Rumour Bluemour Discussion XXXVII

[myblueroan]

Links back to the point Soapy made about Wright’s view of the lack of cohesion in the coaching panel IMO.

So, the latest is, we keep Voss,
The inner sanctum at our club think most issues are either the players' fault, or poor development...and list management?
But we'll also keep Austin and...what, Brad Lloyd as well?

So the only good news is that something will be done about the quality of line coaches?

And why are a few so excited that we might lose one of our very best players in TDK? What's that about?

Confusing times right now.

 

[jj1978]

Definitely BOTH. There a some very frustrated players that have questioned the way we play

IMO this has caused an obvious change in style over last few weeks. Right or Wrong Voss is very much about contest and defence first

2023 players were questioning and now again. Either coaches are stubborn or not forward thinking enough. “we’ll play our way” tells me all I need to know.

 

[JustOneTime]

For the record. Voss being “relaxed” with the slow start has me thinking we may have adopted another tack on the fitness front. Both us and the Swans failed to run out the season.

Perhaps we have deliberately gone in “under done” causing the fade outs. This as opposed to having over worked pre season and early to have us “cooked”.

• Last year he 'learned' we ran out of gas
• Is this the year we storm home for 9th as he learns again?
• Couple of years ago he learned to start training the players to hold on in the last 5 minutes after we slipped out of the 8 after being in it for the whole season. Mcrae at same time said they always train it
• He has spent 4 years learning about turnover goals instead of stoppage goals

I'm starting to think Carlton are a 'head coach' training facility.

 

[Accidental genius]

And why are a few so excited that we might lose one of our very best players in TDK? What's that about?

Confusing times right now.

Salary cap is probably too tight and the list is not balanced so I assume it’s a two pronged attack…

Lose a player with potential $1M plus salary and in return bring in types of players needed and a ruck on less money.

 

[jj1978]

Not a rumour but fact! Our talent scouts and recruiting team are the worst in the comp
Why do the geelongs and Sydneys of the comp seem to find good players in the draft with later picks but ours can't find it if it smacked them in the face

I dare say because theyve been up the top for so long they do not get high picks (Sydney the luxury of academy) and if they do they tend to trade for top talent to come in. Because of this strategy I believe their scouts really focus on the less noted players. I think this is indicative of Geelong that when they’ve taken an early pick in the last decade or so they’ve gone the surprise player who was touted to come later because they focused heavily on these outlier players.

 

[jj1978]

For the record. Voss being “relaxed” with the slow start has me thinking we may have adopted another tack on the fitness front. Both us and the Swans failed to run out the season.

Perhaps we have deliberately gone in “under done” causing the fade outs. This as opposed to having over worked pre season and early to have us “cooked”.

Naturally, I am happy to hear no issues with List Management despite the pile on here.

TDK is becoming more and more intriguing. Definitely no Dutch Auction stuff. We have offered a fair price and are nor going to play games.

Not surprised H had suitors, unless he has an issue with a coach (which has been suggested with no confirmation), and that coach survives any restructure, I feel confident he is going nowhere.

MSD could be very critical.

Important aspect with this strategy is still need to get some wins early. Dropping Richmond game after that start was completely on the inability of the group to change mindset and momentum and regain control. Same with Bulldogs game.

So if going in with strategy of peaking physically later in the season, game plan, transition, mental application and basics need to become priority as these need to be in place to bank at least a 50/50 win ratio before mid season.

 

[NavySteel]

Was either Red Man or KingCharles mentioned in one of the threads we'd intentionally gone into the season a bit behind where we were last season to try and avoid mid season burnout.

Did say it hasn't looked like a great decision after our start to the year but wouldn't surprise me if we thought we'd be able to get by early with our softish start and then build as we go through the year.

I did read or hear somewhere by one of the boys that the preseason was one of the hardest they’ve done leading into the tigers game.

Maybe there’s some fitness still building. Go like a steamroller, not like spark and fade out.

Having said that, the structure and skills have sucked. There were glimpses of the gameplan clicking on Saturday.

I’d like it if we had an “inside” gear and “outside” gear. Inside when we need to go hard and go man on man; grind at the contest. The outside gear, which we saw on Saturday, ease off on the tackling and spread - we looked better with the skills when we didn’t look rushed.

Switch between the gears in-game, based on opponent style, game conditions, etc.

 

[NavySteel]

This is a

Great time of year for a bit of lunch out and about in Sydney!

Always bump into interesting people that usually have a bit to do with the Swannie's.

My comment, geez Big Harry would look good running around at the SCG, Paps would love him.
Response, Reidy would look good playing on the G and kicking goals for fun or putting them on a plate for Charlie. We're (Swans) expecting to lose someone to WC.

