Do we still want to finish bottom???

[TO HOT TO HANDLE]

NO we want to make the finals and until we cant we can.

 

[_RT_]

pretty much my thinking. just a question though.

we are going into say rnd 20 we have won 4 games. we are to play two sides we are likely to lose against so we dont really need to change anything but one side we are a good chance to maybe win do we pick a side for that game that is structurally poor and unlikely to win thus ensuring a shot at a high quality pick and a bonus 2nd rounder or do we go all out.

i know what i would do. give me a shot at a possible martin type and the extra pick anyday.

Honestly, I reckon Hardwick would rather win than take the extra pick, especially when we're playing kids and that teaching the kids how to win games is, IMO, more important than adding an extra top 30 pick.

In the last 3 games of this season we play against the Blues, Saints & Port. Now imagine going into those games with the following lineup:

B:Farmer Gourdis Moore
HB: Deledio McGuane Newman
C: Tambling Cotchin Jackson
HF: Astbury Griffiths Nason
F: Nahas Riewoldt Taylor
R: Graham Martin Foley
I/C: Vickery Tuck Edwards Webberley

Imagine the confidence the players would get from knocking off either the Blues or Saints in front of a big crowd, especially if the game was a tight one where you had to battle right to the end to secure the win. Now I might be wrong but a win or 2 like that against top 8 sides, where the win actually means something because top 8 sides don't want to lose heading into the finals, would do more for the development of the kids and the culture of the club than losing and adding pick 27 would.

Don't get me wrong I can see the benfits of adding an extra top 30 kid, but at the same time I can see more benefit in winning a game that actually means something unlike the 3 wins we had to finish off the 08 season where the teams we were playing didn't want to win.

 

[Final Siren]

I really take issue with some of the definitions being used here.

Yes, Melbourne were getting as many games as they can into the kids last year. But it is clear as day they were tanking with how they decided to 'experiment' by playing players out of position when they looked like a chance of winning.

It's not "experimenting" when you suddenly send your defenders to attack and your forwards to defense in the last quarter of Round 18. Melbourne's aim was not to figure out whether Petterd would make a good defender. It was to lose the match.

And you could say we have been tanking this year anyway.. Hardwick has said time and again that he is getting games into kids and testing players in various positions rather than playing the "best team" available.

It's not "tanking" to give games to kids rather than veterans once you believe you can't make finals. If you're out of the running for 2010, you stop giving games to players who won't be with you next year anyway, get more conservative with managing injury, and focus on 2011. But on match day every one of your players and coaches wants to win that game.

Tanking is when you attempt to lose. RFC has never done this and I hope to god never will.

 

[tigerT]

absolutely, lets not get carried away this team still needs heaps of new talent

 

[CoggaRules]

Hey dudes, looking at it another way....the bummers are in the 8, we didnt but we should have beat them if we were on the job for the whole game. Now we are 4 games out, with more than half the season to go. taking into account the inconsistent form of the teams in around 9-8-7-6 etc and the out of left field situation where a Ben griffiths lights up the AFL, couple with JR's already arrival, Ben regaining top form, Martin improving, Gus and Polak arriving as a ruck duo, instead of Ty and Simmo arriving as hacks inc, etc etc etc etc..you never know your luck in the big city...4 games out dudes....LMAO...reach for the stars...let them know Benny Gale dont talk shit like our previous coach did.

 

[Madison]

You guys don't seem to realise we already have the draft picks, we just need to make sure they develop properly.

We don't need to go overboard with more top 10 picks, though we do need some quality players.

We already have Pick 1 (Lids), 2 (Cotch), 3 (Martin) and 4 (Tambling). The first 3 make up our starting midfield.

We need some more quality players, but as proven in the last draft which was supposedly very weak, we can get talent anywhere. We just need to develop them.

That said, I wouldn't be chasing cheap wins. I would rather us be competitive for the rest of the season and finish last, than be up and down and snag some wins against nothing opponents but finish 15th or 14th.

 

[PHX]

I want pick 4. I want one of the clear best players in the country because after the top 4 it gets a bit cloudy.

But we don't need to tank to do that as we aren't good enough to finish anywhere but last unless Adelaide or West Coast go on a massive tank mission.

We can beat West Coast, North, Adelaide and Port on the run home.

