Autopsy Round 5, 2024: GWS v St.Kilda

[Yawkey way]

Another zealot shutting down any conversation.
He does not lead, clogs the forward line and the only time we looked like being competitive in the forwards was when he went off.
This was more to do with GWS going to sleep, but FFS the question can't be asked before being shut down and abused.
Last year before he came back from injury, we scored freely, when he came back we struggled, you are the one not looking at what happens
Is it Kings fault? Probably not, it is up to the forward coach to structure the forward line properly. Also Hammer, Sharmen. SKUNK and King is one too tall.
We know King is not a leading forward, so why plop it on his head in congestion all the time.
Where are the leads from the other forwards?
The question about King can be asked without you lot going off the deep end.

St.Kilda supporters have always got goo goo over saviour players. The forward line is dysfunctional, change the line-up, structure or coach, but these scores of 70 to 80 won't cut it.

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With his pace he should be playing more like Cameron imo, on the move leading up sprinting back trying to create separation. Unfortunately he seems content to lock arms and wrestle which defenders would love imo. I think king looks far more dangerous and useful for us when he pushes up the ground and has an opportunity to fly for marks and the space to use his pace, I’d play him at chf.

I think caminiti and membrey as the leading forwards is the way to go with the players we have at present. But to answer your question we’re not a better side without king imo but the forward line certainly needs some serious work, we look too tall and we’re not getting enough out of our smalls.

 

[Saintbloke]

Yep the shocking start to the season has exposed us completely. Definitely not top 4 - barely make the 8 - horrible list.

I mean look at our losses so far -

lost to GWS (1st on the ladder) by 1 point,
lost to Geelong (4th on the ladder) by 8 points on a ground where they are rarely beaten (by anyone),
lost to Essendon (currently 9th on the ladder) by 4 points virtually after the siren.

We're done for - time for a rebuild!!!!

Close enough is good enough I say!

 

[Cairnsman]

Yep the shocking start to the season has exposed us completely. Definitely not top 4 - barely make the 8 - horrible list.

I mean look at our losses so far -

lost to GWS (1st on the ladder) by 1 point,
lost to Geelong (4th on the ladder) by 8 points on a ground where they are rarely beaten (by anyone),
lost to Essendon (currently 9th on the ladder) by 4 points virtually after the siren.

We're done for - time for a rebuild!!!!

The point is, didnt the rebuild start when Lyon returned? We had some early wins before R6 last year and a couple more later in the season that looked OK, but outside of that its mostly been pathetic type of of performances you'd typically expect from a bottom 4 side that is rebuilding.

We will be very inconsistent in what we deliver for a fair while yet while we get games into a critical mass of players who might be then looking like the list rebuild is where it needs to be.

The catch 22 with rebuilds is you won't know if you've got the right players a AND/OR enough talent to contend until you reach said critical mass. It's why recruiting a list to content in elite sport is the hardest job if all, especially at a poor and disadvantaged club like outs. Just bloody tough. It's why I remind myself, Ross is a great coach, but he doesn't have a magic wand.

 

[Remboy]

Close enough is good enough I say!

Morally we’re on top of the ladder.

 

[tomjoad]

Yep the shocking start to the season has exposed us completely. Definitely not top 4 - barely make the 8 - horrible list.

I mean look at our losses so far -

lost to GWS (1st on the ladder) by 1 point,
lost to Geelong (4th on the ladder) by 8 points on a ground where they are rarely beaten (by anyone),
lost to Essendon (currently 9th on the ladder) by 4 points virtually after the siren.

We're done for - time for a rebuild!!!!

I'm kind of reminded of Brisbane from a few years back, where they were losing games by the slimmest of margins from any team, whether it was the top 4 down to about 10th.
They just had to tweak their game ever so slightly, and get their kids up to speed.
The next season, they were top 4 themselves...and have been ever since.
I'm hoping that's where we're at...not this season (we might sneak into the 8 though) except unlike Brisbane we're able to adjust that little bit more than them, so that we may actually win the feckin' thing.

 

[True Believer]

The other thing I have been saying since Lyon came back was he can't turn water into wine, he doesnt have a magic wand and that he sold the Prez a mandate to undertake a hard rebuild.