I did mention TDK and received a laugh about the Saints option, the comment, if he's stupid enough, then good luck at that mob...

Always the AFL in the background when big names are on the table, especially when the Swans are involved.

#Bluemour

 

[Wickzki]

Definitely BOTH. There a some very frustrated players that have questioned the way we play

After the Richmond game, I was told the instructions coming from the mids and forwards coaches were so poor that at least one player was completely lost out there. Genuinely had no idea where he was supposed to be, ended up in no man's land over and over. He was trying to follow the instructions as best he could, but they were that unclear. That’s a coaching issue, plain and simple.

As for Voss, things professionally have improved. Under Teague it was awful. In some ways I feel for Voss as he walked into a club with little standards and has improved them a lot and I don't feel we have supported him at all

What really frustrates me is that the club made promises to support him properly, and they just haven’t followed through.

From where I’m sitting, two things are obvious:

1. The playing group clearly plays for him. They put in the effort for him — you don’t get consistently high pressure ratings and a strong defensive setup without buy-in.
2. But the assistant coaching? It’s nowhere near good enough. We need multiple new coaches who actually know how to channel that effort properly. Right now we’re seeing a heap of energy being poured into the game, but so much of it is wasted. Poor offensive structures, poor decisions, and it ends up costing us — not just in results, but in how much it drains the players.

 

[jj1978]

So, the latest is, we keep Voss,
The inner sanctum at our club think most issues are either the players' fault, or poor development...and list management?
But we'll also keep Austin and...what, Brad Lloyd as well?

So the only good news is that something will be done about the quality of line coaches?

And why are a few so excited that we might lose one of our very best players in TDK? What's that about?

Confusing times right now.

He’s a restricted free agent so if he chooses to leave the ball is in our court to match. If say Saints were offering 1 mill a year but his heart was still with us he’d probably accept 800k and sign. This is why 1.7 million is touted because he’d probably accept 1.25 to stay with us but he’s not worth 1.25 by any stretch. That’s 3 very decent players or two high calibre players. TDK so far is yet to last a full season and even during games he needs quite a few chop outs due to his style.

Geelong won a premiership with Stanley and Blicavs (Mr fix it but not a pure ruck) playing that role. If we lost TDK I’d just challenge Young to take his chances in the role. Pitto is serviceable we’ve seen as well and picking a cheap ruck from the VFL etc could work.

 

[CCurnow3votes]

After the Richmond game, I was told the instructions coming from the mids and forwards coaches were so poor that at least one player was completely lost out there. Genuinely had no idea where he was supposed to be, ended up in no man's land over and over. He was trying to follow the instructions as best he could, but they were that unclear. That’s a coaching issue, plain and simple.



What really frustrates me is that the club made promises to support him properly, and they just haven’t followed through.

From where I’m sitting, two things are obvious:

1. The playing group clearly plays for him. They put in the effort for him — you don’t get consistently high pressure ratings and a strong defensive setup without buy-in.
2. But the assistant coaching? It’s nowhere near good enough. We need multiple new coaches who actually know how to channel that effort properly. Right now we’re seeing a heap of energy being poured into the game, but so much of it is wasted. Poor offensive structures, poor decisions, and it ends up costing us — not just in results, but in how much it drains the players.

Just bring Gra-Gra in now!

 

[Soapy V]

What really frustrates me is that the club made promises to support him properly, and they just haven’t followed through.

From where I’m sitting, two things are obvious:

1. The playing group clearly plays for him. They put in the effort for him — you don’t get consistently high pressure ratings and a strong defensive setup without buy-in.
2. But the assistant coaching? It’s nowhere near good enough. We need multiple new coaches who actually know how to channel that effort properly. Right now we’re seeing a heap of energy being poured into the game, but so much of it is wasted. Poor offensive structures, poor decisions, and it ends up costing us — not just in results, but in how much it drains the players.

Hi Wickzi. Hope you're well mate!!!

I am not sure about this. I have seen people do well "despite" the coach or leader. My take is we have a group of leaders like Cripps Hewett Weitering Walsh Saad etc that will perform and do well regardless of what is happening.

I don't think they are NOT playing for him but IMO I feel they aren't fully on board with his direction either. JMO

 

[NavySteel]

Definitely BOTH. There a some very frustrated players that have questioned the way we play

IMO this has caused an obvious change in style over last few weeks. Right or Wrong Voss is very much about contest and defence first

Stats suggest our contest work and supply (numbers) is top 3… kind of like 2023.

When we went on the bull run, we definitely played more of balanced style than we are now (or at least prior to the WC game). Not enough for Vissy to say the game plan is working because we’ve been up at half time every game. Definitely understand player frustrations (and supporters!).

I hope Vossy will take the good from Saturday and take the blinkers off.