The other teams should have us covered if they play a reasonable game and at least one of those poorer teams we can beat will be better than us on the day depending on whether the good or bad versions of Port and North turn up.

3-4 wins. Pick four, priority pick, plenty of games being put into the kids and into them learning the game plan and we are well on our way. That's the realistic scenario.

 

[CoggaRules]

You guys don't seem to realise we already have the draft picks, we just need to make sure they develop properly.

We don't need to go overboard with more top 10 picks, though we do need some quality players.

We already have Pick 1 (Lids), 2 (Cotch), 3 (Martin) and 4 (Tambling). The first 3 make up our starting midfield.

We need some more quality players, but as proven in the last draft which was supposedly very weak, we can get talent anywhere. We just need to develop them.

That said, I wouldn't be chasing cheap wins. I would rather us be competitive for the rest of the season and finish last, than be up and down and snag some wins against nothing opponents but finish 15th or 14th.

ummm....yeah dude but as was proven in the last draft as well, we would have been spitting chips if we didnt get pick 3 and have him in our midfield and basically in the top 3 of the B&F as we speak from the word go.

 

[UpTheGuts]

I want pick 4. I want one of the clear best players in the country because after the top 4 it gets a bit cloudy.

But we don't need to tank to do that as we aren't good enough to finish anywhere but last unless Adelaide or West Coast go on a massive tank mission.

We can beat West Coast, North, Adelaide and Port on the run home.

The other teams should have us covered if they play a reasonable game and at least one of those poorer teams we can beat will be better than us on the day depending on whether the good or bad versions of Port and North turn up.

3-4 wins. Pick four, priority pick, plenty of games being put into the kids and into them learning the game plan and we are well on our way. That's the realistic scenario.

I think this is right.

I'd accept last and 4 wins - with salutes against the Blues and Collingwood included

We are 1-9. A stellar youngster will help. A lot

 

[Bazzar]

In the last 3 games of this season we play against the Blues, Saints & Port. Now imagine going into those games with the following lineup:

B:Farmer Gourdis Moore
HB: Deledio McGuane Newman
C: Tambling Cotchin Jackson
HF: Astbury Griffiths Nason
F: Nahas Riewoldt Taylor
R: Graham Martin Foley
I/C: Vickery Tuck Edwards Webberley

RT you forgot Dan

 

[Kapital city TIGER]

absolutely, lets not get carried away this team still needs heaps of new talent

oh, I dont know...Im thinking....FLAG!

heres how it may pan out....
the enormous release of a long awaited win will do something special for our boys, going into the stadium v a complacent Saints who are coming off a big easy win and playing again at home, but still missing their biggest star, they have never been more beatable. and with the roof, a nice ground will be a treat for our lads after the swamp. Lots of youth in the side will recover quickly and be rearing to go Fri night - a shock upset looms. Then weve got a relativley easy cruise home with some big wins to make up our woeful %
smash WCE (BOG Benny)
another upset v Bris (I will be there cheering us over the line, probly make the difference tbh) and a few eyebrows are raised
then, embarrass freo, nth a solid performance v collywobbles before decimating crows, Ds and a stirring victory over the Blues and were a chance.
StK although not wanting to concede another game to us, will go all out, and show us what we need to do to beat them, then r22 in a muddle up caused by the remnants of Pt Adelaide (by now in recievership, their 5 or 6 good players already training with the Gold coast, Rodan begging to come back to tigerland) send a mishmash of players, to lose by an amount that I cannot forsee, as it is sooo HUGE. Bumps up our % just enough, we sneak in, with 10 wins, suprise everyone, the AFL hastily erects additional stands on top of the existing, top accomodate an extra 30,000 tigerfans for the GF, which, we WIN !

the first of many......



I missed the PTA game so I might not watch any more as I am convinced I am the mozz

 

[CallMeAl]

I really take issue with some of the definitions being used here.

It's not "experimenting" when you suddenly send your defenders to attack and your forwards to defense in the last quarter of Round 18. Melbourne's aim was not to figure out whether Petterd would make a good defender. It was to lose the match.


It's not "tanking" to give games to kids rather than veterans once you believe you can't make finals. If you're out of the running for 2010, you stop giving games to players who won't be with you next year anyway, get more conservative with managing injury, and focus on 2011. But on match day every one of your players and coaches wants to win that game.

