughts yet of what he would plan to do with the VFA records from 1897 to 1994. Did not find time yesterday to read any further but intend to knock over a few more chapters tonight and chapter four looks like it should be interesting as it will focus more on the VFA take around the time after it which until now I not really heard much on anywhere.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Flags awarded based on votes of the media of the day (who didn't have 24/7 fox footy to watch games on btw) in a different competition have no relevance to VFL/AFL records.

 

[Zevon]

No idea why posters incessantly sidetrack threads with endless garbage about Hawkins and flags.

Gets really really boring - grow up guys...if not, Bay 13 is that way....

Dropped by to clean things up and post something exactly like this, but you’ve said it better than I ever could.

Folks if you’re wondering why your post has been deleted, it’s because it’s either off topic, pointless, trolling, baiting or in many cases all of the above.

To those who are posting in good faith, if you come across rubbish please click report - you’re not being a snitch, you’re just letting us know which posts we can drop by and remove so that otherwise interesting threads like this can stay on topic and not get pointlessly sidetracked by the usual suspects.

Thanks all

 

[Gunf]

Simple solution is just separate all era's into it's own thing considering each era is completely different to each other anyway.

VFA by itself VFL by itself AFL by itself etc

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Simple solution is just separate all era's into it's own thing considering each era is completely different to each other anyway.

VFA by itself VFL by itself AFL by itself etc

Was the VFA the highest tier of football at the time in Victoria? If yes then it's a first tier premiership, just as all SANFL and WAFL ones are up to whatever year is agreed upon.
If I was new to Australia and adopted AFL as my sport I would want to know the real history of the sport not the VFL/AFL history being sold as the games history.

Port Adelaide are the most successful top tier club in Australia, then East fremantle, Norwood and West Perth. But for some reason the AFL do not want to tell the countries footy lovers this is the case.
Port Adelaide won 6 consecutive 1st tier premierships from 1954 to 1959 but for some reason the AFL keep reporting Collingwood hold the record for the sport with 4.

It is just such petty stuff and for the life of me I can't work out why anyone would be anti the truth.

The commentators should say Collingwood of course hold the record for most Consecutive premierhips in the VFL/AFL but of course the sports record is owned by Port Adelaide with 6 in a row. Why would that bother anyone? No idea.
It's not confusing, everyone knows there were 3 major football leagues in Australia, Christ I knew this as a 2 year old. The VFL/SANFL/WAFL were all regarded as the top tier leagues.

 

[Sentinel]

Was the VFA the highest tier of football at the time in Victoria? If yes then it's a first tier premiership, just as all SANFL and WAFL ones are up to whatever year is agreed upon.
If I was new to Australia and adopted AFL as my sport I would want to know the real history of the sport not the VFL/AFL history being sold as the games history.

Port Adelaide are the most successful top tier club in Australia, then East fremantle, Norwood and West Perth. But for some reason the AFL do not want to tell the countries footy lovers this is the case.
Port Adelaide won 6 consecutive 1st tier premierships from 1954 to 1959 but for some reason the AFL keep reporting Collingwood hold the record for the sport with 4.

It is just such petty stuff and for the life of me I can't work out why anyone would be anti the truth.

The commentators should say Collingwood of course hold the record for most Consecutive premierhips in the VFL/AFL but of course the sports record is owned by Port Adelaide with 6 in a row. Why would that bother anyone? No idea.
It's not confusing, everyone knows there were 3 major football leagues in Australia, Christ I knew this as a 2 year old. The VFL/SANFL/WAFL were all regarded as the top tier leagues.

This is a lot of waffle about something that's never happened. Where has the AFL ever claimed that Collingwood is the sport's record holder with their four-peat? They rightly claim that Collingwood is the league record holder. Does anyone dispute that Port is the SANFL record holder?

Much of this thread seems to miss the point that the VFL/AFL is a league, not a sport. Any records that the AFL reports relate to the league, not the sport - including premierships won since its inception in 1897, but not including premierships won prior to its inception (despite Colin Carter's delusional wishes).

 

[greatwhiteshark]

This is a lot of waffle about something that's never happened. Where has the AFL ever claimed that Collingwood is the sport's record holder with their four-peat? They rightly claim that Collingwood is the league record holder. Does anyone dispute that Port is the SANFL record holder?

Much of this thread seems to miss the point that the VFL/AFL is a league, not a sport. Any records that the AFL reports relate to the league, not the sport - including premierships won since its inception in 1897, but not including premierships won prior to its inception (despite Colin Carter's delusional wishes).

Incorrect, if 100 15 year olds are watching and they hear on the tv that A club has equaled Collingwoods record of 4 flags in a row they will assume Collingwood hold the record, when the AFL who are custodians of the sport should be informing their public it is Port who hold this record. Its not a SANFL record its the record of Australian Football at the top tier.

 

[Sentinel]

Incorrect, if 100 15 year olds are watching and they hear on the tv that A club has equaled Collingwoods record of 4 flags in a row they will assume Collingwood hold the record, when the AFL who are custodians of the sport should be informing their public it is Port who hold this record. Its not a SANFL record its the record of Australian Football at the top tier.

Nah.

Collingwood do hold the VFL/AFL record pal.

 

[footyfan1978]

Nah.

Collingwood do hold the VFL/AFL record pal.

Colin Carter would say Essendon do too.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Nah.

Collingwood do hold the VFL/AFL record pal.

