Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

Hey all,

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Jello_B]

Some other notes of interest:

Russia started moving a lot of military equipment to Belarus (again). Suggests the possibility of having another shot at Ukraine north of Kyiv. Perhaps to further stretch UKR defenses and produce more weaknesses elsewhere.

Fico shot to within inches of death but apparently now stable. Shooter was Juraj Cintula, a man associated with some kind of pro-Russian group (not necessarily pro-war, just pro-Russia). He said in an interview while in custody that he did it because he was unhappy with how his country was being run. Fico received life-threatening injuries but now announced to be stable. Zelenskyy has condemned the shooting.

Georgian govt passed the Foreign Agents law despite the massive protests (which still continue). Stipulations of the law include govt ability to designate anyone they choose as a "Foreign Agent", which then excludes them for applying to any post in national administration, includes ineligibility to stand for elections, or even to take a role of observer. Modelled on legislation iin Russia, this law can be used to enable charges against, or dissolve, any media outlet does not follow an RF narrative. As Georgia has been run by a pro-Russia govt since the multiple invasions, it is likely the law will be employed similarly.

Hi Mobbs, I have not been following this closely. Does the law use the language “anyone they choose” or is it just applied that way?
In principal I actually don’t mind the concept that if you are receiving “funding” from international sources this should firstly be known publicly, and also you may be restricted in filling some positions.
Would stop Israel doing what they are doing, and maybe the US wouldn’t be such a shambles if their government wasn’t on the teet of private backers.

 

[Mobbs]

The RF constitutional court has determined that citizens can be charged for symbols they displayed before those symbols were criminalised.

This means that if you stuck an lgbt rainbow on your social media 5 years ago, you could now be charged for it. Also applies to such other "extremist" references as something pro-Navalny, or peace references such as the white-blue-white flag.

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[Jello_B]

The RF constitutional court has determined that citizens can be charged for symbols they displayed before those symbols were criminalised.

This means that if you stuck an lgbt rainbow on your social media 5 years ago, you could now be charged for it. Also applies to such other "extremist" references as something pro-Navalny, or peace references such as the white-blue-white flag.

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Sorry I was talking about Slovakia

 

[Millky95]

 

[Mobbs]

Sorry I was talking about Slovakia

And sorry I was just posting a topic I'd read on, and didn't see you'd posted. It wasn't meant to be a response - the RF's evil phobias-in-law are a different topic.

I think you're talking about Georgia, actually:

Hi Mobbs, I have not been following this closely. Does the law use the language “anyone they choose” or is it just applied that way?
In principal I actually don’t mind the concept that if you are receiving “funding” from international sources this should firstly be known publicly, and also you may be restricted in filling some positions.
Would stop Israel doing what they are doing, and maybe the US wouldn’t be such a shambles if their government wasn’t on the teet of private backers.

If it's as you construe, I'd be generally ok too. But in Russia it's used purely to marginalise and threaten anyone who says anything against the party line. I don't even know if there's "foreign funding" involved. It's probably true in some cases but sometimes an entity is simply declared a foreign agent if there is "foreign influence" - which is quite a fluid term and I don't know the details.

Generally it is being used for Russian media outlets in Russia, eg Novaya Gazeta & Mediazona for sure, and (uncertain but mobs like) OVD-Info, Caucasian Knot, The Insider, etc.

Once you are on this list, you must declare yourself a foreign agent along with your media, and any other media quoting you must also annotate that you have quoted a foreign agent.

It's criticised for the cancellation of independent media (fortunately most of these groups have simply fled Russia so that they can continue operating) and tracking any alleged antagonistic (non-motherland uber alles) activity.

RF foreign agent law gives them the right to exclude any external observation of election activities. Basically, the elections can only legally be overseen by United Russia & Putin-supported candidature.

This is why so many thousands of Georgians took to the streets. They aren't against the law because of the law itself, but because it's clearly inserted by Russia into Georgia.

But the protests didn't stop it. And now Georgia will become a new Belarus. Unless of course if Georgia stages an uprising and throws out the Russian influence. Otherwise they are ****ed.

Remember that opposing the war, or even criticising it, or even stating the losses Russia experiences, can make you a foreign agent. And if you do it WHILE a foreign agent, you're up for arrest or dissolution in the case of an entity.

Guardian shows how even an ex-PM can be declared a foreign agent just because criticism can't be possible from within the country, it must be an influence from without: [Previous RF PM who now has a critical viewpoint on the RF, declared a foreign agent.]

Carnegie Europe draws the links between the RF law & the recently passed Georgian law: [Why Is Georgia Again Trying to Push Through an Unpopular Foreign Agent Law?]