Tanking is when you attempt to lose. RFC has never done this and I hope to god never will.

Spot on. A big diffderence between losing beeing the end result of a bigger picture than deliberatley losing.

While we are on the subject of definitions, lets call tanking what it is - Match fixing, or cheating.

A question on this subject.

Can any one name a successful person or organisation, in any field, any where in the world, that achieved their success by doing anything, besides striving to be the best at all times?

 

[tugga]

I doubt whether we are good enough to finish higher than 16th, but a couple of clubs above might really put the cue in the rack soon. I want pick 4.

 

[Chops18]

I'd rather us get a few more wins over pick 4 any day of the week. Who's to say pick 4 is going to be better than say pick 6 8 15 etc...
I still think we can finish at least 14th people forget that the Crows Roo's and Eagles are just as ordinary as what we have been if not worse (seeing as they have more experienced players) than us this year.

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

A question on this subject.

Can any one name a successful person or organisation, in any field, any where in the world, that achieved their success by doing anything, besides striving to be the best at all times?

Can you name a successful person or organisation, in any field, anywhere in the world that's forced to operate within a contrived system that rewards failure like the AFL?

 

[CallMeAl]

Can you name a successful person or organisation, in any field, anywhere in the world that's forced to operate within a contrived system that rewards failure like the AFL?

Geelong Football Club

 

[Barnzy]

I'd rather us get a few more wins over pick 4 any day of the week. Who's to say pick 4 is going to be better than say pick 6 8 15 etc...
I still think we can finish at least 14th people forget that the Crows Roo's and Eagles are just as ordinary as what we have been if not worse (seeing as they have more experienced players) than us this year.

I hope the club doesn't think that way. Would be just so dumb and typical Richmond.

Winning meaningless games against other shit or middle of the round teams that have put the cue in the rack for the season that costs us better picks/more picks (P.P). We still have the worst list in the comp, 1 win doesn't change that. Some cheap wins later on in the season that hurt us long-term will do us no good. Just like 2008/2009. All that winning culture crap that people go on about is absolute B.S. It does nothing if you don't have the talent.

 

[Bruce Monteath]

Geelong Football Club

Al, it's been noted a number of times that Geelong's father / son picks could roughly equate to a normal team bottoming out over a couple of years, and even resulted in a rule change. More evidence of the AFL's contrived system.

I would argue Hawthorn is a better example. Consciously bottomed out over a number of seasons and, while maybe not throwing games, certainly employed a strategy of minimising success in the short term to achieve their premiership.

I agree we shouldn't specifically throw or "tank" any games but I also see the logic in short term pain for long term gain.

(Spot on Barnzy. And I think Dimma is a "big picture" kind of bloke too.)

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

Well let's not mention the father/son picks(EDIT:i.e.What Bruce said).......but look at the "assistance" most of the other premiers this decade have recieved through either concessions (Sydney & Brisbane) given for failing to attract supporters, players and being basket cases both on & off the field, or draft picks gained from deliberately losing (West Coast & Hawthorn).

Not to mention challengers like St.Kilda and up & comers like Carlton, Freo & Melbourne.

 

[_RT_]

I hope the club doesn't think that way. Would be just so dumb and typical Richmond.

Winning meaningless games against other shit or middle of the round teams that have put the cue in the rack for the season that costs us better picks/more picks (P.P). We still have the worst list in the comp, 1 win doesn't change that. Some cheap wins later on in the season that hurt us long-term will do us no good. Just like 2008/2009. All that winning culture crap that people go on about is absolute B.S. It does nothing if you don't have the talent.

Fair enough regarding winning against the shit/middle of the road sides, but I want to put a different scenario to you and others.

This year from rounds 15-21 we play Freo(MCG R15), the Pies(MCG R17), the Saints(Dome R21) & Blues(MCG R20). All 4 are likely to be in the finals and when we play them there is no way they will have put the cue in the rack. Now lets for a moment assume that we find ourselves in a winning position in 2 of those matches, having entered the game with the following lineup:

B:Farmer Gourdis Moore
HB: Deledio McGuane Newman
C: Tambling Cotchin Jackson
HF: Astbury Griffiths Nason
F: Nahas Riewoldt Taylor
R: Graham Martin Foley
I/C: Vickery Tuck Edwards Connors

Would you prefer to see them fight out the game and walk off with a win and get a huge boost in confidence having beaten a couple of top 8 sides or would you prefer to see them get beaten just so we ensured that we maintained picks 4 & 27/28?