Just 2 behind the national record the pies.
Port the greatest top tier club by the length of the Flemington straight.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Was the VFA the highest tier of football at the time in Victoria? If yes then it's a first tier premiership, just as all SANFL and WAFL ones are up to whatever year is agreed upon.
If I was new to Australia and adopted AFL as my sport I would want to know the real history of the sport not the VFL/AFL history being sold as the games history.

Port Adelaide are the most successful top tier club in Australia, then East fremantle, Norwood and West Perth. But for some reason the AFL do not want to tell the countries footy lovers this is the case.
Port Adelaide won 6 consecutive 1st tier premierships from 1954 to 1959 but for some reason the AFL keep reporting Collingwood hold the record for the sport with 4.

It is just such petty stuff and for the life of me I can't work out why anyone would be anti the truth.

The commentators should say Collingwood of course hold the record for most Consecutive premierhips in the VFL/AFL but of course the sports record is owned by Port Adelaide with 6 in a row. Why would that bother anyone? No idea.
It's not confusing, everyone knows there were 3 major football leagues in Australia, Christ I knew this as a 2 year old. The VFL/SANFL/WAFL were all regarded as the top tier leagues.

This is particularly so as I thought that the AFL was the Custodian of our game and in charge of the Rules of our game? If so, they should be looking at this from a whole of Australia perspective, and consider the records of non Victorian clubs.

 

[Sentinel]

Colin Carter would say Essendon do too.

Colin Carter can say what he likes, his fantasy doesn't change the actual history of the VFL/AFL which commenced only in 1897.

Just 2 behind the national record the pies.
Port the greatest top tier club by the length of the Flemington straight.

What is this "national record" you are talking about? It's not a thing that exists and certainly is not relevant to the VFL/AFL record which this thread is about.

 

[footyfan1978]

Colin Carter can say what he likes, his fantasy doesn't change the actual history of the VFL/AFL which commenced only in 1897.

Would be a bit silly to generalise his thoughts as a fantasy until you read everything he means but this part in bold is my view. Yes, the clubs that started the league continued on from the previous seasons in the VFA before but they did actually create a new league so at present I read nothing from him that changes the date of when it started. Football seasons and premiership competition begin before 1897 for the clubs that started this league in 1897 but the new league birth itself is the same as what you and I believe and know... 1897... I do not understand how he can even say it is wrong. It is just a fact of history. They did start a new league in 1897. That is my one beef with him on what I read so far. Everything else I've read so far from him is correct about the pre-1897 seasons are super important to the continuity of history of the seasons of these clubs prior to that. It amazing they have not skipped a season in well over 150 years of football in Victoria which when he talking worldwide that run of football seasons in Victoria would be longer that most others in the world.

 

[Rimmer]

Yeah, not happening, nice for Carlton not much interest for anyone else. I guess if no Carlton supporter under 30 remembers winning a premiership you can dream about rewriting the rules. Why not add Port Adelaide's 36 premierships in the SANFL as well ...

 

[Bunk Moreland]

The only thing I can see on the AFL's own site is this...

AFL Premiership Winners - AFL.com.au

In complete chronological order, view the full list of Toyota AFL premiership winners from 1897 to present.

www.afl.com.au

It's a history of their own premiers as a league and makes no claims to be anything else.

Presumably this is the list Carter now wants to "update" by including premierships won in other leagues

So which leagues get included?

Seems like a pedant's thing to do... he wants to bundle up all history in a single neat little list *

History is sometimes messy, that's just how it is. Deal with it, Colin.


* More that he's trying to appeal to pedants - i think his real motivation is just that of a nuffy supporter - to rewrite history to make his own club "the best"

 

[Engimal v3]

What's all this bullshit about "first/highest tier" football? The AFL is objectively the highest tier league in the country, and the AFL used to be called the VFL. That's why we count premierships from these two competitions and not the others.

It's that simple.

 

[Sentinel]

What's all this bullshit about "first/highest tier" football? The AFL is objectively the highest tier league in the country, and the AFL used to be called the VFL. That's why we count premierships from these two competitions and not the others.

It's that simple.

The only correction that I'd make is that the AFL and VFL are not two competitions, it's one competition which underwent a name change.

 

[CrowsB4hoes]

If VFA premierships are included, then AFLX premierships should as well

 

[Leeda]

What's all this bullshit about "first/highest tier" football? The AFL is objectively the highest tier league in the country, and the AFL used to be called the VFL. That's why we count premierships from these two competitions and not the others.

It's that simple.

Port Adelaide is the only reprobate club who is... well it is all South Australia who is demanding equality over recognition of previous titles.

Mudder...

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

If VFA premierships are included, then AFLX premierships should as well

Yes, I agree. AFLX premierships at least had a grand final.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

What's all this bullshit about "first/highest tier" football? The AFL is objectively the highest tier league in the country, and the AFL used to be called the VFL. That's why we count premierships from these two competitions and not the others.

It's that simple.

It wasn't in 1980. there were three top tier footy leagues the VFL/WAFL/SANFL. All three of them were regarded as 1st tier.
That one was a little better than the other doesn't change the status.

In Soccer we have the EPL, the German and spanish leagues. One of them will be a little better than the other two does that mean the others are 2nd tier leagues?

Just don't understand why some of you Victorians hate the history of the sport unless you are the ones leading the category.

The achievement of West Perth in winning the WAFL, North Melbourne winning the VFL and Norwood winning the SANFL in 1975 was all three clubs won their State League premiership. All 3 of those games were played on the same day and all were totally embraced by their own city as the only game in town.
At that time it was the pinnacle to have played in any of those games.