Recruiting AFL Trade & Free Agency XII - 💰💰💰

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[ant555]

Come on man have you watched him play lately? He clearly has more than one strength to his game. It’s ok to admit we ****ed up either by failing to develop him and/or trading him.

Have watched all year including a number of live games . I would say I have watched him more than anyone over the journey.
Have never said he is not a good player but he is an outside accumulator with elite kicking. He is not a big contested ball winner. Size to size he is an average mark. He is not a super endurance runner and he is average pace.
There is no doubt we fumbled the process last year but people are also carrying on like he would have given us 4 or 5 more wins.
Things I have said
He is a good player.
I would rather him than Cox on a wing.
Yes he kicking would be handy.
I do not care that I am in the minority for wanted ng to build a list with guys that have 2 or 3 traits we need.
He is short term collateral damage.
Yes there are others that should have gone first but n the big picture he fits their system. Our system is ****ed and he solves only one of the major issues.
Duursma was actually just as good on a wing. Martin can be as good on a wing if we get a couple of decent half backs.
I am not going to bow down to popular opinion. I have never said he is shit. My view is we need to focus on getting players to compete ver a few areas. There are players where we have made mistakes on that Mass would be better but that doesn’t change my view. More Roberts types who attack the footy hard and have good skills. More Duursma types who have the endurance to cover in defence and push forward and kick goals.
Mass is a good player. He is now at a club with the personal and system that he can shine playing what is his one wood and that is outside distributor with elite kicking.

 

[ant555]

This isnt to dwell on Mass as an individual but moreso what the decision demonstrates.

Its not that we need him now, its that we didnt need Heppell, Kelly, Parish and Shiel and whoever decided to keep them/extend them over him have a horrible grasp on football. I know there is this theory Scott cares about defense first, but not only can these guys not use the pill half as well as Mass, they cant defend noticably better either.

In the last 25 years there has been maybe 2 teams that have won flags with low skill, defence first types. Its a terrible system to pursue in the first place.

Lets pray Dodoro was pulling the strings still because the scenario reflects poorly on Scotts vision for the future.

Mistakes are mistakes.
I do not change my philosophy or n Mass based on other **** ups.
The process was a stuff up but the fact others where kept and he was let go doesn’t change my view that we need players with elite skills that are also better at defensive transition or have elite speed or elite endurance.
My view is they all have to be replaced over a certain period.

 

[dank420_]

I do not care that I am in the minority for wanted ng to build a list with guys that have 2 or 3 traits we need.
He is short term collateral damage.
Yes there are others that should have gone first but n the big picture he fits their system. Our system is ****ed and he solves only one of the major issues.

You really think we can be that picky? One of our major downfalls this season was execution,. We needed good kickers 5 years ago and meanwhile you're even defending Scott in his thread because we don't have the cattle. The argument that he only works well in a particular system is weird.

 

[FootyGuru]

Massimo is 178 centremetres. That is tiny, you really need to build the team and game around someone that small. especially defensively, much prefer duursma than Massimo on the wing. If Essendon had the same season as hawks and duursma didn’t get injuries he would have been in all Aus contention on the wing. Compare the stats.

I have always liked mass I actually think his best chance of making it for us was as a forward. Much better than menzie, and both daveys. Even showed the capability to hit the scoreboard. Down back he needs to be better than McGrath defensively because you simply can’t play two short people back there. Maybe Massimo predicted that he would be used forward, and the contract was only going to be a season. the hawks said we are gonna give ya a longer contract and have you play wing and utilise your elite kicking. I know as a player I’d be choosing the hawks.

 

[boncer34]

Massimo is 178 centremetres. That is tiny, you really need to build the team and game around someone that small. especially defensively, much prefer duursma than Massimo on the wing. If Essendon had the same season as hawks and duursma didn’t get injuries he would have been in all Aus contention on the wing. Compare the stats.

