Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Mobbs]

Tired of such mindnumbingly stupid posts.

Poor baby.

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[IlovethePies]

You're pure lies affirm authoritarian.

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Brilliant. Where do you get your incredible me

Reason people think that is the very fact that the Russian socialist revolution you speak is what gave us Stalin, and you have not said how you're going to prevent that happening again.



Yes, exactly this ^

It's why I wish he'd answer this post from the Trump/Harris thread, which he has ignored for a few days now. I expected at least one link to WSWS in response...not a link that actually answered or successfully addressed it, but a link none-the-less.

ok, sad you won't sign up. No need to reply to my posts with your rants anymore then.

 

[Jamolad]

Wow. Just wow.

Seriously, if you are not going to answer the above, expect everyone to throw those questions at you each and every time you bring up your socialist revolution and how great it is going to be afterwards.

Why won't you answer? Yeah, I've taken low shots at you before, but those are serious questions that you would want to be able to answer if you are going to push your beliefs.

How will you prevent your Utopia descending into a murderous authoritarian socialist dictatorship?

 

[Zidane98]

The general strategic interests of capitalist ruling elties are not determined by instantaneous snapshots of the stockmarket in general.

Otherwise, at the time of the Great Depression in 1929, the likes of you Zidane would have had to argue, in the midst of stockmarket collapse, for the overthrow capitalism, because stock market values were in freefall

Let me give you another standpoint. Right now, Wall St is surging...so maybe the war in Ukraine is favouring the rich after all

Western businesses invested in Russia and Russian oligarchs have consistently suffered huge losses due the invasion.

Russia's economy haa taken a battering as has Ukraine's thanks to Putin's unjustified imperialistic invasion.

Incredible all you can offer is wall street surging as evidence to support your theory with no actual evidence linking that to the war.

 

[Nothing]

...

Just to let you know, I dont respond to those who have NFI.

so last time I respond to you, until you prove that you have changed your status.

This is a clear win. You'll think for you, everyone else will think for me.

By the way, I'm all for the socialist revolution, as long as I'm the one who ends up on 2 legs.

 

[Seeds]

@ Zidane

No, you have just nailed it.

Of course they cannot by themselves support socialism without clarification, because a gigantic historical fraud has been perprated, by both US propaganda and by Stalinist propaganda.



And that lie is : Stalinism = socialism.

That is why so many people mistakenly think that socialism implies an authoritarian dicatatorshp.

That is why it is so crucial for the working class, and all those who support the working class, should read the wsws and the writings of Leon Trotsky. Trotsky devoted his life to opposing Stalinism.

In the end, the Stalinists succeeded in murdering him.

But the Stalinists were unable to stop him from founding the Fourth iNterantional in 1938, which maintained the continuity of the fight for genuine socialism, ie world socialist revolution, against the murderous Stalinist dictatorships in the Soviet Union and in Eastern Europe.

It is not human nature (whatever that means) which stops the fight for socialist revolution. It is the political lies of imperialism, Stalinism and other fake socialists which block progress towards a higher level, and profoundly humane society.

What is required is the expansion of the influence of a Trotskyist revolutionary party which can explain these lessons of history.

Socialism either fails or leads to dictatorship because the people reject the loss of freedom (and fairness) that socialism demands. Stalinism is the inevitable outcome of socialism. Thats the outcome that has occured everywhere. Its not a one off. Its not bad luck.

 

[modul8]

This is a clear win. You'll think for you, everyone else will think for me.

By the way, I'm all for the socialist revolution, as long as I'm the one who ends up on 2 legs.

Can i be part of the ruling committee? I don't want to have to do the harder jobs for the same as the bludgers

 

[IlovethePies]

Wow. Just wow.

Seriously, if you are not going to answer the above, expect everyone to throw those questions at you each and every time you bring up your socialist revolution and how great it is going to be afterwards.

Why won't you answer? Yeah, I've taken low shots at you before, but those are serious questions that you would want to be able to answer if you are going to push your beliefs.

Sorry mybad, i did not see your major question there.
That question, how do you prevent Stalinism from happening again? (I apologise, i did not notice this question)

I agree, it is one of the most fundamental and important questions.

The reason why the Stalinist dictatorship was able to overpower the socialist internationalists within the Soviet Union, and usurp political power, was because the world socialist revolution did not extend beyond the borders of the Soviet Union.

The Soviet Union was a far less developed economy than the imperialist economies of Western Europe and the US. The Bolsheviks never envisioned that socialism could be created within the borders of a single state.

The Bolsheviks'' perspective was not utopian, in 1923 socialist revolution should have occurred in Germany, but due to the lack of a revolutionary party of the same calibre as the Bolsheviks, it failed.

The Stalinists were able to embed their rule in the false basis that socialism could be created within one country. This was a lie, but they used it to pretend that they were fighting for the interests of all,while ensuring that they took the cream off the wealth produced from the nationalised property, and ensured that the working class had no democratic control over production.

