Carlton 2024 - Are they being overestimated?

[zyzzbruh]

Mmm it's a bit of a reach to say we don't have a system... We just play a different way to most of the other contenders this year.

I think it's a system more reliant on individual talent than others, but that's how our list is built so that's what we're forced to work with.

Carlton have a very straight forward game plan, try to get the ball in the hand of our best users in Saad, Newman, Elijah Hollands, Cerra etc who can penetrate the corridor and change angles, if they aren't open then we more often than not kick it down the line to Curnow, Dekoning and Mckay who will be surrounded by crumbing mids and half forwards out on the wings. This is because we only have a select number of 'good' kicks in the team capable of hitting those targets where as a team like the Swans have far more consistent foot skills across the park which allows them to slice through opposition teams even when certain players are well held. It also helps that Curnow, Mckay and Dekoning are excellent at bringing the ball to ground so it's a perfectly viable option for us.

Our defense has been leaky regarding stoppage and centre clearances but we're still the number 1 defense of turnover in the competition according to CD and the 2nd best score from turnover team in the comp too.

You don't get that return re turnovers unless you've got a fairly good system or at least something that works most of the time, it's just not as pretty or consistent as others.

Whether or not we agree on the why, I think you can see that there is an insufficiency there. My question is whether or not those players you speak of are truly not good enough skill wise like you say, or whether it is actually a coaching problem…

I think what you definitely do have is too many confidence players who pick and choose when to turn it on, so that doesn’t help (and I think it’s one of your major flaws). But what makes me lean towards the coaching is that other than throwing Curnow into defence for obvious reasons, rarely do you see Vossy implement a change mid game in an attempt to shift momentum. You seem to have 1 mode (if you can call it that), and that mode is too reliant on randomness and contested marking. Even some of the poorer outfits have a discernible method of moving the ball up the ground. With you guys it’s a genuine mystery what is going to happen. It’s a case of rolling the same randomness dice over and over again in the hopes that a few players link up and their individual talent gets you over the line, which in many cases it does because there are some genuine guns in there. But if you want to win 3 finals games in a row against the very best to take out a granny, to get lucky 3 times in a row is going to be a stretch.

I think you are aware of it anyway. I’ve just been more so bemused by a large cohort of Carlton supporters who ooze confidence thinking they are actually a great ‘football’ side. Then after a couple of losses (expected ones imo), they seem surprised and dumbfounded. I had never been more confident tipping the dogs and gws this year.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Whether or not we agree on the why, I think you can see that there is an insufficiency there. My question is whether or not those players you speak of are truly not good enough skill wise like you say, or whether it is actually a coaching problem…

I think what you definitely do have is too many confidence players who pick and choose when to turn it on, so that doesn’t help (and I think it’s one of your major flaws). But what makes me lean towards the coaching is that other than throwing Curnow into defence for obvious reasons, rarely do you see Vossy implement a change mid game in an attempt to shift momentum. You seem to have 1 mode (if you can call it that), and that mode is too reliant on randomness and contested marking. Even some of the poorer outfits have a discernible method of moving the ball up the ground. With you guys it’s a genuine mystery what is going to happen. It’s a case of rolling the same randomness dice over and over again in the hopes that a few players link up and their individual talent gets you over the line, which in many cases it does because there are some genuine guns in there. But if you want to win 3 finals games in a row against the very best to take out a granny, to get lucky 3 times in a row is going to be a stretch.

I think you are aware of it anyway. I’ve just been more so bemused by a large cohort of Carlton supporters who ooze confidence thinking they are actually a great ‘football’ side. Then after a couple of losses (expected ones imo), they seem surprised and dumbfounded. I had never been more confident tipping the dogs and gws this year.

Yeah... I just don't agree with your analysis on this. I understand what you're saying but disagree on the conclusion.

I think we have a perfectly fine system built around the players we've got on our list. Would I like to improve the overall kicking skills and speed on the list at the end of the year? Absolutely. I think that will allow us to shift modes in game and be a more consistent side against a variety of opposition teams rather than looking vulnerable against certain teams.

Imo Voss is getting the best out of a somewhat limited group (in terms of their ability to change modes on a whim) and as a result we're in a good position to have a crack at things if we're healthy and confident leading into the finals.

 

[zyzzbruh]

Yeah... I just don't agree with your analysis on this. I understand what you're saying but disagree on the conclusion.

I think we have a perfectly fine system built around the players we've got on our list. Would I like to improve the overall kicking skills and speed on the list at the end of the year? Absolutely. I think that will allow us to shift modes in game and be a more consistent side against a variety of opposition teams rather than looking vulnerable against certain teams.

Imo Voss is getting the best out of a somewhat limited group (in terms of their ability to change modes on a whim) and as a result we're in a good position to have a crack at things if we're healthy and confident leading into the finals.