I have always liked mass I actually think his best chance of making it for us was as a forward. Much better than menzie, and both daveys. Even showed the capability to hit the scoreboard. Down back he needs to be better than McGrath defensively because you simply can’t play two short people back there. Maybe Massimo predicted that he would be used forward, and the contract was only going to be a season. the hawks said we are gonna give ya a longer contract and have you play wing and utilise your elite kicking. I know as a player I’d be choosing the hawks.

It was kinda predictable he would though. He's never played a full season.

 

[Snake Charmer]

Come on man have you watched him play lately? He clearly has more than one strength to his game. It’s ok to admit we ****ed up either by failing to develop him and/or trading him.

Ants happy to die on that hill..

 

[Snake Charmer]

I keep reading this sorta stuff with Mass’s name attached to it. His lack of defence blah blah. We have Redman who hasn’t manned up all season and mids like Parish and Shiel running around.

I just can’t wrap my head around why he is targeted so much for this deficiency.. like he was going to be the lynchpin of our defensive structure. He deserved a 2 year deal with at least this season on working on that at vfl level.


This is my post from the mass past players thread.. man I’d love us to give as much shit to players like Redman and Martin who haven’t been within arms length of an oppo forward all season. But I guess it’s easier to back the club in moving on Mass because he’s small and doesn’t defend. Spare me. We ****ed up simple as that. Anyone defending it is flat out wrong. You don’t build your side around a single wing or half back.

 

[FootyGuru]

It was kinda predictable he would though. He's never played a full season.

Yep hope duursma can get his body right. Love his play style. Perfect two way winger

 

[Schnitzengruben]

The year is 2031.

Massimo has just made his 5th All Australian.

3rd Premiership at Hawthorn.

He's doing cashies at Box Hill explaining how this whole saga happened.

We're still sitting on Bigfooty, talking about how we don't need him.

Threads are still being locked.

It's the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[ghostdog]

I keep reading this sorta stuff with Mass’s name attached to it. His lack of defence blah blah. We have Redman who hasn’t manned up all season and mids like Parish and Shiel running around.

I just can’t wrap my head around why he is targeted so much for this deficiency.. like he was going to be the lynchpin of our defensive structure. He deserved a 2 year deal with at least this season on working on that at vfl level.


This is my post from the mass past players thread.. man I’d love us to give as much shit to players like Redman and Martin who haven’t been within arms length of an oppo forward all season. But I guess it’s easier to back the club in moving on Mass because he’s small and doesn’t defend. Spare me. We ****ed up simple as that. Anyone defending it is flat out wrong. You don’t build your side around a single wing or half back.

Jealousy. I hate Hawthorn too, but it's jealousy and blinkers on about our own club.

 

[LB#16]

The year is 2031.

Massimo has just made his 5th All Australian.

3rd Premiership at Hawthorn.

He's doing cashies at Box Hill explaining how this whole saga happened.

We're still sitting on Bigfooty, talking about how we don't need him.

Threads are still being locked.

It's the gift that keeps on giving.

"Essendon still haven't won a final" for the cherry on top.

 

[katana]

i actually thought massimo defended his one-on-ones very well last night. to accuse him of 'jogging up and down the wing' is being obtuse, he works hard.

 

[FootyGuru]

I keep reading this sorta stuff with Mass’s name attached to it. His lack of defence blah blah. We have Redman who hasn’t manned up all season and mids like Parish and Shiel running around.

I just can’t wrap my head around why he is targeted so much for this deficiency.. like he was going to be the lynchpin of our defensive structure. He deserved a 2 year deal with at least this season on working on that at vfl level.


This is my post from the mass past players thread.. man I’d love us to give as much shit to players like Redman and Martin who haven’t been within arms length of an oppo forward all season. But I guess it’s easier to back the club in moving on Mass because he’s small and doesn’t defend. Spare me. We ****ed up simple as that. Anyone defending it is flat out wrong. You don’t build your side around a single wing or half back.

