6 of those 16 were either drafted to or acquired by Carlton via trade. Hence there are the variables kf clubs overvaluing particular players in a draft or simply being $hit in developing young players.
Are key defenders the least important players on a list?
- Thread starter qwertyboy
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6 of those 16 were either drafted to or acquired by Carlton via trade. Hence there are the variables kf clubs overvaluing particular players in a draft or simply being $hit in developing young players.
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Still a legitimate high draft selection, “failed forwards” or not. Weitering was pick 1. Darcy Moore was pick 9. Lever was pick 14. May was a priority zone pick. Sure there are also the Allirs and Stewarts that are diamonds in the rough but it’s perfectly fine to invest in a key/intercept defender. They’re an important cog.
My argument isn't that draft position is not indicative at all. The best players are almost all exclusively drafted at the pointy end of the draft.
Taylor Walker (pick 75)
Jack Darling (26)
Oscar Allen (21)
Mitch Lewis (76)
All of these key forwards are as good as you would ever hope to draft in the top ten. There are roughly the same number of exceptions in defenders. There are more exceptions in the ruck, as the added height and weight makes development even longer, and talent harder to spot.
Walker was a NSW scholarship player for Adelaide.
And let's not act the others have performed at the level of the best key forwards from over the last 20 years.
I've been saying for a while that a good key defender is more important than a key forward. Is there a top team without a quality intercepting tall defender? Get one that can defend, intercept and attack and you have an incredibly valuable player.
That list of drafted players btw, Scharenberg was never seen as a key defender. Didn't check the others too closely.
If you're point is it's difficult to pick them in the draft. That's true. Same with rucks and key forwards. They take time to develop, so requires greater foresight than for mids.
They're definitely important though. Get a good one and they can be your most important player, eg. Darcy Moore.
That list of drafted players btw, Scharenberg was never seen as a key defender. Didn't check the others too closely.
If you're point is it's difficult to pick them in the draft. That's true. Same with rucks and key forwards. They take time to develop, so requires greater foresight than for mids.
They're definitely important though. Get a good one and they can be your most important player, eg. Darcy Moore.
I didn't say the best key forwards are taken later in the draft. The best defenders are also generally taken in the first round.
This whole thread is complete rubbish.
When you look at premiership winning teams, they have one quality key defender in the side.
De Koning, May, Grimes, McGovern, Rance, Lake, Grundy.
Go back through history and most premiers have one of them.
Collingwood are in the box seat the level of footy Darcy Moore is playing at this moment in time.
De Koning, May, Grimes, McGovern, Rance, Lake, Grundy.
Go back through history and most premiers have one of them.
Collingwood are in the box seat the level of footy Darcy Moore is playing at this moment in time.
Half forward flankers are the least important role I would say. I can't think of a single premiership team built around a star or structurally important one. James Hird at times played that position but even he swapped into midfield and did damage there. Half back flankers often work as quarterbacks to set up play a la Hodge/Daicos.
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Agree with this.
Pies went 6-1 this year without a notable ruckman even playing across those 7 weeks. Try doing that without a KPD.
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As I said, I think the best ones are good because of what they do around the ground, they are like an extra utility, or a midfielder who can take a grab, or a defender who takes intercept marks.
But the advantage you actually get from a good tap ruckman is bugger all. Stoppages are the most crowded, congested moments of a game, it doesn't matter which ruckman gets his hand to it, it's going down to the same highly congested contest.
I think what this says more than anything is it's basically a fools errand trying to extrapolate who's a good defender in junior footy to who's a good defender in the AFL.
I agree in general that it’s not important to have a star ruckman but the Pies were not dominating games like they have been since and before Cameron and Cox were out injured. They were just getting it done and those two make a massive difference structurally.
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Bunk Moreland nailed it in that even the better rap ruckmen in the comp are still feeding it to two midfields that contest and create scrimmages.
Take a look at Pittonet, who is notoriously one of the highest in hitouts to advantage, yet the biggest bed bugs for Carlton supporters is his lack of diversity outside the actual ruck contest.
Even on the weekend, you have a star like Goldstein who had a belter against Cameron and Cox, where North even had the better of the Pies in tight, and won the clearances, but were never in the contest. They kicked about 3 late in the game directly from stoppages but the Pies had switched off after getting the margin out to 9 goals. Goldy’s biggest asset is his aerobic capacity to get to either side of the ground and take big marks.
To your point pz5151 , Cameron and Cox are important structurally because of what they offer in that down the line kicks, as well as being the exit kicks late in games when trying to hold a tight lead. It’s not so much what they offer as ruckmen, and more so what they offer as bigs.
Heck, even Clark Keating is a premiership player (no disrespect) and more recently, you had Lycett and Hickey win a flag for WCE in NicNat’s absence. That very same GF, if we had Moore fit, or Dunn fit, it would’ve made a huge difference for Collingwood against Kennedy and Darling.
Yep, 100% with you on this. And I think this realisation is also why Wright and the Pies were keen to move Grundy on. While he is definitely a more skilled player than Cameron, the team is a better outfit with Cameron/Cox combo than it is with Grundy winning 70 hitouts to his feet losing us a prelim but with no marking ability.
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Ruck is the only position you can set your team up around losing the contest at and still dominate the game. Who was the last Premiership team with a dominant ruckman as opposed to merely serviceable to above average?
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I’m sure there've been others since, but Dean Cox is the only one that comes to mind. He did have a dominant midfield too though.
I feel you are conflating two issues here.
The above is some data that suggests that wasting an early draft pick on a key defender may not be wise. Based on the above small sample set, that seems about right - but would need further analysis.
But your overall thread is about whether having good key defenders is important or not. The above does not prove that at all.
And as soon as you have a poor one, everything falls apart.