Look you're more than likely right about the skill of the players. I'm just not so sure I believe that Vossy has observed and conceided that his team is not good enough skill wise, and so reverts to a game plan that hides that deficiency. I feel like in that situation a coach would be more likely to challenge his players to be become better in that aspect. I believe more so that Vossy wants them to do it but the team struggles to do so.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Exactly this.

You guys are also top heavy whenever Pittonet comes into the lineup. He's an old school dinosaur ruckman. Going against a ruck like English and Darcy as the backup for whenever English takes a spell, you get nothing else in terms of versatility around the ground.
You throw in a very one dimensional (extremely combative) midfield brigade, teams who are prepared to mix things up will run through you like butter.

Yeah pretty much. Against certain teams if we don't dominate stoppages and contested ball we get lit up the other way. Against other teams we generally just smash them in all areas of the field so it doesn't matter as much.

Brisbane, Adelaide and St Kilda have been this groups cryptonite for some time now due to how they can match up against us. The WBD game this weekend was a bit off a surprise for me though, normally we have a fairly good record against them and their slower mids.

The Pittonet thing has been an interesting debate in years past but I think it's clear now that the way forward is TDK to be the main man.

Anyway I'd still be pretty confident against majority of the top 8, but I've said on many many threads now... I don't want to see Brisbane come finals under any circumstances. They match up against us the best of any team IMO. I'd prefer Sydney at the SCG than Brisbane at the G despite my opinion that Sydney is a far better team in 2024.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Look you're more than likely right about the skill of the players. I'm just not so sure I believe that Vossy has observed and conceided that his team is not good enough skill wise, and so reverts to a game plan that hides that deficiency. I feel like in that situation a coach would be more likely to challenge his players to be become better in that aspect. I believe more so that Vossy wants them to do it but the team struggles to do so.

Time will tell I guess. If the list team doesn't make some moves to add some more footskills and speed end of year I don't think there would be any way to argue that it's not a coaching flaw.

But personally I think we'll see a few moves this off season to try and add some more class to our team even if it means losing one or two of the big combatant bruisers to do so.

Coaches see things differently to fans but I just can't imagine a world where a coaching team could look at our list compared to the Swans, or Freo, or Geelong etc and think we're on equal footing when it comes to our ability to efficiently move the ball from end to end by foot.

Cap constraints and a lack of draft picks may make it difficult to fully address in one off season however.

 

[Bushdid911]

The WBD game this weekend was a bit off a surprise for me though, normally we have a fairly good record against them and their slower mids.

You've lost 3 of your last 4 v Dogs, and the one win you kicked 16.6 to Dogs 13.12, so shouldn't have been that much of a surprise.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Wow. Quoting a post from early May in mid-July when this thread hasn't been touched since mid-May and even admitting that there were over the top comments present in the other thread (but it was either a joke or a gimmick, bro). Blues fans are a rare breed.

It popped up in the recommended threads at the bottom of the page. People bump threads all the time. Not that big of a deal. Certainly not "wow" worthy.

You literally claimed that there were 5 pages where "you'll see some pretty over the top hype comments from Carlton supporters. Some were probably said in jest, but it's obvious that Carlton supporters really believed back then that their team was going to do something special this season (they still might). I found that strange at the time considering they were undefeated going into round 5 last year as well and went on to lose 7 of their following 9 games."

Such a definitive statement based on 1 or 2 obvious jokes from myself and ONE other poster, who is making a habit of deliberately being obnoxiously confident.
Can you point to one other comment from someone else in those first 5 pages that fits your 'over the top' description of the thread? I mean your post that I quoted in the bump was probably more wow worthy than my bump, considering it's basically just completely fabricated.

I guess it was just an attempt to get some overly excited, foaming at the mouth likes from the usual Carlton trolls who frequent these threads.

 

[GC2015]

It popped up in the recommended threads at the bottom of the page. People bump threads all the time. Not that big of a deal. Certainly not "wow" worthy.

You literally claimed that there were 5 pages where "you'll see some pretty over the top hype comments from Carlton supporters. Some were probably said in jest, but it's obvious that Carlton supporters really believed back then that their team was going to do something special this season (they still might). I found that strange at the time considering they were undefeated going into round 5 last year as well and went on to lose 7 of their following 9 games."

Such a definitive statement based on 1 or 2 obvious jokes from myself and ONE other poster, who is making a habit of deliberately being obnoxiously confident.
Can you point to one other comment from someone else in those first 5 pages that fits your 'over the top' description of the thread? I mean your post that I quoted in the bump was probably more wow worthy than my bump, considering it's basically just completely fabricated.

I guess it was just an attempt to get some overly excited, foaming at the mouth likes from the usual Carlton trolls who frequent these threads.