IPI talks at length about the way it's used to kill freedom of the press: [Ten years of Russia’s foreign agent law: Evolution of a press freedom crackdown]

Moscow Times mentions how if you're a foreign agent, you can't earn money from advertising: [Putin Signs Ban on Advertising for 'Foreign Agents']

Radio Liberty talks about how political watchdogs & even gender studies results in being "lawed" as undesireable : [Russia Designates Mediazona, OVD-Info, And Others As 'Foreign Agents']

 

[Mobbs]

And I also haven't been here as often. Not since a guy wrote that he didn't care if both countries annihilate each other, but did care if anyone called them bad names. When the latter became a thread rule, I broadened my interface a bit and share myself more thinly (imagine me running my hands down my hips in a burlesque costume). (Ok don't - nobody needs that image)

 

[jatz14]

Utter tosh. Stalin sided with the Nazis on carving up Europe. Chief in those negotiations was Russia letting the Nazis have Poland in exchange for the Nazis letting Russia take the Baltics.


If Hitler didn't double cross Stalin and go for the Baltics / Russia anyway they would have been on the same side of WW2.

The agreements were all documented. It was only after the collapse of the USSR that the agreement to carve up Europe between Stalin & the Nazis was discovered.

Stalin is a Nazi collaborator, end of story. And Putin glorifies him to this day.

The end game of WW2 for Hitler was always the conquest of the Soviet Union. The invasion of Russia was literally the point of invading France.

Secure the West before turning East.

So, the double cross was inevitable.

All of Hitler's treaties and peace deals was just manoeuvring his enemies, to further his goals of conquest.

All of which points to the utter stupidity of going into peace talks with someone who has territorial ambitions.

Because if your negotiating for peace, but they are negotiating to strengthen their hand in the next round of conflict, it's going to end badly for you.



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[Visions]

Absolute tosh on your part.
I suggest you read some history

Not the first time in the thread the same poster has tried to rewrite past history.

I remember when they was was stating the the disintegration of Yugoslavia was due to NATO (wrong) and then the IMF (wrong again). They certainly have their own warped view of things.

 

[Visions]

Belbek airfield (a little north of Sevastopol) has been under fire again (two days in a row), as well as (reportedly) other areas of Crimea including Dhankoy, Sevastopol & Balaclava. The news is that Balaclava were believed to have restored a harbour there which had been abandoned for many years.

Belbek was absolutely battered. News of the damage levels is hard to find, this image is alleged to be from there (unverified). I thought it looked like a Grad but bloggers are refering to it as some kind of radar system.

The words ATACMS, SCALP/Storm Shadow were floated around, and fragments of cluster munitions were found nearby.

View attachment 1990191

Official government channels of Russia - "All missiles were shot down with no damage or injuries."
Unofficial Russian channels - A S400 and S300 launcher were destroyed along with a S400 radar (pictured above), 2 MiG 31 fighters, a fuel and lubricants warehouse which burnt for a long long time, and 11 soldiers killed.

The US didn't want Ukraine to attack oil refineries with drones made in Ukraine, so I take this with a grain of salt and file it in the "believe it when I see it" draw.

 

[Visions]

Oh and Putin is in Beijing.

View attachment 1990208

So Putin took along 20 high ranking delegates with him. Pretty sure they weren't swapping cooking tips.

This was to shore up Russia's support and get some more trade going between the two for the Russian military machine.

Yet there are still a lot of idiots in the west including the US who think that they could get China to stop Russia even though a normal mortal knew it wasn't possible. Bunch of muppets.

 

[Visions]

The long drawn out affair is costing Russia amd Ukraine far more than the US and Europe. As your subsequent post shows European countries are cynically bypassing their own sanctions to reduce their own burden.

I was more referring to the long term economic cost that will be incurred by the US and Europe. The longer the current war goes, the more money Europe and the US are spending on helping, and then when Russia decides to turn its focus on Europe, the economic cost incurred then will rise exponentially.

 

[Rob R]

No they weren't, this is pure cold war propaganda. The communists were the first people Hitler hunted

Were France best buds with the nazi's when they signed a non aggression pact? or the half dozen other neighbouring countries?

The sphere of influence stuff isn't as bad as people say, consider the Russian empire pre WW1. Do you think the freak out against the Solomon islands accepting Chinese money is lunacy? They are in our sphere of influence

People under soviet occupied Poland were a lot better off than people under nazi rule, note the lack of death camps. It obviously only lasted a year ish before the inevitable attack on communism

Was Chamberlain best buds or was he buying time?

Maybe look up Katyn Forrest massacre and the Ribbentrop agreement.

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[Mobbs]

Official government channels of Russia - "All missiles were shot down with no damage or injuries."
Unofficial Russian channels - A S400 and S300 launcher were destroyed along with a S400 radar (pictured above), 2 MiG 31 fighters, a fuel and lubricants warehouse which burnt for a long long time, and 11 soldiers killed.


The US didn't want Ukraine to attack oil refineries with drones made in Ukraine, so I take this with a grain of salt and file it in the "believe it when I see it" draw.

I thought exactly the same thing - it seems eerily similar to the US's rhetoric about the attacks on oil refineries. "We're not overly thrilled ... anyway what's on TV ..."

 

[Baldur]

Not the first time in the thread the same poster has tried to rewrite past history.

I remember when they was was stating the the disintegration of Yugoslavia was due to NATO (wrong) and then the IMF (wrong again). They certainly have their own warped view of things.

Tankies gota tank.