Those few wins we had up to R6 probably reinforced the idea Ross may well be capable of turning water into wine but our record and performances since about R6 last year have been bottom 8.

I'm curious, for those fans that predicted we would make top 4, or were adamant we wouldn't slide, where do you predict we'll finish now? Or do you think our issues are still only as a result of injury?

Injuries have a ripple effect, especially when they start to mount up. It's all well and good having versatile players, but everyone has one thing that is what they do best. I think the absence of Crouch has been more significant than people realise. He was our most productive and reliable mid for most of the past two season. If we can build some depth in the mids from the current crop that mitigates Crouch's absence to some degree, but we aren't currently building, we're plugging holes. Henry improved the look of our midfield group and that lasted what -2 games.

If the midfield grows, then everything else starts to look better as well..... It's no coincidence that King looked great in the first couple of games before we added yet more players to the unavailable list.

 

[SteeleSaints]

I think we know enough about RTB's history to understand you cant expect to win big games just restricting the opposition scoring. We need to be able to score freely and consistently ourselves.

For me it's 'fools gold' looking at our close losses and believing we were unlucky or nearly there. In all our losses, we have had long periods where we weren’t competitive and the opposition were well on top. We do choke their scoring when they get a run on, but during those periods, we dont look like scoring ourselves.

It was a great come back yesterday but we have to remember GWS completely shut off. They allowed us back in which was more critical than us getting a run on at the end. Come a finals game they go for the throat and win by 40 or 50 points.

You take the win if we had of pinched it, but we still need to address the long periods in games we are non competitive. We cant expect to win games playing one or two quarters of very good footy its 'fools gold' and RTB knows that.

 

[CursingFijian]

The other thing I have been saying since Lyon came back was he can't turn water into wine, he doesnt have a magic wand and that he sold the Prez a mandate to undertake a hard rebuild.

Those few wins we had up to R6 probably reinforced the idea Ross may well be capable of turning water into wine but our record and performances since about R6 last year have been bottom 8.

I'm curious, for those fans that predicted we would make top 4, or were adamant we wouldn't slide, where do you predict we'll finish now? Or do you think our issues are still only as a result of injury?

I don’t think our season is over, but I never had us finishing top 4.

We’ve lost 3 games to a resurgent Geelong away, a hot and cold Bombers outfit, and the supposedly best team in the competition away.

We were within touching distance of winning each of those, and the Bombers loss is the only one that I feel uncomfortable with.

What troubles me is how many poor quarters of footy we’ve played. We’re incredibly inconsistent at the moment. Is that because we’re young?

We are capable of scoring in a hurry. We brought the aliens on way too late against the Giants. I’d just like to see us string four solid quarters together at this stage.

 

[beside the seaside]

Our issue is our skill execution both in front of goal and around the ground. With decent skill execution we would have won a few more games.

If we can tidy that side of our game up we are well in the finals hunt.

 

[Ads734]

Props to Riley Bonner

36

Riley Bonner

Age

27

Ht

190cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

D/M

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.2

4star

K

12.1

4star

HB

5.2

4star

M

4.3

4star

T

1.4

3star

MG

279.8

4star

D

12.3

3star

K

10.3

4star

HB

2.0

1star

M

3.5

3star

T

1.3

2star

MG

279.8

4star

D

21.4

5star

K

14.0

5star

HB

7.4

5star

M

5.0

5star

T

2.0

4star

last two weeks, has really responded and improved defensively.

 

[Cairnsman]

I don’t think our season is over, but I never had us finishing top 4.

We’ve lost 3 games to a resurgent Geelong away, a hot and cold Bombers outfit, and the supposedly best team in the competition away.

We were within touching distance of winning each of those, and the Bombers loss is the only one that I feel uncomfortable with.

What troubles me is how many poor quarters of footy we’ve played. We’re incredibly inconsistent at the moment. Is that because we’re young?

We are capable of scoring in a hurry. We brought the aliens on way too late against the Giants. I’d just like to see us string four solid quarters together at this stage.

As others have stated, it's fools gold to categorise any of our losses, irrespective of which team our losses were against, as being validation we are a good team save for some bad luck with injuries. If that makes fans feel better then I don't begrudge them for easing the pain, we are after all Saints supporters and we are well conditioned to masking our emotions in that regard.