It's old news, mate. We're up to round 19 now and you're fixating on a post from 10 rounds ago for no other reason than it apparently coming up as a recommended thread. What makes it even more strange is the post that you quoted wasn't even on the page that you bumped. You literally went back three pages (or forward eight pages) to quote it. Bizarre behaviour.

I gave my opinion on what was happening back in round 9. You disagreed during round 18. Time to move on, bud.

 

[Ess2025]

The good news for Carlton is that their problems can be fixed - it's not a personnel issue - just need to tweak a few things. For example, 39 points up against Giants late in first quarter, only to concede the 14 next 16 goals. What I couldn't understand there was that the Giants kicked 7 goals to 2 in the second and, at half time, Carlton led by just 2 points. I thought at half time, they might reset, change things up and get momentum back in the third. Strangely, they went on to concede 7 goals to one.

It's a concern that they have bled goals in the past two weeks and have had defensive problems but, again, this can be fixed. Apparently, the players had an honest and confronting meeting yesterday surrounding these things. They have plenty of time to get it right and are still second on the ladder.

 

[bourbons]

The good news for Carlton is that their problems can be fixed

It can, just not convinced it can be fixed this year (flag wise).

We're 15th for points against, no premier has been lower than 6th for the last 24 years.

 

[Taper]

Voss was at Port when they missed finals in 2018 after an 11-4 start.

Carlton are on track to miss finals this year after being 11-4.
They would be the first side to miss finals from 11-4 since Port in 2018.

I think people overestimated Carlton this year.

 

[fnerd]

 

[Cleansweep17]

I just realised I can’t change my vote in the poll so…

 

[My Tilly]

Two of the all time great forwards

And he has the nerve to say anyone thinks otherwise does not know the sport!

 

[BringFevBack2021]

Two of the all time great forwards

And he has the nerve to say anyone thinks otherwise does not know the sport!

One very good forward and one good forward

**** he is an annoying twit

 

[My Tilly]

One very good forward and one good forward

**** he is an annoying twit

I rate Curnow very highly. On natural ability alone, he's a generational talent so he's not wrong there but McKay is simply not that player. He is a good key forward who has reached his ceiling.

 

[Mr Meow]

I just realised I can’t change my vote in the poll so…

You hitched yourself to the wrong bandwagon.

 

[Mastiha]

If Sam Maclure was Sam MacToad would anyone give him a job?
He lacks objectivity, and just argues for the sake of arguing

 

[BringFevBack2021]

I rate Curnow very highly. On natural ability alone, he's a generational talent so he's not wrong there but McKay is simply not that player. He is a good key forward who has reached his ceiling.

Yeah, I would say Charlie is our best ever forward but I wouldn’t have McKay in that conversation

He’s good

But McClure going with “two of the all timers” or whatever is absolutely absurd

 

[VinnieB]

I rate Curnow very highly. On natural ability alone, he's a generational talent so he's not wrong there but McKay is simply not that player. He is a good key forward who has reached his ceiling.

Both lack footy smarts.

Curnow relies so much on his athleticism but rarely do you see him find space and lead into it.
He also burns alot of his players trying to be the hero and constantly misses goals when the Bloos need them. Maybe he should play wing or backline.

But I'd take McKay over Curnow. Even with his ordinary kicking for goal. Reminds me of Cloke. Miss the easy goals within 30m but kick those 50m out on a slight angle.

 

[Scritchyscroony]

Yeah, I would say Charlie is our best ever forward but I wouldn’t have McKay in that conversation

He’s good

But McClure going with “two of the all timers” or whatever is absolutely absurd

Fev and Kernahan were better than Curnow imo.

 

[BringFevBack2021]

Fev and Kernahan were better than Curnow imo.

Can’t speak for Kernahan but Charlie is better than Fevola, it’s just Fevola was extremely talented

 

[Scritchyscroony]

Can’t speak for Kernahan but Charlie is better than Fevola, it’s just Fevola was extremely talented

Curnow has no second effort, goes missing in finals and big games and gets a lot of soft free kicks. Kernahan easily better and I'd take Fev over him any day of the week. Fev played most of his career when Carlton were a basket case too!

 

[My Tilly]

But I'd take McKay over Curnow. Even with his ordinary kicking for goal. Reminds me of Cloke. Miss the easy goals within 30m but kick those 50m out on a slight angle.

I wouldn't.

Curnow can play anywhere. Literally anywhere. I don't know why Voss doesn't give him a run on the ball because he has the tank and could be similar to Koutoufides when he moved to the center on a full time basis middle of his career.
Cripps and Curnow would be dynamite. Maybe his knees won't hold up though?

Wouldn't work this year anyway with De Koning being out, as McKay alone up forward wouldn't cut it.

 

[Cleansweep17]

You hitched yourself to the wrong bandwagon.

I “Brad Johnsoned” the Blues

So GO THE CATS!!! Flag favourites for mine