 

[jatz14]

Official government channels of Russia - "All missiles were shot down with no damage or injuries."
Unofficial Russian channels - A S400 and S300 launcher were destroyed along with a S400 radar (pictured above), 2 MiG 31 fighters, a fuel and lubricants warehouse which burnt for a long long time, and 11 soldiers killed.


The US didn't want Ukraine to attack oil refineries with drones made in Ukraine, so I take this with a grain of salt and file it in the "believe it when I see it" draw.

This was because they thought it would hit international oil trading.

The issue was never hitting targets in Russia, it was hitting oil targets in Russia.

Anyway, the US was wrong, and now knows it.

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[Zidane98]

Looks like summer is going to be extra hot in Crimea for the fascist occupiers

 

[Zidane98]

Is it viable for Russia to continue Crimean occupation when their military is under constant bombardment? They were much better off having Sevastopol when Crimea was not occupied. Certainly the Black Sea fleet was much safer back then.

 

[wannabejack]

"For Ukraine, the road to victory runs through Crimea. It is the key. It is the decisive terrain. Liberating Crimea, ....., will change everything in this war.
Liberating Crimea means first making it untenable for the Russian army, navy, and air forces on the peninsula and then occupying it."

 

[Cap]

I was more referring to the long term economic cost that will be incurred by the US and Europe. The longer the current war goes, the more money Europe and the US are spending on helping, and then when Russia decides to turn its focus on Europe, the economic cost incurred then will rise exponentially.

wouldn't stress, dudes a stock standard cooker looking for conspiracy in every corner.

 

[Cap]

"For Ukraine, the road to victory runs through Crimea. It is the key. It is the decisive terrain. Liberating Crimea, ....., will change everything in this war.
Liberating Crimea means first making it untenable for the Russian army, navy, and air forces on the peninsula and then occupying it."

Ben Hodges has been saying this for 2 years

Lets hope it happens.

 

[barreness]

Sounds like a whole lot of speculation.

Yes, as opposed to the hypothetical future of Putin conquering all of Europe on the other side which is definitely not speculation

Wait, you believe the USSR won WW2?

You have swallowed the Russian propaganda hard.

In Europe? yes, Against the Nazi's? yes. The tide was turned at Stalingrad and flipped at Kursk. Obviously the pacific theatre was mainly the US(we did some stuff), though the Soviets were quickly marching through Manchuria(hence the nukes)

 

[barreness]

People in Poland were horribly persecuted ever way, its like asking do you want to be burnt or drowned. Also the Gulag system qualifies as death camps.

Not unless we call every interment camp a death camp. less than 10% death rate, though there were particularly horrible ones and it was devoid of morality under Stalin. Brutal labour camps

I think if you asked any of the non superior races they'd have a strong opinion about which was worse

Chamberlain was indeed buying time, in that you are correct. The UK was stalling for time to start getting their munitions etc, all those parts of a war economy to ramp up, none of that was there ready to fight Germany at the time.

Yes exactly, the same as Stalin was doing. That's the point

 

[barreness]

Allies certainly don't win the war when they do without the Soviets and the Soviets certainly don't win the war with out allied materiel from a start.

Europe is lost without the Soviets. The lend lease program certainly helped keep the momentum of the Soviet counter offensive, only 16% was delivered before Stalingrad and this was mainly food. The program was largely civilian vehicles which hugely helped supply lines but actual armaments was a tiny fraction of Soviet production

Interestingly the lend lease the USSR received amounted to less than $200billion in todays money, less than Ukraine has got over a longer period. Obviously difficult to compare era's and if you do it on straight vehicle count lend lease dwarfs it

 

[barreness]

France never signed a non-aggression pact with the Nazis, nor did 'the half dozen other neighbouring countries'. Poland signed one, in 1934, so what exactly are you talking about?

Throw in Poland and Turkey, I'm kinda drawing the neighbouring bit but yeh there's six

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_pact#List_of_non-aggression_pacts

French Third Republic Nazi Germany	The Franco-German Declaration	December 6, 1938[15][16]
Estado Novo (Portugal) Spanish State	Iberian Pact	March 17, 1939
Kingdom of Denmark Nazi Germany	German–Danish Non-Aggression Pact [de]	May 31, 1939[17]
Nazi Germany Republic of Estonia	German–Estonian Non-Aggression Pact	June 7, 1939[18]
Nazi Germany Republic of Latvia	German–Latvian Non-Aggression Pact	June 7, 1939[18]
Nazi Germany Soviet Union	Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact	23 August 1939

 

[barreness]

Yeah. Peace in our times. Just sign a peace deal, prevent the bloodshed, all will be rosy.
If they had rejected the peace deal, and forced the issue with Hitler then, when Germany was still not as strong as it would become, and Hitler not as entrenched, history may have turned out very different.

Who is they? I don't think Hitler ever sat down for a peace talk, some half hearted speech in 1940 to maybe not completely destroy Britain

The USSR wanted a three part pact with Britain and France to attack Germany as they made land grabs in the late thirties, this was rejected largely because Britain thought they would go east and they hated commies

But, a peace deal is always better than conflict, am i right?

Ummmmmmm almost certainly yes, I'm not counting a puppet state that murders millions of your people as a peace deal