But the reality is we are in a hard rebuild and the massive challenge ahead still lays in the area of talent acquisition. There is still a way to goes and it would be really beneficial if we could have some luck with injury so the coaches a can get an extended look at a healthy list.

 

[Ads734]

As others have stated, it's fools gold to categorise any of our losses, irrespective of which team our losses were against, as being validation we are a good team save for some bad luck with injuries. If that makes fans feel better then I don't begrudge them for easing the pain, we are after all Saints supporters and we are well conditioned to masking our emotions in that regard.

But the reality is we are in a hard rebuild and the massive challenge ahead still lays in the area of talent acquisition. There is still a way to goes and it would be really beneficial if we could have some luck with injury so the coaches a can get an extended look at a healthy list.

Well we havn;t had any blow outs in this rebuild and had two all australians and [layed finals last year. So if this is the 'hard rebuild' then can;t wait for us to be done .he scoring will come. Still think its less the actual goal kicking and more when we are getting our shots from.

 

[EddieMurphy]

As much as we shouldnt even consider that question, the answer is definitely yes. Melbourne and the Bulldogs won a flag with gun midfileds and throw together forward lines. You rarely if ever see key forwards winning the Norm Smith Medal in winning GF sides, they mostly go to midfielders who impact and win the big games. We had the best key forward in the game in 2009/2010 and he wasnt able to drag us over the line.

Max is good but Im convinced his weaknesses will not allow him to become great. Absolutely I would do the trade, but they would want to be elite midfielders with plenty of years left.

Still got lots of improvement in him. How do you rate him compared to his brother?

 

[Ads734]

Also likeing year 2 of Cama

 

[pebblesofsand]

The point is, didnt the rebuild start when Lyon returned? We had some early wins before R6 last year and a couple more later in the season that looked OK, but outside of that its mostly been pathetic type of of performances you'd typically expect from a bottom 4 side that is rebuilding.

We will be very inconsistent in what we deliver for a fair while yet while we get games into a critical mass of players who might be then looking like the list rebuild is where it needs to be.

The catch 22 with rebuilds is you won't know if you've got the right players a AND/OR enough talent to contend until you reach said critical mass. It's why recruiting a list to content in elite sport is the hardest job if all, especially at a poor and disadvantaged club like outs. Just bloody tough. It's why I remind myself, Ross is a great coach, but he doesn't have a magic wand.

No - rebuilding is pretty much a continuous process.

We got rid of a number of senior players but it wasn't in the hunt for draft picks which is the usually the case for an all out rebuild.

Other than Gresham we got very little for Billings and Coffield other than clearing the salary cap a bit. We simply moved on players who needed to be moved on and invested in other players who could either fill gaps (Bonner is a classic) or fit a glaring need (Dow and Henry).

Unfortunately these three early close losses could have a really significant impact on where we finish this year (could easily turn 6th into 14th) but that is not a reflection of the list more the evenness of the competition.

Granted we need things to go our way (but so does every club) but our list is not that far of it and our results confirm it.

Couple of other things - I was disappointed yesterday that Lyon choose to be negative and play Windhager as a tagger just as I have been disappointed all year in Garcia not getting a run earlier.

We've been short of midfielders (especially quick ones) and we've picked everything else as the sub instead of Garcia. And against the Pies, Windy showed he was a midfielder not a tagger.

 

[Sainter1873]

King has a lot of work to do. For someone with his talent, he should be influencing the result most weeks. In saying that, there’s not much he can do with the types of inside 50 kicks we dish up every week. Getting him more involved higher up is the logical solution during a game. Cleaning up our inside 50 kicks is the ultimate solution but that’s a much harder thing to do. I’ve seen this for years and it’s not improving.

Sharman on a wing isn’t working. He had three disposals before moving into defence. That’s awful for someone in the midfield. We’re badly missing Wood and Henry. Garcia was a bright spot.

We’re a young, inconsistent team. With our injury list, this type of performance is going to happen regularly. Our elite players need to drag us over the line but Sinclair isn’t playing four quarters of good footy yet. It’s only Steele, Marshall and Wilkie doing that at the moment.

 

[EddieMurphy]

Not sure what our first string midfield looks like anymore tbh

Even with all available it's 2nd string

 

[The Cobra]

Just had a look at Marshall’s stats yesterday - that was some sort of a game against quality opposition in Briggs - absolutely towelled him up!

