NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[rye]

You do realise South of the Yarra was just responding to a post which said teachers are less likely to be racist?

no and i dont particularly see the relevance. if they have made a claim as to teachers (and by extension those in 'authority' which is a pretty vague category in of itself) to be more racist than the general population that i would expect some kind of authority to support that statement.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Seriously I am banging my head against a brick wall with you. I seriously don't know what rock you are living under. if you think there has not been substantial abuse of teachers 'since the beginning of history' whether that be racial, sexual or any other form of abuse then you seriously have no idea. You wouldn't, you haven't lived it.

You really are a unique individual.....

Okay let me spell it out for you as clearly as I can.

Yes, of course some teachers have over the course of recorded history commited acts of racism. That's not something anyone can deny. But you could say that about any profession.

But teachers on the whole are more educated than the general population and have been to university. They will generally be more well read than the general population and less likely to be be seated by simplistic arguments.

In fact I can't think of a cohort of people who would be less likely to be racist than state primary / secondary teachers? They are highly educated and generally more left leaning and their union is strongly involved in issues like the Voice, etc. They would seem to be the very opposite of a racist cohort of people.

Your whole argument seems to be that because you have lived experience of it then it must be true? That's not an arguement, it's well I'm not sure exactly what that is?

 

[Elixuh]

Seriously I am banging my head against a brick wall with you. I seriously don't know what rock you are living under. if you think there has not been substantial abuse of teachers 'since the beginning of history' whether that be racial, sexual or any other form of abuse then you seriously have no idea. You wouldn't, you haven't lived it.

100% true.

 

[JackOutback]

Teachers underpin the education institution. If the institution is based on racist principles, the outcomes are more likely to be racist, even if the individual is not.

My brother is a teacher, an example from our past that he was taught was how a group of very young Aboriginal kids were struggling with left and right. Given this was such a ‘simple’ and foundational thing, they were often written off as not bright. But turns out if you asked them to point north, south, east, west, they would usually nail it while non-Aboriginal kids didn’t have a clue. Turns out they weren’t stupid, they just had different experiences and different ways of learning. The teachers might not have been racist, but if they wrote them off for not conforming to a white education, the outcome was racist.

 

[phantom13]

.

I actually agree that Clarko was out of control at the end of his tenure at the Hawks and he's always had a history of overstepping boundaries. But to label him (and Fagan and Burt) as racists (three ex teachers mind you) I just can't see how that was ever actually a possibility.

Clarko is a lot of things but a racist, nah that's just BS.

This is the original “teachers aren’t racist” quote, for the record.

No one originally posited teachers were more likely to be racist, this post qualified that because Clarko, Fagan and Burt used to be teachers, there is NO WAY all 3 could be racist.

It not only discounts any and all other demographics they hit, it dismisses that they are no longer teachers and hadn’t been for decades when these alleged incidents occurred.

Whatever your position on that whole side discussion is it wasn’t someone saying all teachers are racist, it started from someone saying 3 former teachers couldn’t be racist.

 

[Elixuh]

This is the original “teachers aren’t racist” quote, for the record.

No one originally posited teachers were more likely to be racist, this post qualified that because Clarko, Fagan and Burt used to be teachers, there is NO WAY all 3 could be racist.

It not only discounts any and all other demographics they hit, it dismisses that they are no longer teachers and hadn’t been for decades when these alleged incidents occurred.

Whatever your position on that whole side discussion is it wasn’t someone saying all teachers are racist, it started from someone saying 3 former teachers couldn’t be racist.

I wasn't confused and no one said a claim had been made that all teachers are racist. One said teachers are less likely to be racist the other said teachers are more likely to be racist, both are wrong.

 

[sr36]

I think that is a good point. If you give racism a broad enough definition then everyone has the capacity to be a racist given the right environment or circumstances. I don't profess to know nearly enough about different cultures around the world and could easily say something highly offensive without understanding the implication/context and the person I say it to may deem it racist.

It's not so much a broadening of the definition. It's a definition that shifts the focus to the person experiencing the action rather than the person doing the action.

