Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 3 * Coroner's Hearings Concluded

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 2

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[LRitz]

Interesting. Seems possible logistically. But why would FF go out and come back? Can't be anything to do with William as he is alive at 9.37 when FF is in Lakewood.
It just means FM took a different car, but why say she took her mother's car? To conceal forensic evidence in the Land Rover?
Also means with the car swapping this was a deliberate tactic.
BUT the problem is that FGM car is not seen passing the tennis club in either direction. And to deliberately avoid the tennis club CCTV implies a planned conspiracy BEFORE William disappears. IMO this is tinfoil hat stuff. But others may think differently.

Tinfoil hat
There is another way to drive without going by the tennis club, isn't there. Batar Creek rd is parallel. FF is not seen on tennis club on his return, deliberate or not. You could just claim that you drove another way. Maybe coming back via the general store made the return route by FF different to leaving.
The Land Rover could have travelled on different roads to the Mazda.
Unlikely, but so is the whole morning.

 

[31550]

Tinfoil hat
There is another way to drive without going by the tennis club, isn't there. Batar Creek rd is parallel. FF is not seen on tennis club on his return, deliberate or not. You could just claim that you drove another way. Maybe coming back via the general store made the return route by FF different to leaving.
The Land Rover could have travelled on different roads to the Mazda.
Unlikely, but so is the whole morning.

Are you sure FF is not seen on CCTV on his return?
Are you sure the Land Rover is not seen on CCTV in Lakewood and/or on the return visit? (Chumley claims it is).
What would be the reason for swapping cars and taking the alternative route, if not a conspiracy?

 

[InTheBleachers]

You will have to post your sources if you want me to believe that.

I have already provided credible public sources in posts 490 and 491. I won't be providing any more of my sources. You can believe what you want to believe. There is so much misinformation out there anyway.
If you prefer to believe the FM's confused statements over the phone records and Spedding's interview information, that is up to you.
I won't be further engaging on this subject. I have given the information.

 

[31550]

I have already provided credible public sources in posts 490 and 491. I won't be providing any more of my sources. You can believe what you want to believe. There is so much misinformation out there anyway.
If you prefer to believe the FM's confused statements over the phone records and Spedding's interview information, that is up to you.
I won't be further engaging on this subject. I have given the information.

You either have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, or are deliberately trying to spread misinformation.
Either way, thanks and goodbye.

 

[LRitz]

No it was not Spedding. It was Owen. According to FGM walkthrough.

Spedding was not told not to come. They WANTED him to come according to FGM testimony.

Any thoughts why they concealed this call to Spedding at 9:03, or denied this call, or omitted or forgot this call.

Any thing that happened before the 9:37 photo, in the accident/ incident FM hide the body scenario, should not have any impact on the later actions of the day. At 9:03 everything should have been routine.

 

[LRitz]

Are you sure FF is not seen on CCTV on his return?
Are you sure the Land Rover is not seen on CCTV in Lakewood and/or on the return visit? (Chumley claims it is).
What would be the reason for swapping cars and taking the alternative route, if not a conspiracy?

Previous post said "he" was seen on CCTV at Lakewood. It did not say the car was seen, or the car was driving. Yes it would be interesting to know what the actual CCTV was. Maybe it was just assumed that he was still in the Land Rover. Was the Mazda warmer than the Land Rover. Police were sure that the Mazda had been driven. FM then claims she drove to look for William in the Mazda, but the truck driver Peter, did not recall seeing aMazda drive near Cobb and Co. Though it was possible he missed it, but the coroners court seemed to spend some time saying that the Mazda was not seen by the truck driver who seemed to have a pretty good memory of the morning.

 

[31550]

Any thoughts why they concealed this call to Spedding at 9:03, or denied this call, or omitted or forgot this call.

Any thing that happened before the 9:37 photo, in the accident/ incident FM hide the body scenario, should not have any impact on the later actions of the day. At 9:03 everything should have been routine.

No evidence it was deliberately concealed. But denied by FGM in her walkthrough, so she either lied, forgot, or didn't hear the call.
No idea why she would do any of those 3.

