Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[Rich01]

More likely that Geelong supporters are here because the only player of the last 25 years who has a legitimate claim to being the GOAT is as close to Geelong royalty as you get.

Sure. Let’s see how it all pans out in time. I have a feeling Dustin will be living Rent Free in certain Cats supporters for a few years yet. Let’s hope those usual suspects have healed enough to post in this thread less as time goes on.

 

[Cdog71]

I still maintain Judd’s peak was higher, Gablett did it for longer. If you had been watching the Eagles from 2003-07, you would have seen how good a footballer could be.

I think Judd changed what a midfielder can be, his burst around the stoppage. Teams couldnt deal with him

 

[Cdog71]

In his last four years, yes. But certainly not in his mid-twenties, when he was excellent and would have won a Brownlow but for some freak who used to be his teammate.

Selwood and Pendlebury are commonly grouped together for good reason - they couldn't do what Ablett, Fyfe, Dangerfield and Dusty could do. But what they did have was a level of career-long professionalism that, well, Ablett and Dusty at least, couldn't match.

And Selwood didn’t have the natural advantages of Pendlebury.
He wasn’t left sided didn’t have years of top level coaching like Pendlebury would have and of course the like for like of congestion in BBall and the congestion hanging around the backwash of an Aussie rules stoppage.
Selwood’s junior sport was athletics.
In his draft year he had the best times for every open age track event apart from the 100 mtr.
Pretty remarkable.
I’ve got alotve respect for him and there’s no doubt he was ready to go in his draft year and close to his potential, he improved but it was a pretty high bar when he started. Might be able he highest I’ve seen.

 

[iameviljez]

I still maintain Judd’s peak was higher, Gablett did it for longer. If you had been watching the Eagles from 2003-07, you would have seen how good a footballer could be.

In fairness, I didn’t watch much West Coast at the time.

 

[iameviljez]

And Selwood didn’t have the natural advantages of Pendlebury.
He wasn’t left sided didn’t have years of top level coaching like Pendlebury would have and of course the like for like of congestion in BBall and the congestion hanging around the backwash of an Aussie rules stoppage.
Selwood’s junior sport was athletics.
In his draft year he had the best times for every open age track event apart from the 100 mtr.
Pretty remarkable.
I’ve got alotve respect for him and there’s no doubt he was ready to go in his draft year and close to his potential, he improved but it was a pretty high bar when he started. Might be able he highest I’ve seen.

I’ve been waiting for someone else on BigFooty to have looked into his high school years and also discover that he played basketball!

 

[Cdog71]

I’ve been waiting for someone else on BigFooty to have looked into his high school years and also discover that

Joel was pretty ordinary at bball

 

[doppleganger]

I think Judd changed what a midfielder can be, his burst around the stoppage. Teams couldnt deal with him

WC were blessed to have Cuz, Judd and Kerr all flying from 2003-07. All different types of mids, that complimented each other too.

Cuz the gut running endurance star - winning MVP, Brownlow in 2005 and 2 BnFs

Kerr the balanced clean inside star - with 3 consecutive top 3 brownlow votes

Judd the explosive goal kicking clearance star (best version of himself), Brownlow, MVP and 2 BnFs.

What a midfield!!

 

[RUNVS]

WC were blessed to have Cuz, Judd and Kerr all flying from 2003-07. All different types of mids, that complimented each other too.

Cuz the gut running endurance star - winning MVP, Brownlow in 2005 and 2 BnFs

Kerr the balanced clean inside star - with 3 consecutive top 3 brownlow votes

Judd the explosive goal kicking clearance star (best version of himself), Brownlow, MVP and 2 BnFs.

What a midfield!!

All of them feared the mighty Brett Kirk though

 

[FootyLad0]

All of them feared the mighty Brett Kirk though

Jokes aside Kirky is severely underrated

 

[Let me tell ya]

I'm telling you guys, the climate change bashers are loving these winter fires in LA, the longer they burn the more they get to promote their false religion.