The issue is that the definition that does that isn't the layman's definition of racism So somebody who unintentionally does racist actions gets demonised by this powerful word that conjures up such horrible images. But it's probably better than damaging actions being ignored because the person wasn't coming from a racist ideology, which is what occurs if we only focus on the thinking of the actor.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Wot. If you define teachers as holding a position of power and anyone who holds a position of power is more likely to be racist then the only logical conclusion is that teachers are more likely to be racist and I think you said those exact words in a post above. This isn't a gotcha. You're now raising all this stuff in bold which I didn't say / is irrelevant to what I said.

I accept your lived experience. It is also the case that research which has looked into this issue on a broader scale of lived experiences doesn't necessarily always reflect this position.

More likely to be racist than what. It is you who keeps putting in the comparative claimer. Are teachers more likely to abuse power in a racial manner than a toilet cleaner, yes they are. When there is a someone in a position of power over a marginalised group there is more likely to be abuse of power. I haven't seen institutions set up to monitor toilet cleaners' standards, why do you think bodies like the VIT exist because of the substantial abuse of power that has taken place over time.

 

[perplexed]

Clarko and Fagan were both once teachers. Hope this helps.

 

[yodellinhank]

no and i dont particularly see the relevance. if they have made a claim as to teachers (and by extension those in 'authority' which is a pretty vague category in of itself) to be more racist than the general population that i would expect some kind of authority to support that statement.

They didn't make the claim, they responded to somebody elses claim supported by "lived experience" with their own lived experience. But you didn't howl down the other poster for a lack of supporting evidence?

 

[rye]

They didn't make the claim, they responded to somebody elses claim supported by "lived experience" with their own lived experience. But you didn't howl down the other poster for a lack of supporting evidence?

no because A) i did not see it and B) the claim south by the yarra made is far more interesting.

'howling down' please. do you police everyone else this way when they ask people to elaborate on or substantiate their arguments?

 

[Elixuh]

It's not so much a broadening of the definition. It's a definition that shifts the focus to the person experiencing the action rather than the person doing the action.

The issue is that the definition that does that isn't the layman's definition of racism So somebody who unintentionally does racist actions gets demonised by this powerful word that conjures up such horrible images. But it's probably better than damaging actions being ignored because the person wasn't coming from a racist ideology, which is what occurs if we only focus on the thinking of the actor.

Yeah I don't know where I sit with this. Should someone who makes a reasonable error from a lack of knowledge of misunderstanding be categorised in the same way as someone who is overtly racist. In practice I don't think that happens, especially where the person on the receiving end might find the action racist but understand and accept the cause.

But reading this thread it seems like a lot of people think about them in the same or similar categories.

I don't know the answer as I've never been subjected to racism.

 

[yodellinhank]

no because A) i did not see it and B) the claim south by the yarra made is far more interesting.

'howling down' please. do you police everyone else this way when they ask people to elaborate on or substantiate their arguments?

It was pointed out to you that it was the case, but you continued to only take issue with one poster and not the other. I find that interesting.

 

[South of the Yarra]

no because A) i did not see it and B) the claim south by the yarra made is far more interesting.

'howling down' please. do you police everyone else this way when they ask people to elaborate on or substantiate their arguments?

I have lived the racial abuse by teachers as an Aboriginal, I have seen my kids live that racial abuse. I have seen it in the communities I have worked in, I have seen it with the foster kids I foster. I have seen it in the Aboriginal kids we home school. I could give you thousands of examples of racial abuse by teachers to Aboriginal kids. And I should add I was a teacher and Principal for over 45 years, so I have seen it from both ends.

 

[skipper kelly]

If it was my comment you are referring to I actually said 'From my lived experience it is those in a position of power which teachers are, who are more likely to be racist.'

Would you not agree that people in positions of power are more likely to be racist?

Forum admins and mods?

 

[Chief]

Forum admins and mods?

It's like that old joke. I think it starts something like ...

"An ex cop wanders into a discussion on racism... "

 

[sr36]

Yeah I don't know where I sit with this. Should someone who makes a reasonable error from a lack of knowledge of misunderstanding be categorised in the same way as someone who is overtly racist. In practice I don't think that happens, especially where the person on the receiving end might find the action racist but understand and accept the cause.

But reading this thread it seems like a lot of people think about them in the same or similar categories.

I don't know the answer as I've never been subjected to racism.

