Ginbey/Lalor incident

[TheOptimum18]

Looking back on it after a couple of hours, I think a crucial mistake in our appeal was arguing that Mansell couldn't forsee Lynch and Caminiti coming out to contest the mark.

If I remember correctly, it was a clearance from the middle into an open forward line with 6-6-6. Any key fwd worth their salt would be going for that mark.

I'm disappointed we didn't go down the route of "is it reasonable for Mansell to forsee the hold on Lynch that places Lynch's arm where it was that resulted in O'Connell's concussion".

Imo, I think it's easier to argue that its unreasonable for players (Mansell in this case) to foresee an illegal act in a marking contest that leads to a concussion than arguing it's unreasonable for players to expect a marking contest.

Looking at the video, I think it's easy to make the case that if Lynch wasn't held in the marking contest, then he's able to raise his arms up to try and take the mark, meaning that O'Connell would've been pushed past the Lynch and Caminiti contest injury free.

You could make the case that Mansell was doing his duty of care by pushing O'Connell away from the contest rather than into the contest, but Caminiti's illegal hold on Lynch meant the contest didn't pan out in a foreseeable manner for Mansell to predict.

Clearly Mansell doesn't know about the hold on Lynch, since he is the one that actually starts to go back on the mark and ask for the ball, presumably thinking that the umpire has given the holding freekick against O'Connell for holding him.

 

[THECHIEFTON]

View attachment 2269257

This is the most confusing part for me. How are that not comparable? Lalor got a bloody broken jaw which is arguably worse

I don't think they are comparable. The Ginbey incident is worse. The AFL is trying to cover their ass saying Ginbey had eyes for the ball and couldn't foresee Lalor being cleaned up by his team mate backing back to take a mark...which is the biggest load of BS. He must have extremely narrow vision if that's the case.

O'Connell was always going for the mark. Arms outstretched, eyes on the ball the whole time. Guarantee he'd tell you this. Mansell gave him a little push but in no way did it force him into the contest. Very much the same as the Tom Lunch bump. He was pushed but he still chose to bump him. Just like the AFL argued.

 

[SplintWhisky]

100% correct.
I do enjoy Richmond fans looking hypocritical and all usually but I’m siding with you on this. This suspension is utterly ridiculous.

This ‘push’ had no impact whatsoever. He isn’t falling or flailing around. O’Connell is brave/stupid, puts himself in a dangerous position. Players need to be looking after themselves aswell.
He took a courageous mark against us last week, this kid has no fear it seems. He was going back with the flight anyway.
It’s very disappointing Mansell pays the price and people cannot see this incident for what it is.

The Lalor push was fine in my books and just a unlucky accident. But, if the AFL would of allowed Lalor to protect himself, he probably wouldn't of been hurt so much.

I agree in this instance that Mansell's push had no impact on the outcome. The AFL argued that he was pushed beyond what is reasonable. If that is the case, how is O'Connell able to continue moving, without stumbling or trying to regain balance, to the drop zone of the ball whilst looking at it the entire time he is moving? The idea that Mansell pushed him so hard and that O'Connell was never contesting the ball can not exist in the same universe and doesn't line up with the vision.

If Mansell had pushed him beyond what is expected, then we should of seen a stumble or at least something that makes it look like an uncontrolled run into the marking contest.

 

[smasha]

AFL ignored this and of course went straight for Richmond on a very iffy case.

Don't change boy's club.

No wonder Benny Gale was voted out.

He would have cleaned out the rubbish!

 

[smasha]

"A significant factor" the clown football league website says

What a load of BS.

 

[TwiggleyFanClub]

There seems to be s lot of sooking going on. "Vendetta against the club, boo hoo" blah blah.
If it happened to one of mine, I'd be filthy too, but at the player over what I consider a dog act.

This is the football equivalent of pushing someone in front of a car, and then blaming the car.

 

[boncer34]

There seems to be s lot of sooking going on. "Vendetta against the club, boo hoo" blah blah.
If it happened to one of mine, I'd be filthy too, but at the player over what I consider a dog act.

This is the football equivalent of pushing someone in front of a car, and then blaming the car.

First time you've encountered a thread with Richmond posters?

 

[DazalenkoUBewty]

In a way the saints player benefited from the nudge. It actually helped him get to the ball, which is exactly what he was trying to do. He was literally running (courageously) to mark the ball.

3 weeks - absolute farce, imo

 

[Whiskers]

The Lalor push was fine in my books and just a unlucky accident. But, if the AFL would of allowed Lalor to protect himself, he probably wouldn't of been hurt so much.

I agree in this instance that Mansell's push had no impact on the outcome. The AFL argued that he was pushed beyond what is reasonable. If that is the case, how is O'Connell able to continue moving, without stumbling or trying to regain balance, to the drop zone of the ball whilst looking at it the entire time he is moving? The idea that Mansell pushed him so hard and that O'Connell was never contesting the ball can not exist in the same universe and doesn't line up with the vision.

If Mansell had pushed him beyond what is expected, then we should have seen a stumble or at least something that makes it look like an uncontrolled run into the marking contest.

Spot on.
I can’t understand how no one else seems to understand a forceful push would have them stumble, fall or flail. None of this happens.
You can have a pushing motion with very little force especially if that person is also going the same direction.

Below is what a push really is. Of course it’s Toby!