 

[31550]

Previous post said "he" was seen on CCTV at Lakewood. It did not say the car was seen, or the car was driving. Yes it would be interesting to know what the actual CCTV was. Maybe it was just assumed that he was still in the Land Rover. Was the Mazda warmer than the Land Rover. Police were sure that the Mazda had been driven. FM then claims she drove to look for William in the Mazda, but the truck driver Peter, did not recall seeing aMazda drive near Cobb and Co. Though it was possible he missed it, but the coroners court seemed to spend some time saying that the Mazda was not seen by the truck driver who seemed to have a pretty good memory of the morning.

The FM drive could have been before or after Peter - not sure of exact times. Or she may have passed the intersection when he was on Michelle's property loading or unloading. Or she may have driven elsewhere. Or Peter's memory might be fallible.
I think she was earlier than Peter.

 

[LRitz]

The FM drive could have been before or after Peter - not sure of exact times. Or she may have passed the intersection when he was on Michelle's property loading or unloading. Or she may have driven elsewhere. Or Peter's memory might be fallible.
I think she was earlier than Peter.

And in which car.

 

[Lady O]

View attachment 2206759

And in which car.

Guess.

 

[stormbird]

In 2014 the Kendall tennis courts and their CCTV camera were in Graham Street:

Daily Telegraph, 15 Nov 2014 (not paywalled):

"Investigators will today set up at the Kendall Tennis Club with still images taken of all cars captured on the club’s CCTV camera on the morning William went missing in the hope of identifying any suspicious vehicles.
Port Macquarie Superintendent Paul Fehon, who is leading the investigation [?] into the three-year-old’s disappearance nine weeks ago, said police were asking everyone who drove past the Graham St club before 11am on September 12 to come forward and identify their vehicle."

The tennis courts in Orara St didn't exist in 2014: see Camden Haven Courier, 07 Nov 2014. The article was paywalled retrospectively; it used to be possible to see that "The new site, on a parcel of land behind Kendall's swimming pool was purchased by council from the Australian Rail Corporation in 2013.
"The first step will be ground works to prepare the site. It's only the beginning, and work will have to be staged, but it's definitely a start."

When William went missing, the courts in Graham St were near the rail crossing (on the road to/from Kew) and across the road from the Kendall Community Op Shop.

On the map below:

- red is Kendall Tennis Club (Graham St)

- yellow is the railway line (I think the only Kendall rail crossing was next to the tennis club?)

- blue lines are the Kendall streets connecting to the road to/from Kew which went via the bridge over the river (I think the only bridge in or out of Kendall?)

 

[stormbird]

Get the facts right.

We don't know that it was Geoff Owen who rang.
The call came from Geoff Owen's phone but it went unanswered. Around 9am.

The call to Spedding was outgoing and he was NOT told not to come - in fact it was FM calling him to chase him up and see when he WAS coming (according to her narrative). The call was around 9am. Not afternoon.

Both calls are forensically confirmed.

FGM said she rang Owen in the Friday afternoon to tell him NOT to come. But he wasn't due until Tuesday. Suspicious. She KNEW the investigation would still be going on Tuesday? Also FGM says Owen 'knew what was going on' when she rang him in the early afternoon. How could Owen possibly know that William was FGMs foster grandson and was the missing child so quickly?

"Get the facts right." Seriously?! How rude.

 

[Lady O]

"Get the facts right." Seriously?! How rude.

I don't think that was aimed at you. There are some people on here who are trolling, by asking provocative questions or making untrue statements. It's becoming a bit obvious, when they are just stirring constantly.

 

[stormbird]

I don't think that was aimed at you. There are some people on here who are trolling, by asking provocative questions or making untrue statements. It's becoming a bit obvious, when they are just stirring constantly.

I don't think it was aimed at me either. It was aimed at a Debutant member who had posted sources for what they were saying. Maybe rude member and Debutant member have a history, or are joking, or are trolling, or are both personas created by one person. It's still stupid rudeness.