Given the make up of that side I know what I would prefer to see happen and that is a win.

 

[Barnzy]

Fair enough regarding winning against the shit/middle of the road sides, but I want to put a different scenario to you and others.

This year from rounds 15-21 we play Freo(MCG R15), the Pies(MCG R17), the Saints(Dome R21) & Blues(MCG R20). All 4 are likely to be in the finals and when we play them there is no way they will have put the cue in the rack. Now lets for a moment assume that we find ourselves in a winning position in 2 of those matches, having entered the game with the following lineup:

B:Farmer Gourdis Moore
HB: Deledio McGuane Newman
C: Tambling Cotchin Jackson
HF: Astbury Griffiths Nason
F: Nahas Riewoldt Taylor
R: Graham Martin Foley
I/C: Vickery Tuck Edwards Connors

Would you prefer to see them fight out the game and walk off with a win and get a huge boost in confidence having beaten a couple of top 8 sides or would you prefer to see them get beaten just so we ensured that we maintained picks 4 & 27/28?


Given the make up of that side I know what I would prefer to see happen and that is a win.

In that situation I wouldn't be too pissed off if we managed to upset some good top 8 teams with a lot of kids playing but honestly IMO our list is so bad we must ensure we get the best possible outcome this year and next year at the draft - pick 4, extra 2nd round pick (P.P), next year extra first round P.P, etc.

I couldn't see us beating any good teams though even if we tried to, I'm more worried about bad/middle of the road teams who have put the cue in the rack (early surgery, resting, "experimenting", etc) and we snatch a win or 2 costing us long term.

 

[_RT_]

In that situation I wouldn't be too pissed off if we managed to upset some good top 8 teams with a lot of kids playing but honestly IMO our list is so bad we must ensure we get the best possible outcome this year and next year at the draft - pick 4, extra 2nd round pick (P.P), next year extra first round P.P, etc.

I couldn't see us beating any good teams though even if we tried to, I'm more worried about bad/middle of the road teams who have put the cue in the rack (early surgery, resting, "experimenting", etc) and we snatch a win or 2 costing us long term.

I can't see us doing it either, but just wanted to find out if people who want us to get pick 4 & 27/28 would be prepared to forego a meaningful win or 2 to do so.

 

[Mr Magic]

Our team is well off premiership material yet. We have half a dozen that we likely be standouts and some highly promising youngsters.

But we cannot get ahead of ourselves. We are way off premiership material and the players know how to win as much as any time I have seen. We just need to concentrate on development and if we can get those good picks, Martin, Cotchin, Lids etcc.. have a reason to stay!!!

 

[TigerTime88]

Agree.

If we want a premiership then ensuring we get the PP this year and hopefully next is the way to go.

God we still need so much quality it's not funny. Don't let 1 win blind you.

 

[santa claws]

I can't see us doing it either, but just wanted to find out if people who want us to get pick 4 & 27/28 would be prepared to forego a meaningful win or 2 to do so.

if you win playing a shedload of kids against finals bound teams so be it. i have always said it. you dont manufature losses on game day, what ever happens on the day happens.perhaps we would prefer it didnt happen but like a lot have said the players dont tank.

im a firm believer you dont have to win to improve. and it really is a nonsense when late wins are put up as confidence boosters for the next yr.
its hogwash.
how many times have we seen late wins prove to be the exact opposite.

ya know we have won just one game but there has been big improvement in all sorts of areas. yep its good to get a win for all concerned but imo kids are always confident and always give 100% regardless of circumstances.

a simple mantra for me. make sure you have the cattle before foregoing any advantage you can get out of the afl.cattle first and in getting the cattle you do what ever it takes.

in doing a basic assessment of our players winning late games this yr regardless of who its against will do more long term harm than good. why because we dont have the cattle because we have so many glass half full types who must be replaced for improvement to continue.

so its rnd 22 we knock over carlton and lose pick 4 and a pp but geez its good for confidence not. you have 6 months before another shot is fired in anger. the scenario is its geelong you play first up and its a 10 goal belting what possible good would winning that game bring. what confidence is there to be gained by winning a game 6 months earlier.all its done is cost.