Jesus Christ performed many miracles so people could believe that He was the expectation of the nations mentioned in the Old Testament, so do these climate change bashers start many winter fires to convince people of their false religion, I'm telling ya these climate change bashers are loving these winter fires and the opportunity it's giving them to spread the bad news.

 

[doppleganger]

All of them feared the mighty Brett Kirk though

Good footballer, but understand why players may have feared him...

 

[iameviljez]

Jokes aside Kirky is severely underrated

Any tagger who could hurt you the other way (Kirk, Ling, Cornes) was worth their weight in gold at the time.

 

[RUNVS]

Any tagger who could hurt you the other way (Kirk, Ling, Cornes) was worth their weight in gold at the time.

Kirk is actually the reason it took me so long to rate Sam Mitchell at all, because when Sydney played Hawthorn Sam Mitchell was usually pretty ineffective because Kirk was on him. Wasn't until Kirk got slower and then retired that I realised Sam Mitchell was a good player.

 

[Trav 20]

Yep so 45 matches out of 136 not included in his hot streaks he got 22 votes from 45 matches at around 0.5 votes per match(to go with his 1.55 votes per match the rest of the time in those 6 seasons.)

0.5 votes per match is the career average of players like Boak, Treloar, Brent Harvey, Jesaulenko, Carey, Cotchin, Maurice Rioli Sr, Robert Flower, Josh Kennedy of Swans fame....

So when Dusty hadn't hit his straps each year for those 6 years(average 7-8 games start of season, that was his level, around Josh Kennedy's career average. As you say, not good enough by Dusty. When he did hit his straps, the rest couldn't see which way he went.

In fairness to Robbie, it was pretty hard to get Brownlow votes in a side that was nearly always in contention to be the wooden spooner. In the first 14 years of his 15 year career they never played finals.

 

[Noidnadroj]

LoL - undisputed, unanimous you Dusty Tuggers love hyperbole.

Please, he has 3 norm smiths and 3 Gary Ayers medals which elevates his standing.

He has never been the best player in the game outside of 2017, he has only been the best player at Richmond in two seasons for fecks sake (and they include finals)

He is a guy who had 3 good finals series that topped off 3 of his 4 top seasons of quality footy.

Outside of those years, he wasn't that impactful as evidenced by having a lower career avg player rating then Rory Sloane.

So GAS was only Geelong’s best player once? And Matthew Lloyd never Essendon’s best player? And Stevie J never finished top-5 in a B&F … ever. Was he never rated by Geelong as one of their best 5 players? Weird.


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[Noidnadroj]

But according to how Noid assessed the GF he was rubbish.

Neale only had 1 combined goal and assist in the GF, his scoreboard impact was down 33% from H&A figures.

Disregard that Neale had most disposals, CPs, i50s, clearances and score launches for the Lions. His scoreboard impact was down 33%

Not at all. Are you referring to GAJ playing finals across 10 x seasons… and not exceeding his goal and GA averages in finals from H&A in any season ever?

Doesn’t mean GAJ wasn’t a very good finals player, he was. But he was a vastly superior H&A player than finals player over the entirety of his career. On balance Neale has been the same. As was Buddy. And Danger. And Pendles. And Fyfe. And Tomahawk. There’s a pattern emerging, isn’t there?

It’s much harder to perform to H&A levels in finals as you’re against the best opposition and under the most pressure with the most on the line.



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[Noidnadroj]

Yes. It has been acknowledged.

Nobody needs another stream of player ratings to help support it.

I'm not an old bloke so don't go back that far.

And awards like Norm Smith / Gary Ayers are only recent, so no real way of validating.

Yeah as that would be a GOAT comparison, Dusty doesn't belong in those conversations.

But in terms of players of the 2010s, player ratings has him on par with Joel Selwood...pretty fair.

But a fair gap between those two and player like GAJ, who would be the only recent mid-forward who would get in GOAT conversation.