I think a different term should be used - culturally offensive for example. Racist is just far too loaded a word and turns it into a fight with the person desperate to defend themselves rather than considering and looking to change their actions.

But I also think it's good that there has been a shift in focus towards the experiencer.

I agree with you that it isn't such an issue in the everyday world. It's when things get analysed and categorised and given the label in the broader community who are not connected to the issue and use a different definition of racist more connected to images of the kkk.

 

[South of the Yarra]

You really are a unique individual.....

Okay let me spell it out for you as clearly as I can.

Yes, of course some teachers have over the course of recorded history commited acts of racism. That's not something anyone can deny. But you could say that about any profession.

But teachers on the whole are more educated than the general population and have been to university. They will generally be more well read than the general population and less likely to be be seated by simplistic arguments.

In fact I can't think of a cohort of people who would be less likely to be racist than state primary / secondary teachers? They are highly educated and generally more left leaning and their union is strongly involved in issues like the Voice, etc. They would seem to be the very opposite of a racist cohort of people.

Your whole argument seems to be that because you have lived experience of it then it must be true? That's not an arguement, it's well I'm not sure exactly what that is?

Thanks for the compliment. Why does the VIT exist? Why to APSTs exist?

 

[Elixuh]

More likely to be racist than what. It is you who keeps putting in the comparative claimer. Are teachers more likely to abuse power in a racial manner than a toilet cleaner, yes they are. When there is a someone in a position of power over a marginalised group there is more likely to be abuse of power. I haven't seen institutions set up to monitor toilet cleaners' standards, why do you think bodies like the VIT exist because of the substantial abuse of power that has taken place over time.

You and the Hawthorn guy kept using the word 'likely', I was just repeating it. Across about a dozen posts you said two different things. First, a substantial number of teachers have committed racism, sexual abuse etc which I agree with. Second, people in positions of power like teachers are more likely to be racist. I don't agree with that, it is much more nuanced than the way you put it.

 

[Elixuh]

It's like that old joke. I think it starts something like ...

"An ex cop wanders into a discussion on racism... "

I never thought i'd see the day Chief got canceled, but here we are.

 

[yodellinhank]

I think a different term should be used - culturally offensive for example. Racist is just far too loaded a word and turns it into a fight with the person desperate to defend themselves rather than considering and looking to change their actions.

But I also think it's good that there has been a shift in focus towards the experiencer.

I agree with you that it isn't such an issue in the everyday world. It's when things get analysed and categorised and given the label in the broader community not connected to the issue.

I think that's what was initially claimed against the coaches, Cultural Insensitivity?

 

[skipper kelly]

It's like that old joke. I think it starts something like ...

"An ex cop wanders into a discussion on racism... "

I was asking a question? Dont derail another thread please.

 

[Elixuh]

I think that's what was initially claimed against the coaches, Cultural Insensitivity?

I think that is where the whole thing lands - cultural insensitivity and Hawthorn not having systems and processes to provide a culturally safe environment for everyone.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

I think that's what was initially claimed against the coaches, Cultural Insensitivity?

That's not how the ABC framed it in their initial article.

The players have tried to walk back their initial claims against the coaches towards cultural insensitivity but when the ABC dropped their story it was all headlines about claims of racism / Clarko forced me to abort my baby / etc, etc.

The only claim I have actually seen to be verified though is Jeff's ripped jeans joke which I doubt would even stretch to making the cut of being culturally insensitive.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

You and the Hawthorn guy kept using the word 'likely', I was just repeating it. Across about a dozen posts you said two different things. First, a substantial number of teachers have committed racism, sexual abuse etc which I agree with. Second, people in positions of power like teachers are more likely to be racist. I don't agree with that, it is much more nuanced than the way you put it.

If you are talking across the entirety of human history then of course teachers have committed those acts.

But are teachers more likely than the general public to be racists / sexual predators? I highly, highly doubt that.

In fact they would probably be underrepresented in those things (I don't think this would be verifiable though as I doubt these stats are recorded anywhere).

So yes my initial statement about the coaches being ex teachers is probably not valid.

Yarra is completely off the deep end though with his linking teachers being more likely to be racists than the general public, that's complete bat s..t crazy.