 

[LRitz]

In 2014 the Kendall tennis courts and their CCTV camera were in Graham Street:

Daily Telegraph, 15 Nov 2014 (not paywalled):

"Investigators will today set up at the Kendall Tennis Club with still images taken of all cars captured on the club’s CCTV camera on the morning William went missing in the hope of identifying any suspicious vehicles.
Port Macquarie Superintendent Paul Fehon, who is leading the investigation [?] into the three-year-old’s disappearance nine weeks ago, said police were asking everyone who drove past the Graham St club before 11am on September 12 to come forward and identify their vehicle."

The tennis courts in Orara St didn't exist in 2014: see Camden Haven Courier, 07 Nov 2014. The article was paywalled retrospectively; it used to be possible to see that "The new site, on a parcel of land behind Kendall's swimming pool was purchased by council from the Australian Rail Corporation in 2013.
"The first step will be ground works to prepare the site. It's only the beginning, and work will have to be staged, but it's definitely a start."

When William went missing, the courts in Graham St were near the rail crossing (on the road to/from Kew) and across the road from the Kendall Community Op Shop.

On the map below:

- red is Kendall Tennis Club (Graham St)

- yellow is the railway line (I think the only Kendall rail crossing was next to the tennis club?)

- blue lines are the Kendall streets connecting to the road to/from Kew which went via the bridge over the river (I think the only bridge in or out of Kendall?)


View attachment 2206835

A bit confusing that the tennis club is moved since 2014. But it has been pointed out that you can reach Lakewood by Logans Crossing rd that also has a bridge over the river. It does not add that much time to the trip.
Does add a degree of difficulty with car swap.Would FF have time to circle back, which would have been a 10 minute trip.

FM was at Benaroon drive on the phone at 9:03 and also at 9:35 for the photos. That would however give her about 25 minutes travelling time.

 

[InTheBleachers]

I don't think it was aimed at me either. It was aimed at a Debutant member who had posted sources for what they were saying. Maybe rude member and Debutant member have a history, or are joking, or are trolling, or are both personas created by one person. It's still stupid rudeness.

It wasn't trolling, joking, history, or trouble making. It was information from credible sources. But I suppose that some don't like it and respond in an intimidating way because they strongly disagree.

 

[Kurve]

What's going on in here? What's this disagreement about?

 

[Lady O]

What's going on in here? What's this disagreement about?

Awww Mum, those new kids are saying silly stuff and trying to start fights.

 

[js47]

Previous post said "he" was seen on CCTV at Lakewood. It did not say the car was seen, or the car was driving. Yes it would be interesting to know what the actual CCTV was. Maybe it was just assumed that he was still in the Land Rover. Was the Mazda warmer than the Land Rover. Police were sure that the Mazda had been driven. FM then claims she drove to look for William in the Mazda, but the truck driver Peter, did not recall seeing aMazda drive near Cobb and Co. Though it was possible he missed it, but the coroners court seemed to spend some time saying that the Mazda was not seen by the truck driver who seemed to have a pretty good memory of the morning.

The FF at some time probably needed petrol. I cannot find any mention of this. Any cameras? If it was Kendall I would imagine the fosters would be known. The FGM had been living there a long time and they would have been visiting the FGM.

 

[shorsky]

Oh! I don’t know Shorsky, I thought i’d read in here that FGF owned a 4wd. I might be totally confused with sightings of 4wds.

Oh ok, I wouldn’t have a clue of their circumstances tbh.

I did find it interesting that FM was asked if she had access to any other vehicle - possibly to do with the fact that no one saw FGM vehicle on the road in the estimated timeframe of the FM drive.

However I don’t put too much weight on that.

I couldn’t tell you what cars I saw in the course of my drive today - let alone being asked about them days later !

I did however wave to my neighbour who went past yesterday when I was in the garden - my point being that my brain registers if I recognise a vehicle, all others are just ‘meaningless traffic’ unless something happens to draw attention to them.