Interesting ranking of players from the 2,000’s in HS today:

N Riewoldt
Scarlett
Goodes
Voss
Pendles
Danger
Judd
Martin
GAJ
Buddy

It’s just 2 x journo’s so no different to us coming up with a list … so more interesting and relevant was the public assessment of what they think of the rankings … independent of BF bias and with thousands of votes coming from supporters of every team etc…..and whether they think their ranking is overrated, underrated or spot on:

Nick R:
Overrated 55% / Underrated 20% / Agree 25%

Scarlett:
52% / 14% / 34%

Goodes:
56% / 19% / 25%

Voss:
19% / 46% / 35%

Pendles:
47% / 21% / 32%

Danger:
63% / 9% / 28%

Judd:
36% / 20% / 44%

Dusty:
24% / 40% / 36%

GAJ:
19% / 41% / 40%

Buddy:
58% / 8% / 34%

So it’s very interesting that Martin is ranked higher than Judd, Pendles and Danger, yet has a much lower percentage of people saying he’s overrated. And a much higher percentage of people saying he’s underrated.

So based on this, in the public’s eyes (footy loving public, as they’re the ones reading the article and voting) …. based on thousands of votes and not BF hyperbole or bias …GAJ is #1 and Dusty #2 this century.

In the footy public’s opinion … the likes of Judd, Danger, Pendles, Goodes, Scarlett and Riewoldt are not even within a bull’s roar of Martin. 40% of people say he’s underrated at #3. 9% of people say Danger is underated at #5 and 21% say Pendles is underrated at #6.

And 52% say Scarlett is overrated at #9. Says a bit.


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[Freomaniac]

1980s: Ayres
1990s: McLeod, but it's hard to say because only three sides played in three GFs (West Coast, Geelong and Carlton).
2000s: Probably Vossy or Paul Chapman.

1980s could be any hawks player.

1990s could be McLeod but he only played 2 finals series in 1997 and 1998.

I say Carey arguably could take that mantle with those finals from 1993-99.

Peter Matera kicked 6 or 7 goals in that 1992 grand final. He played a lot of finals in the 1990s along with other eagles players

 

[Freomaniac]

Skilton only played in one Final game? A semi final loss I thinks.

Robert Flower played 272 games from 1973 to 1987 for the demons.

He only played 3 finals. They were the last 3 games of his career

 

[PhatBoy]

Interesting ranking of players from the 2,000’s in HS today:

N Riewoldt
Scarlett
Goodes
Voss
Pendles
Danger
Judd
Martin
GAJ
Buddy

It’s just 2 x journo’s so no different to us coming up with a list … so more interesting and relevant was the public assessment of what they think of the rankings … independent of BF bias and with thousands of votes coming from supporters of every team etc…..and whether they think their ranking is overrated, underrated or spot on:

Nick R:
Overrated 55% / Underrated 20% / Agree 25%

Scarlett:
52% / 14% / 34%

Goodes:
56% / 19% / 25%

Voss:
19% / 46% / 35%

Pendles:
47% / 21% / 32%

Danger:
63% / 9% / 28%

Judd:
36% / 20% / 44%

Dusty:
24% / 40% / 36%

GAJ:
19% / 41% / 40%

Buddy:
58% / 8% / 34%

So it’s very interesting that Martin is ranked higher than Judd, Pendles and Danger, yet has a much lower percentage of people saying he’s overrated. And a much higher percentage of people saying he’s underrated.

So based on this, in the public’s eyes (footy loving public, as they’re the ones reading the article and voting) …. based on thousands of votes and not BF hyperbole or bias …GAJ is #1 and Dusty #2 this century.

In the footy public’s opinion … the likes of Judd, Danger, Pendles, Goodes, Scarlett and Riewoldt are not even within a bull’s roar of Martin. 40% of people say he’s underrated at #3. 9% of people say Danger is underated at #5 and 21% say Pendles is underrated at #6.

And 52% say Scarlett is overrated at #9. Says a bit.