 

[jj1978]

Hi Wickzi. Hope you're well mate!!!

I am not sure about this. I have seen people do well "despite" the coach or leader. My take is we have a group of leaders like Cripps Hewett Weitering Walsh Saad etc that will perform and do well regardless of what is happening.

I don't think they are NOT playing for him but IMO I feel they aren't fully on board with his direction either. JMO

Also think our core have had no success and some know no better due to previous coaches and our recent history of inconsistency. I’d be really interested to hear say a Hewitt or Acres perspective on Voss after both having played for some highly touted coaches in the past. Even Haynes giving us tidbits on Kingsley in comparison.

Also players do talk. Dow is probably telling a few about Ross. Kennedy would be asked about the Dogs. Cripps is close mates with Mitchell and Neale and I’m sure he’d ask about McRae and Fagan.

Pies laughing at us is a big tell how perhaps Voss is rated in the industry. His mate McRae must not rate his old mates coaching capability by pretty much allowing his mob to show such disrespect towards our gameplan.

 

[CarmenSandiego]

After the Richmond game, I was told the instructions coming from the mids and forwards coaches were so poor that at least one player was completely lost out there. Genuinely had no idea where he was supposed to be, ended up in no man's land over and over. He was trying to follow the instructions as best he could, but they were that unclear. That’s a coaching issue, plain and simple.

Coaches are so ****ing annoying. Too many of them trying to justify their existence.

You know Collingwood went from 17th to top 4, then flag, all based around McRaes game plan of 'play on at all costs'? Not some earth-shattering, mad scientist bullshit.

Richmonds 3-peat was basically the same - just win the contest & get the bloody ball forward, even if it means slapping or punching it.

Our streak in 2023 only happened when we ditched our game plan and played on instinct.

Footy really isn't that bloody complex - be first to the footy, give first option, get it forward and tag the oppositions best player. Modern day coaches just complicate the absolute shit out of it.

 

[Arr0w]

Just bring Gra-Gra in now!

Would already be all over every area, especially recruitment and list management

Also interesting in C4's info that Voss is safe and all assistants in the gun, but would be unusual if any left in season right?

 

[CCurnow3votes]

Would already be all over every area, especially recruitment and list management

Also interesting in C4's info that Voss is safe and all assistants in the gun, but would be unusual if any left in season right?

You’d think it would be pretty disruptive.

Maybe they could hire a BF consultant!

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

Easier said than done.

Perception is reality, and unfortunately a workplace - but especially a footy club, has plenty of heads whom all have their own perception on things.

I'm honestly of the belief that footy clubs get success by accident - honestly, it clicked for me after Richmond in 2016. The club admitted the rebuild had failed. They fully said 'we only built this list to make the 8, not win the flag'. Then they won 3 in a row!

There were 2 reasons why Richmond went from rubbish to premiers in the space of a year.....and it wasn't an accident. Both appointed at the end of 2016.



Get your assistant coaches lined up and your half a chance....even McRae has come out and said they wouldn't have won the premiership without Leppitsch developing the strategies and gameplan.....which is why it's a not negotiable that we have to have a long hard look at our current coaching panel.

 

[Arr0w]

There were 2 reasons why Richmond went from rubbish to premiers in the space of a year.....and it wasn't an accident. Both appointed at the end of 2016.

View attachment 2285221View attachment 2285224

Get your assistant coaches lined up and your half a chance....even McRae has come out and said they wouldn't have won the premiership without Leppitsch developing the strategies and gameplan.....which is why it's a not negotiable that we have to have a long hard look at our current coaching panel.

I'd love to get Skipworth

 

[CarmenSandiego]

There were 2 reasons why Richmond went from rubbish to premiers in the space of a year.....and it wasn't an accident. Both appointed at the end of 2016.

View attachment 2285221View attachment 2285224

Get your assistant coaches lined up and your half a chance....even McRae has come out and said they wouldn't have won the premiership without Leppitsch developing the strategies and gameplan.....which is why it's a not negotiable that we have to have a long hard look at our current coaching panel.

No single reason is the reason - or even 2 reasons.

2 assistant coaches can't make 23 players go from 13th in the league to a 10+ goal win in the grand final in one off-season.

I'm adamant it's all by accident - make changes and hope for the best sprinkled with some luck, then when it happens they all say 'yeah we planned for this, knew it would happen' - I call bullshit!!

 

[Accidental genius]

Coaches are so ****ing annoying. Too many of them trying to justify their existence.

You know Collingwood went from 17th to top 4, then flag, all based around McRaes game plan of 'play on at all costs'? Not some earth-shattering, mad scientist bullshit.

Richmonds 3-peat was basically the same - just win the contest & get the bloody ball forward, even if it means slapping or punching it.

Our streak in 2023 only happened when we ditched our game plan and played on instinct.