I would have definitely liked Massimo kept, but defensively you simply can’t have too many sub 180cm players. At least with Shiel or Kelly etc you can envision with the right attitude they would be able to defend a lot similar sized or smaller, but at 178cm Massimo is only able to defend other short people.

 

[Keystone agony]

He played half back basically the entire season, may have started the odd centre bounce on the wing but 90%+ of the time he started in the backline. His role did change slightly but he wasn’t a wingman this season.

Predominantly back end of season played wing

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Mistakes are mistakes.
I do not change my philosophy or n Mass based on other **** ups.
The process was a stuff up but the fact others where kept and he was let go doesn’t change my view that we need players with elite skills that are also better at defensive transition or have elite speed or elite endurance.
My view is they all have to be replaced over a certain period.

Not all mistakes are equal. Theres taking the wrong kid in the draft vs making decisions from having a fundamentally broken theory of football. The obvious concern is its the latter, cause I dont see how we are closer to whatever vision Scott has vs building what Hawthorn have.

 

[FootyGuru]

Collingwood also made similar mistake letting ginnivan go for peanuts too. When ginis name was mentioned here during last trade period, the idea was shut down left and right by the so called experts here.

Let’s focus on the future, because way too many hyperbolic revisionists

 

[Keystone agony]

Sorry mate we should have tagged you

I just hate hindsight

We even had people talking up Zerk Thatcher a week ago

All we had last year was people saying we dont defend and Massimo was one of the biggest culprit for it? Alot including myself wanted to keep him but i didnt see too mamy saying he should be getting 2 years and onto the senior list before it appeared that he may be on the move before trade week

Any below avg joe can come along after a player plays a good game and say gee theyre a good player. Predicting it before it happens is the only part i care about, because its likely they were a good player before that game

 

[ant555]

You really think we can be that picky? One of our major downfalls this season was execution,. We needed good kickers 5 years ago and meanwhile you're even defending Scott in his thread because we don't have the cattle. The argument that he only works well in a particular system is weird.

Overall personality I think we do. If we gave him two years then fine but he fixes his be issue. I have defended Scott over lack of cattle but Mass is one guy. He was in great form earlier in the year when they could not win. He is in great form now but it is their midfield form that has made the difference.
If we have him maybe he cuts down turnovers by 10 or so a game and he hits more targets inside 50 for sure but without their system to play in he would not be as effective as he is now and we don’t have the players to play that system. We do not have the run and spread. We don’t have inside ball wing abilities across the board and we do not have another 3 or 4 elite kicks to go with him.
So why not look at drafting / finding players that have elite skills plus another elite quality we need and build on that.
Mass was never going to cover half back and what makes the Hawks elite at half back are the likes of Scrimshaw / Hardwick / Scicily / Weddle / Amon / Impy.
Fix that. Play Martin / Duursma / Roberts on the wing. Hopefully some EL-Hawi as well.
Not a quick fix but it is a build option.

 

[ant555]

i actually thought massimo defended his one-on-ones very well last night. to accuse him of 'jogging up and down the wing' is being obtuse, he works hard.

Jogging not the word. Working up and down his wing. Anyway I am not just going on a few games I have watched on TV. They have been a side the I have been keen to watch live to see exactly how they set up and play so there has been 7 live games.

 

[ant555]

Not all mistakes are equal. Theres taking the wrong kid in the draft vs making decisions from having a fundamentally broken theory of football. The obvious concern is its the latter, cause I dont see how we are closer to whatever vision Scott has vs building what Hawthorn have.

We can never be what the Hawks are until we have been where they have.
We are Richmond or Melbourne looking to find some stars and break out of mediocrity. We are not building off a winning culture.