On THAT day, no one (publicly)was aware that William had disappeared, until the FF arrived back at #48 at 10.33am (somehow that seems to have been classified as his arrival time) and AMS testified to speaking with FM & hearing the news at 10.40 am. ….. with all activity stepping up from that point.

William’s presence there at 9.37 am that morning has been verified by acceptance of the Photo on the patio, and I can certainly imagine him struggling to contain his boredom, and jumping off the patio to play, almost immediately after that photo was taken.

There’s been various reports of his activity at time of his disappearance - he was playing ‘Daddy Tiger’ / he was playing hide’n-seek with his sister / they were playing on the grass etc

I don’t accept that William was playing with L.
Aside from anything else, she was totally engrossed in the ‘work’ she was doing on the patio & I doubt would’ve been keen to interrupt that to play with her little brother….. and he was bursting with energy, no need to wait to play with his sister.

I can imagine him rolling around the grass off the patio, and running off around the corner a few times roaring etc, - BUT I can’t see him doing that for very long - UNLESS he was very upset and was going ‘to find Daddy’.

If he was in that state, as a barely turned 3 years old I’d think there may have been a lot of crying & possibly ‘ I hate you’ stuff before he ran off.
Possibly something that L was used to, but I think FGM would have questioned the behaviour ‘what's wrong with him, does he have ? ? ‘
FM no doubt reassured her mother & went after William ( FGM went back to her newspaper, and possibly chatting with L, relishing the tranquility)

IF something sinister occurred, I can imagine that it would be quite possible to reverse a car from that carport, very silently down that driveway and out on to Benaroon Drive, then change gear to drive and head off ( is this what Crabbs heard, thinking it was like a vehicle turning on gravel )


Am also thinking about Paul Savage mentioning a different vehicle in FGM driveway - was that on the Thursday ?

FGM said she had been shopping that day, perhaps someone took her since she had been unwell - surely that vehicle was checked out. So many mystery vehicles !

 

[LRitz]

The FF at some time probably needed petrol. I cannot find any mention of this. Any cameras? If it was Kendall I would imagine the fosters would be known. The FGM had been living there a long time and they would have been visiting the FGM.

I think Land rovers have pretty big tanks for all that off road stuff and adventuring. I bet they could get from Sydney to Kendall and still have reserve.

 

[LRitz]

No it was not Spedding. It was Owen. According to FGM walkthrough.

Spedding was not told not to come. They WANTED him to come according to FGM testimony.

Re phone call to Spedding at 9:03.

I said previously that the phone call had some questions.
It is made early. If it was any early it would have been before business hours (especially in Kendall ).
Everybody knows. The part has not been delivered. The machine can not be fixed until the part arrives. Ringing up and making a fuss will not speed things up, and could ruffle feathers.
Fosters are in Kendall for only a couple of days. They do not need the washing machine.
The FGM will be able to catch up on the washing later.
The FM omits the phone call in her statement
the FGM seems to deny any phone calls in her walkthrough.

Easy explanation is that FM just wants to remind Spedding that it is important for FGM to have the machine fixed. FM just overlooked and forgot to mention this call in her first statement. FGM did not know that FM called Spedding, but this is a bit hard to believe.(FGM says she is in the kitchen around this time having breakfast with the children, and why wouldn't FM have told FGM that she is giving him a call?).

Other possibilities. FM wanted to know if Spedding was coming on Friday.

Or, FM would know that phone records would be looked at by police, and FM wanted proof that she was at the house at 9:03.

 

[31550]

Re phone call to Spedding at 9:03.

I said previously that the phone call had some questions.
It is made early. If it was any early it would have been before business hours (especially in Kendall ).
Everybody knows. The part has not been delivered. The machine can not be fixed until the part arrives. Ringing up and making a fuss will not speed things up, and could ruffle feathers.
Fosters are in Kendall for only a couple of days. They do not need the washing machine.
The FGM will be able to catch up on the washing later.
The FM omits the phone call in her statement
the FGM seems to deny any phone calls in her walkthrough.