Footy really isn't that bloody complex - be first to the footy, give first option, get it forward and tag the oppositions best player. Modern day coaches just complicate the absolute shit out of it.

This chap gets it !

 

[BlueTongue]

Couple of tidbits:

1. Voss is safe - but all of his assistants are in the gun.

2. Harry being aggressively pursued by Sydney.

3. The club is no wiser re: TDK, never held any indication he was going to sign by a certain date.

4. Despite re-signing, Toby Conway on the table still from Geelong - and being offered to clubs (including us)

5. Jade Gresham wants out of Essendon, wants more midfield time - only mentioning due to his brothers NGA connection with us.

#Bluemour

Big H & TDK are 2 of my Fav players at the club.
But if I have to keep one and trade the other to free up salary Cap, TDK has to be the one to stay IMO.
And that also means I would def NOT be interested in Conway or any other 'Traditional' ruckman. TDK is the future of ruck, even if he ends up at another club.

Comment to me after the Pies game.

Voss will be safe while Cook is in charge. If things don't improve he won't be safe once Wright takes over

Whatever happens there will be big changes to coaching structure at years end

Not sure sacking Voss this early would be a good thing anyway, but I feel it would be good if we could get rid of a couple of Assistants and a certain GM of Footy right now with Wright as 'Caretaker' until the new appointment is made, though I'm not sure how much that would impact on his 'CEO training' with Cook.

Following on recent rumours. I have hassled a few people that normally know for any info

1. Voss safe at moment. No movement to remove him at all
2. Many internal believe TDK will stay even though lot of outside noise he will go. Carlton won't lift offer
3. Definite changes coming with coaching group. Not cohesive and Wright believes it's lacking in several areas
4. No issues or complaints around LM. Feel is Austin has put us in a good spot especially SC wise
5. I can't get anyone that can confirm H to Swans rumour (doesn't mean it's not happening)
6. Looking at possibly 2 additions in MSD
7. Spoken with many people re: Football Boss
8. Elijah has really dealt with "issue" in last 6 weeks. Impressive change in attitude and focus although it's an ongoing battle
9. Mentioned that some believe change in fitness focus could well mean much improved second half of year

No matter how much I think Voss is a great leader, and even if we replace assistants (which should have been identified and done late last year), I'm not sure how that bodes for him anyway. Even if his role is 'GM' coach, and he is 'overseeing' the other coaches gameday strategies, I don't think he is the type of bloke that can sit back and let another Coach make changes he doesn't agree with. I suspect his competitive instinct would not allow it.

Final comment. I spoke late last night with someone very involved at club. Knows there stuff and never says much

I vented my frustration re: Gameplan, structure etc

His comment was, understandable, and many would support my comments BUT there is also people internally that are frustrated with depth, skill level, development and blame that as much if not more

For all the discussion about coaching, development, LM etc on here it seems even internally no one agrees 100% on what the issues are

Also said players like and respect Voss a lot. Questions are more around can he (and his assistants) match it with other coaches for game plan and match day changes

It's not black and white

And that is so evident and reflected with those very discussions on the board. Cook has definitely stabilized the club but now it appears we are stuck with something we cannot fix. SOMETHING has to give, why not start with the obvious ones, letting Lloyd & said Assistants go now?

 

[BlueTongue]

It's a copy cat world. Brisbane just did that last season. It's plausible.

Nothing in this universe can make skills look worse than fatigue.

My Issue is that if we lack skills, then of course we are getting more fatigued because we are running twice the distance as the OP chasing turnovers, or trying to win the ball back.

Precision football makes any team look fitter and faster, regardless of how much leg speed or what their fitness levels are.

 

[ESKIE]

After the Richmond game, I was told the instructions coming from the mids and forwards coaches were so poor that at least one player was completely lost out there. Genuinely had no idea where he was supposed to be, ended up in no man's land over and over. He was trying to follow the instructions as best he could, but they were that unclear. That’s a coaching issue, plain and simple.



What really frustrates me is that the club made promises to support him properly, and they just haven’t followed through.

From where I’m sitting, two things are obvious:

1. The playing group clearly plays for him. They put in the effort for him — you don’t get consistently high pressure ratings and a strong defensive setup without buy-in.
2. But the assistant coaching? It’s nowhere near good enough. We need multiple new coaches who actually know how to channel that effort properly. Right now we’re seeing a heap of energy being poured into the game, but so much of it is wasted. Poor offensive structures, poor decisions, and it ends up costing us — not just in results, but in how much it drains the players.

Spot on Wick thanks

 

[Bletch]

You’d think it would be pretty disruptive.

Maybe they could hire a BF consultant!

Should do a poll... 3 assistant roles open, must be filled by Carlton BF board posters. Pick your 3