 

[dank420_]

Overall personality I think we do. If we gave him two years then fine but he fixes his be issue. I have defended Scott over lack of cattle but Mass is one guy. He was in great form earlier in the year when they could not win. He is in great form now but it is their midfield form that has made the difference.
If we have him maybe he cuts down turnovers by 10 or so a game and he hits more targets inside 50 for sure but without their system to play in he would not be as effective as he is now and we don’t have the players to play that system. We do not have the run and spread. We don’t have inside ball wing abilities across the board and we do not have another 3 or 4 elite kicks to go with him.
So why not look at drafting / finding players that have elite skills plus another elite quality we need and build on that.
Mass was never going to cover half back and what makes the Hawks elite at half back are the likes of Scrimshaw / Hardwick / Scicily / Weddle / Amon / Impy.
Fix that. Play Martin / Duursma / Roberts on the wing. Hopefully some EL-Hawi as well.
Not a quick fix but it is a build option.

But you have to start somewhere. Why wouldn't he be the a part of that process? He's 21. you don't magically slowly build these lists. You have to actually have these players on the list to start the process. how are you expecting to add 3 or 4 elite kicks to the list when your argument is that 1 elite kick on the list is useless to us, so you trade them away?

Do you see why this argument is not making any sense?

 

[coastalpipeline]

Rd 1 Hawthorn got blown out with Archie Perkins ripping through their midfield.

Fair to say Mitchell deserves a lot of credit getting the team to the level they are at.

Hawks winning with abrasive physicality and efficient transition offence.

So where did that perkins go?

 

[Snake Charmer]

I would have definitely liked Massimo kept, but defensively you simply can’t have too many sub 180cm players. At least with Shiel or Kelly etc you can envision with the right attitude they would be able to defend a lot similar sized or smaller, but at 178cm Massimo is only able to defend other short people.

He would have been in the group of 35-42 on the list. With elite attributes, one that can hardly be taught. Especially to a few of our blokes. A great depth player to develop but for some reason the buck stopped with him.

 

[BuffDog]

I think we really need to stop worrying about what opposition teams or former players are doing and focus on doing everything we can to build a list that can contend from when Tassie enter the league.

I will say one thing about Geelong and Hawthorn though - they have shown the value of small forwards and players with elite foot skills in high pressure finals. That’s what we need to target.

 

[ant555]

But you have to start somewhere. Why wouldn't he be the a part of that process? He's 21. you don't magically slowly build these lists. You have to actually have these players on the list to start the process. how are you expecting to add 3 or 4 elite kicks to the list when your argument is that 1 elite kick on the list is useless to us, so you trade them away?

Do you see why this argument is not making any sense?

Why do I have to see why my opinion is not making any sense ?
Why is wanting to build with players who have more strings to their bows an issue ?
We traded for Duursma to fix a wing issue.
We drafted Roberts to play a similar role but he has more agression at the footy.
My argument is not having one elite kick is useless.
My argument is and always has been I have not been as annoyed as others that he has gone because he only ticks one box as far as elite goes. That is it.

Are you saying we will never find an elite kick again ? Is one player that we made a mess of the signing process going to stop us from ever getting to top 4 ?
No I doubt you are and the only thing I am saying is as good as he is our system is not going to maximize his best and we can easily draft a player with good skills and a few other aspects in the same way the Hawks have. They have picked off Mass as the cherry on top player. We do not even have a cake yet.

Looking at this years draft I would say if you drafted Berry you have already covered off a highly skilled player who has defensive pressure and can play half forward / wing.

I have offered my opinion and accept that it is in the minority. My history in footy has been more around coaching and recuiting. I do not see things the same as most. I am often wrong but this is my list building opinion. Everyone can disagree if they want.

The only thing I will say is if we as a club where onto this a bit earlier it would not have happened. Scott did not absolutely want him gone but for some reason the message back from Dodoro was he will be good with a 1 year deal. Problem was Mitchell was already talkimg to him about two years and not looking to play him from half back. He was gone before we realised and the message from Scott was offer him two years then. It was another nail in the Dodoro coffin and similar to the Josh Jenkins fail a number of years back.
Adrian thought eveything was okay well past the point where it was not.