16 Clearances!

For those misguided souls who criticise him for belting it forward from a centre bounce think about it - we have an ordinary & slow midfield so a quick handball to a Rozee type is not an option plus he almost always kicks it straight towards the goals - so he is at least predictable to the forwards & Im sure is following the team plan.

Take a bow Rowan - outstanding performance!

 

[littlecreatures]

The stat I referenced was 10 wins out of 23 games, that is a whole season in terms of games, so you can't blame the draw. We have played every side bar 2 in that stretch, and we are below average. These are the facts.

Unfortunately we won 11, 10 and 11 out of 18 the years prior to Ross. This is just more of the same which is very very ordinary.

The other reality is that we also finished last season with 13 wins 10 losses. Just noting you’re comparing until round 6 last year with other previous home and away seasons, which isn’t a fair or valid comparison.

The reality is we overachieved last season and the list has been rebuilding. We’re not a side yet that will be challenging the top 6 until such a time the list can be developed out.

 

[EddieMurphy]

King has a lot of work to do. For someone with his talent, he should be influencing the result most weeks. In saying that, there’s not much he can do with the types of inside 50 kicks we dish up every week. Getting him more involved higher up is the logical solution during a game. Cleaning up our inside 50 kicks is the ultimate solution but that’s a much harder thing to do. I’ve seen this for years and it’s not improving.

Sharman on a wing isn’t working. He had three disposals before moving into defence. That’s awful for someone in the midfield. We’re badly missing Wood and Henry. Garcia was a bright spot.

We’re a young, inconsistent team. With our injury list, this type of performance is going to happen regularly. Our elite players need to drag us over the line but Sinclair isn’t playing four quarters of good footy yet. It’s only Marshall and Wilkie doing that at the moment.

He should watch some Nick R tapes. He is a good runner for his size.

 

[The_Steadier]

Instead of Marshall hack kick the ball forward 20 times a game.. I’d rather have him tapping to one of our mids and getting better/ cleaner entries and bring the rest of the midfield into the game.. Him hack kick forward = our other mids having no impact, and potential intercepts by opposition.

Exactly.
Marshalls individual stats are only ever half the story.

Often he has massive individual clearance stats- but we lose clearances as a team (particularly effective clearances) badly.

His 'grab the ball and hack it forward' clearances come at an opportunity cost to us.
We lose the opportunity for any of those ruck contests to have far more chance of being effective (via a ruck tap to a mid).

Marvelling at marshalls individual clearance and contested possession numbers in isolation is only looking at half of the equation.

 

[Cairnsman]

Playing further upfield is good for him. He has to work a bit harder, and gets his hands on the ball more and influences games by bringing others into play. The pressure is then off him when going for goal, because his responsibilities lie elsewhere.
Caminiti however, though raw, loves being the mark clunking, goal kicking full forward. Sharman and Membrey handy foils.

I know I have a bit of fun with Sharman but it doesn't change my view that I don't think he's AFL standard. Caminiti is the guy I think we should trial as the deepest tall forward for a while and see if he can develop into the role. Members if he can get back to previous levels if performance on a consistent basis is the obvious 2nd fiddle. A Hayes type to be the ruck/forward if his body can play AFL.

The upshot is lots of work to be done to build a forward line capable of going deep into September.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

An observation I’ve made of teams in all codes is that improving sides win and lose a lot of close ones prior to turning it around and going on to becoming premiers. We’re not far off.

 

[littlecreatures]

Exactly.
Marshalls individual stats are only ever half the story.

Often he has massive individual clearance stats- but we lose clearances as a team (particularly effective clearances) badly.

His 'grab the ball and hack it forward' clearances come at an opportunity cost to us.
We lose the opportunity for any of those ruck contests to have far more chance of being effective (via a ruck tap to a mid).

Marvelling at marshalls individual clearance and contested possession numbers in isolation is only looking at half of the equation.

I don’t think it’s fair to pile all the blame on Ro here. Our forwards don’t get active enough, so oppo’s defenders all too often intercept the hack clearance from the ruck.

 

[The_Steadier]

Tip of the hat to Hill who battled all day.

Hill was incredible

As was steele- truly A grade elite form from both of them at the moment