View attachment IMG_3832.mov

 

[Sam_100]

There seems to be s lot of sooking going on. "Vendetta against the club, boo hoo" blah blah.
If it happened to one of mine, I'd be filthy too, but at the player over what I consider a dog act.

This is the football equivalent of pushing someone in front of a car, and then blaming the car.

Carlton is a protected species in the eyes of the CFL. Your players can do whatever they want on the field and get off scott free. Look at Cripps; concusses a player, and the CFL manufactures it so he doesn't get suspended to allow him to win the Brownlow.

If O'Connell was pushed he would have stumbled into the pack in front of him. He ran 4-5 metres into it, arms outstretched to try and mark the ball.

So will the CFL now suspend players who outbody their opponents in a marking contest and they get injured or concussed? Sure look like it. The way things are going, the AFL is going to become the Netball Football Competition.

 

[TwiggleyFanClub]

“Carlton! Cry cry sook sook whinge whinge But Cripps!” If only that had anything to do with this issue.

If you’re wrestling in a contest then play on. If you and your opponent aren’t in the contest and you shove him into the contest while staying out of it yourself, then you get written up. Shouldn’t be that hard to understand.

 

[Sam_100]

So why no action on Ginbey? He pushed Lawlor into another Eagles player and ended getting a fractured jaw and a concussion. Where was Ginbey's duty of care to Lawlor to ensure his push did not result in an injury?

 

[THECHIEFTON]

There seems to be s lot of sooking going on. "Vendetta against the club, boo hoo" blah blah.
If it happened to one of mine, I'd be filthy too, but at the player over what I consider a dog act.

This is the football equivalent of pushing someone in front of a car, and then blaming the car.

I'm annoyed because its blatantly a mistake. Everything in the vision points to O'Connell wanting to contest the ball the whole time. Mansell didn't cause the collision. The push was to far away from the marking contest and not hard enough to force him into harms way unwillingly.

 

[TwiggleyFanClub]

So why no action on Ginbey? He pushed Lawlor into another Eagles player and ended getting a fractured jaw and a concussion. Where was Ginbey's duty of care to Lawlor to ensure his push did not result in an injury?

He should have gone too, and would definitely have gone if he did it in the home and away. Maybe they decided to give people the praccy games a chance to clean up their act.

 

[Sam_100]

Maybe they decided to give people the praccy games a chance to clean up their act.

The AFL has been all over concussion injuries/protocols like a rash in recent history to the extent where they have been quick to pull the trigger in regard to suspensions for incidents tha would have been previously considered footbsall actions.

If the AFL did not take action in the Ginbey incident to 'give people in praccy games to clean up their act' then its surely taking the piss and negligent on their part. A player was concussed and had his jaw fractured. I would have thought that would be sufficient justification to take action against Ginbey.

As I have said previously, the AFL is making shit up as they go.

 

[Cam Payne]

Tigers supporters are right to be shitty that it's their guy who's first up against the wall. Your's shouldn't be the first but he should still go for it.

 

[G String]

There seems to be s lot of sooking going on. "Vendetta against the club, boo hoo" blah blah.
If it happened to one of mine, I'd be filthy too, but at the player over what I consider a dog act.

This is the football equivalent of pushing someone in front of a car, and then blaming the car.

Thats a really bad analogy. If that was even close to being a good analogy the AFL could go after Lynch as well - that would be the best day ever for the AFL.

 

[TwiggleyFanClub]

Thats a really bad analogy. If that was even close to being a good analogy the AFL could go after Lynch as well - that would be the best day ever for the AFL.

OMG someone think of the children and the one-eyed Richmond victims.

If it was someone else’s player getting pinged you would have said serves him right. Instead you’re blaming everyone dlse but your guy.

 

[TwiggleyFanClub]

Tigers supporters are right to be shitty that it's their guy who's first up against the wall. Your's shouldn't be the first but he should still go for it.

Agree. Better late than never, but should have been earlier.

 

[tropicaltiger]

Need a hypothetical expert here.... What happens if it's a Grand Final... minute to go and exactly the same happens, except Mansell instead of stopping (as concerned for injured player and Lynch had/has received holding free)

Mansell swoops on the loose ball and runs at goal (umpire calls advantage) Mansell bangs it thru and Tigers hit the front. WTF happens?

 

[THECHIEFTON]

Need a hypothetical expert here.... What happens if it's a Grand Final... minute to go and exactly the same happens, except Mansell instead of stopping (as concerned for injured player and Lynch had/has received holding free)

Mansell swoops on the loose ball and runs at goal (umpire calls advantage) Mansell bangs it thru and Tigers hit the front. WTF happens?

Lynch wouldn't get the hold call in that situation. He'd get the free against for high contact, couldn't ignore that.

 

[G String]

OMG someone think of the children and the one-eyed Richmond victims.

If it was someone else’s player getting pinged you would have said serves him right. Instead you’re blaming everyone dlse but your guy.

Absolutely - its a dog act to push a player into a contest but the problem is that the AFL sat on their hands for too long and now they are desperate to make a stand as the pressure mounts. They need to be seen doing something about concussion through fear of legal action in the future - and now they've chosen the wrong incident to make a stand. But it suited all their other criteria - a low profile player from a club thats not contending. The way the AFL do things and their motivations are all wrong on all kind of levels.