How do we prevent Stalinism from arising again?
a) there is in existence already a world party of socialist revolution, called the ICFI (its website is teh wsws). It has sections throughout the world. This time, the revolution will not be confined to Russia, it will be world wide.

b) With the massive development of the productive forces and technology that has occurred under capitalism, the capacity for mankind to produce enough to satisfy the social needs of the world's population is not in dispute. Bureaucracy and dictatorshp only develop when there is not enough to go around.
Under the conditions that exist today, if production were organised for social need and not profit, every person's social needs would be guaranteed.

Who wants to fight for a dictatorship when everyone has their social needs fulfilled?

c) The working class needs to develop a revolutionary party, a conscious political leadership, based on the most expansive democracy in human history. With a politically conscious layer of millons of workers, andy would be "dictator" would be called to account before he could get very far.

The fundamental requirement is that there is a vast layer of the working class educated in the lessons of Stalinism, and who are acutely conscious of how to defend a socialist perspective.

This won't happen spontaneously, but requires that the wsws grows in its influence and that socialists take up a struggle to fight for its program.

 

[Nothing]

Can i be part of the ruling committee? I don't want to have to do the harder jobs for the same as the bludgers

Yes, just send money to buy this NFT, that money will go to assist the underprivileged (me).

 

[IlovethePies]

Socialism either fails or leads to dictatorship because the people reject the loss of freedom (and fairness) that socialism demands. Stalinism is the inevitable outcome of socialism. Thats the outcome that has occured everywhere. Its not a one off. Its not bad luck.

Wrong, Stalinism is most defintely NOT the inevitable outcome of socialism.

Read this, if you dare:

Was There an Alternative to Stalinism?

The collapse of the Soviet Union has been followed by an outpouring of pseudohistorical literature intent on demonstrating that the October Revolution and the Soviet Union were the outcome of a criminal conspiracy that imposed an alien and unworkable dogma upon an unwary population.

www.wsws.org

 

[RonSon]

It just needs a vast change in political consciousness.

Hope this makes it clear.

Are you doing anything other than talking about this vast change here?

Is there a movement you are championing I can join?

 

[IlovethePies]

Are you doing anything other than talking about this vast change here?

Is there a movement you are championing I can join?

There is...but not sure you genuinely are interested.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

What is the working class?

I work.... am I working class?

 

[Nothing]

Are you doing anything other than talking about this vast change here?

Is there a movement you are championing I can join?

I have one. Just send money for this NFT and you'll be part of the socialist revolution. All sorts have joined, even modul8 has agreed. We're going to rule this revolution.

 

[Jamolad]

Sorry mybad, i did not see your major question there.
That question, how do you prevent Stalinism from happening again? (I apologise, i did not notice this question)

I agree, it is one of the most fundamental and important questions.

The reason why the Stalinist dictatorship was able to overpower the socialist internationalists within the Soviet Union, and usurp political power, was because the world socialist revolution did not extend beyond the borders of the Soviet Union.

The Soviet Union was a far less developed economy than the imperialist economies of Western Europe and the US. The Bolsheviks never envisioned that socialism could be created within the borders of a single state.

The Bolsheviks'' perspective was not utopian, in 1923 socialist revolution should have occurred in Germany, but due to the lack of a revolutionary party of the same calibre as the Bolsheviks, it failed.

The Stalinists were able to embed their rule in the false basis that socialism could be created within one country. This was a lie, but they used it to pretend that they were fighting for the interests of all,while ensuring that they took the cream off the wealth produced from the nationalised property, and ensured that the working class had no democratic control over production.

How do we prevent Stalinism from arising again?
a) there is in existence already a world party of socialist revolution, called the ICFI (its website is teh wsws). It has sections throughout the world. This time, the revolution will not be confined to Russia, it will be world wide.

b) With the massive development of the productive forces and technology that has occurred under capitalism, the capacity for mankind to produce enough to satisfy the social needs of the world's population is not in dispute. Bureaucracy and dictatorshp only develop when there is not enough to go around.
Under the conditions that exist today, if production were organised for social need and not profit, every person's social needs would be guaranteed.

Who wants to fight for a dictatorship when everyone has their social needs fulfilled?

c) The working class needs to develop a revolutionary party, a conscious political leadership, based on the most expansive democracy in human history. With a politically conscious layer of millons of workers, andy would be "dictator" would be called to account before he could get very far.

The fundamental requirement is that there is a vast layer of the working class educated in the lessons of Stalinism, and who are acutely conscious of how to defend a socialist perspective.

This won't happen spontaneously, but requires that the wsws grows in its influence and that socialists take up a struggle to fight for its program.

Again, I am telling you that human nature is there were be plenty that will not like socialism, not want socialism, even when everyone's social needs are guaranteed.