Easy explanation is that FM just wants to remind Spedding that it is important for FGM to have the machine fixed. FM just overlooked and forgot to mention this call in her first statement. FGM did not know that FM called Spedding, but this is a bit hard to believe.(FGM says she is in the kitchen around this time having breakfast with the children, and why wouldn't FM have told FGM that she is giving him a call?).

Other possibilities. FM wanted to know if Spedding was coming on Friday.

Or, FM would know that phone records would be looked at by police, and FM wanted proof that she was at the house at 9:03.

Both explanations are possible. What I find interesting is the short time period between the incoming call made from Owen's phone, and the outgoing call to Spedding. Why did nobody answer Owen's call? Or notice the missed call and call him back? Did FM take control of the phone and conceal it from FGM? Was FGM really involved in any of the morning activities, or has that involvement been woven into the narrative to supply an alibi for FM? Besides sitting on the verandah reading the paper when FM snapped a few photos of William, we don't know for sure what FGM did that morning - her own walkthrough is very muddled and conflicting.

I think the house was in chaos during the morning, and FM was trying to control things, e.g. get the washing machine fixed. I think she was overwhelmed with looking after two kids (and possibly her mother) in a strange environment. FF leaving her stranded. FGM not helping. William being uncontrollable, ...

To imply the call to Spedding was to ensure he was not around suggests some sort of conspiracy, which I don't believe in. She may have wanted the machine fixed, or maybe she didn't want to put up with a random visitor while the house was in chaos? We may never know for sure.

 

[LRitz]

Am also thinking about Paul Savage mentioning a different vehicle in FGM driveway - was that on the Thursday ?

FGM said she had been shopping that day, perhaps someone took her since she had been unwell - surely that vehicle was checked out. So many mystery vehicles !

In FGM walkthrough (longer version) she says she went to Kendall to the community centre, picked up some meals, and then on to Lauriton for shopping and home in the afternoon. She did not sound as if she was sick or unwell. She does not mention that someone else drove her. She does not mention any visitors on Thursday.

Paul Savage's witness evidence may have been dismissed. It was before the fosters arrived so thought not so important. He may not have been believed or thought to be confused. Remember the police did not take a liking to him. And after all others say they saw cars that may not have been there.

but here's the thing. Paul Savage would be pretty aware of what is going on in his street. Seeing a 4 wheel drive at FGM's house would have been unusual so he would take note of it. And he knows a Mazda from a Land Rover. Why would he make this up? FGM would no doubt have been questioned about everyone at her house in the days before. So maybe they know who visited.

I wonder if he said he saw the Land Rover the day before, but that he had actually seen it on Wednesday (i.e. the day before they arrived). I wonder who picked up the kids from day care on the Tuesday and Wednesday that week.( I will add this to my growing list of questions after i buy another roll of aluminium foil)

 

[31550]

In FGM walkthrough (longer version) she says she went to Kendall to the community centre, picked up some meals, and then on to Lauriton for shopping and home in the afternoon. She did not sound as if she was sick or unwell. She does not mention that someone else drove her. She does not mention any visitors on Thursday.

Paul Savage's witness evidence may have been dismissed. It was before the fosters arrived so thought not so important. He may not have been believed or thought to be confused. Remember the police did not take a liking to him. And after all others say they saw cars that may not have been there.

but here's the thing. Paul Savage would be pretty aware of what is going on in his street. Seeing a 4 wheel drive at FGM's house would have been unusual so he would take note of it. And he knows a Mazda from a Land Rover. Why would he make this up? FGM would no doubt have been questioned about everyone at her house in the days before. So maybe they know who visited.

I wonder if he said he saw the Land Rover the day before, but that he had actually seen it on Wednesday (i.e. the day before they arrived). I wonder who picked up the kids from day care on the Tuesday and Wednesday that week.( I will add this to my growing list of questions after i buy another roll of aluminium foil)

There have been reports that FMs sister was visiting FGM in the days before William disappeared. Would be good to know where she came from, where she stayed, what car she drove, and when she left Kendall. Did she leave to avoid FM? Why wasn't she there searching?