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Im sure the fact that he’s pretty much universally despised outside of his own supporter group has nothing to do with the Dangerfield metric

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Im sure the fact that he’s pretty much universally despised outside of his own supporter group has nothing to do with the Dangerfield metric

Or people might be marking him down for vanishing after ht in several key finals when his team desperately needed him to lift.

Or the fact he has displayed a habit of bursting out of stoppages and slotting perfect propeller punts into row 17 at big moments.

But you are right, he is a ********er.

 

[PhatBoy]

Or people might be marking him down for vanishing after ht in several key finals when his team desperately needed him to lift.

Or the fact he has displayed a habit of bursting out of stoppages and slotting perfect propeller punts into row 17 at big moments.

But you are right, he is a ********er.

Good one.

 

[JackOutback]

And the 56 per cent that think Adam Goodes is overrated, I presume that's based solely on football reasons

It's a meaningless ranking backed up by meaningless stats.

 

[Mr Meow]

Interesting ranking of players from the 2,000’s in HS today:

N Riewoldt
Scarlett
Goodes
Voss
Pendles
Danger
Judd
Martin
GAJ
Buddy

It’s just 2 x journo’s so no different to us coming up with a list … so more interesting and relevant was the public assessment of what they think of the rankings … independent of BF bias and with thousands of votes coming from supporters of every team etc…..and whether they think their ranking is overrated, underrated or spot on:

Nick R:
Overrated 55% / Underrated 20% / Agree 25%

Scarlett:
52% / 14% / 34%

Goodes:
56% / 19% / 25%

Voss:
19% / 46% / 35%

Pendles:
47% / 21% / 32%

Danger:
63% / 9% / 28%

Judd:
36% / 20% / 44%

Dusty:
24% / 40% / 36%

GAJ:
19% / 41% / 40%

Buddy:
58% / 8% / 34%

So it’s very interesting that Martin is ranked higher than Judd, Pendles and Danger, yet has a much lower percentage of people saying he’s overrated. And a much higher percentage of people saying he’s underrated.

So based on this, in the public’s eyes (footy loving public, as they’re the ones reading the article and voting) …. based on thousands of votes and not BF hyperbole or bias …GAJ is #1 and Dusty #2 this century.

In the footy public’s opinion … the likes of Judd, Danger, Pendles, Goodes, Scarlett and Riewoldt are not even within a bull’s roar of Martin. 40% of people say he’s underrated at #3. 9% of people say Danger is underated at #5 and 21% say Pendles is underrated at #6.

And 52% say Scarlett is overrated at #9. Says a bit.


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No, this isn't how you deduce whether Dusty is in fact #2 of all modern players in the view of the public. They could see Buddy as overrated in terms of being above GAJ, but it doesn't mean they think Dusty is above Buddy. You have no idea when each person says overrated whether it means they think the player should go down 1 place or 50. I would still not be comfortable as using this poll as evidence for GAJ > Buddy, if I took your interpretation of it at face value that would be a slam dunk conclusion.

The best way to do it would be to get everyone to submit a list ranking the players 1-10 and then assigning a ranking score per vote, e.g 1 = 10 points, 2 = 9 etc.

We actually had something like this on BigFooty albeit with a different set of players (all midfielders) in a thread theasian made. From 6 players (GAJ, Judd, Voss, Dusty, Buckley, Hird) there was an unbelievably clear player in 1st place (do I really need to say who it was?), Judd had a good lead in #2 and I believe Dusty fell around 4th, in a group where not too much separated them (Dusty, Buckley, Hird).

Any poll of course has the large caveat of unknown proportions of different supporter bases voting. Not to mention non football reasons obviously affecting a few of those overrated votes. A couple of which are very obvious and since I want to stick to discussing football only, will leave it at that.

 

[ABS]

N Riewoldt
Scarlett
Goodes
Voss
Pendles
Danger
Judd
Martin
GAJ
Buddy

No Matthew Pavlich means this list is a joke.

It’s just 2 x journo’s

2 idiot journo's, makes me wonder about the thousands that voted.