Most people will always want more than the 'average', more than enough. To answer your question, these are the people that will fight for the dictatorship even though their social needs are fulfilled because the dictatorship will give them slightly more than 'average', more than enough, for their loyalty.

What will you do with them? Get rid of them?

And by the way, the dictatorship will spring from your beloved and now ruling ICFI. They are the ones that will form the dictatorship, and they will justify that pivot as a "necessity" to prevent being ousted by counter-revolution. Crack down on dissidents, or get rid of them, and re-educate the masses.

I don't see how going global will be any different to all the times socialist revolution has turned into bloody dictatorial shit-shows the world over. Sure, I get your theory that there will be abundant resources for all if there is global socialism, but you're still up against human nature being majority want more than they need.

Guess in addition to your purge, you also need to re-educate the masses people. Hmmm, this is all sounding very familiar again...

 

[RonSon]

There is...but not sure you genuinely are interested.

If you are genuinely doing something other than talk here I am definitely interested in having a look. I have been a union member for well over 20 years, even used to be greeted with "welcome comrade" when I went to union meetings back in the day.

 

[modul8]

Again, I am telling you that human nature is there were be plenty that will not like socialism, not want socialism, even when everyone's social needs are guaranteed.

Most people will always want more than the 'average', more than enough. To answer your question, these are the people that will fight for the dictatorship even though their social needs are fulfilled because the dictatorship will give them slightly more than 'average', more than enough, for their loyalty.

What will you do with them? Get rid of them?

And by the way, the dictatorship will spring from your beloved and now ruling ICFI. They are the ones that will form the dictatorship, and they will justify that pivot as a "necessity" to prevent being ousted by counter-revolution. Crack down on dissidents, or get rid of them, and re-educate the masses.

I don't see how going global will be any different to all the times socialist revolution has turned into bloody dictatorial shit-shows the world over. Sure, I get your theory that there will be abundant resources for all if there is global socialism, but you're still up against human nature being majority want more than they need.

Guess in addition to your purge, you also need to re-educate the masses people. Hmmm, this is all sounding very familiar again...

Theories are like plans. Great until you get punched in the face

 

[Visions]

That's fine, just keep parroting the lies of European and US politicians.

I will keep striving to alert as many as possible to the huge dangers that confront humanity at the moment.

You keep up the championing of living in fear.



Meanwhile l will keep on living life.

 

[wannabejack]

Seems like there’s a lot of talk on socialism and less on the war in Ukraine.

 

[Mobbs]

If you are genuinely doing something other than talk here I am definitely interested in having a look. I have been a union member for well over 20 years, even used to be greeted with "welcome comrade" when I went to union meetings back in the day.

Unfortunately he's not in a movement. He's in a cult. It's sad.

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[SaintsSeptember]

The more time goes by the more Marx doesn't reflect the current scenario.

Multinationalism for example.

Most manufacturing sites won't work in isolation.
If the workers took over the Tesla manufacturing site in China commandeered the plant, it would probably fail to keep operating.
If the workers overran Tesla HQ , the whole global structure would fall apart. They don't get their materials from a dozen workshops near the factory, they have a global supply chain. They have a global sales structure.
Maybe they could refurbish the factory to make one handed gloves. ( which were mythical ).

The revolution either has to be simultaneous around the globe, or it will be scotched earth.

Its a lie that the workers would be better off if all the work places ceased to function.

 

[barreness]

Socialism either fails or leads to dictatorship because the people reject the loss of freedom (and fairness) that socialism demands. Stalinism is the inevitable outcome of socialism. Thats the outcome that has occured everywhere. Its not a one off. Its not bad luck.

Have you ever had the freedom to vote for your boss seeds?

That's the outcome of a market economy. Its not a one off, Its not bad luck. You live under a dictatorship of capital

 

[barreness]

What is the working class?

I work.... am I working class?

Yes.

Capitalists engage the infinite money glitch and don't have to work

 

[barreness]

The more time goes by the more Marx doesn't reflect the current scenario.

Multinationalism for example.

Most manufacturing sites won't work in isolation.
If the workers took over the Tesla manufacturing site in China commandeered the plant, it would probably fail to keep operating.
If the workers overran Tesla HQ , the whole global structure would fall apart. They don't get their materials from a dozen workshops near the factory, they have a global supply chain. They have a global sales structure.
Maybe they could refurbish the factory to make one handed gloves. ( which were mythical ).

Yep, had a lot of prescient predictions but capitalism has proved very resilient, biosphere collapse will surely get it though

The revolution either has to be simultaneous around the globe, or it will be scotched earth.

US foreign policy for the last 70 years right here

Its a lie that the workers would be better off if all the work places ceased to function.

I'm not sure this is Marxism, perhaps enviromentalist thought from the tree tory branch

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Socialism either fails or leads to dictatorship because the people reject the loss of freedom (and fairness) that socialism demands.

Yep, good in theory but unfortunately just won't work with humans.

Never has, never will.