Play Nice The NM Devil's Chessboard Thread - Part II

[Chadwiko]

Before the offensive last year they were getting five weeks training

That's more than the violent prisoners Russia is sending to fight in Ukraine get at least;

Russian prisoners sent to Ukraine must now fight until the end of the war rather than for 6 months, report says

Russian prisoners recruited to fight in Ukraine are no longer being sent for six months, the BBC reported, but instead must stay until the war ends.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Ukraine will join NATO, precisely because Russia invaded them and demonstrated the need to join a European military alliance.

IF Russia never invaded, then they definitely could have brokered a treaty that included Ukraine never joining NATO.

Massive Russian own-goal.



Sure.

"Leave Ukranian territory, and we'll end the war right now".

Ball is in Russia's court.

When will Ukraine join NATO? When has NATO been a European military alliance? NATO is just US Hegemony. There will never be a US military base in the Ukraine.

You mean treaties for peace that were purposely broken by the West in the past as admitted by Western Leaders?

The Russians are happy to sue for peace, they are in the ascendancy. The West is happy for generations of Ukrainians to die for profit. At some stage Zelensky will get turned over and peace will happen quite quickly after that.

 

[Chadwiko]

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_223084.htm

 

[rickety]

Before the offensive last year they were getting five weeks training

First Group Of Ukrainians Finishes Advanced U.S. Military Training In Germany

The first group of 635 Ukrainian fighters has finished a five-week advanced U.S. training course in Germany on sophisticated combat skills and armored vehicles, the Pentagon said.

www.rferl.org

In the US from what I can tell you do an eight week basic course on the vehicle, then crew do another 12 weeks on their specialism (gunner, maintenance, commander etc)

So roughly 25 per cent of the training

We used to do 12 and 12 .... quite probably different now.
Training though is way different to the real world.
I guess they won't be wasting time ironing and spit polishing boots .... nor learning each others names.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_223084.htm

Do you believe everything they or the government say?

If they aren't sending troops then they aren't doing s**t except wasting tax payer money and their own military inventory.

 

[Chadwiko]

Do you believe everything they or the government say?

If they aren't sending troops then they aren't doing s**t except wasting tax payer money and their own military inventory.

They can't really 'send troops' until Ukraine is formally in NATO, and Ukraine won't formally join NATO until the war is over.

Nobody wants a full-blown conflict between NATO and Russia. But also nobody wants Russia to steamroll over a sovereign neighbour.

So, the status quo at the moment is; provide aid, materials, and equipment. Help Ukraine defend itself. Make the war too expensive, too inconvenient, and too unpopular for Russia to maintain.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

They can't really 'send troops' until Ukraine is formally in NATO, and Ukraine won't formally join NATO until the war is over.

Nobody wants a full-blown conflict between NATO and Russia. But also nobody wants Russia to steamroll over a sovereign neighbour.

So, the status quo at the moment is; provide aid, materials, and equipment. Help Ukraine defend itself. Make the war too expensive, too inconvenient, and too unpopular for Russia to maintain.

If they can't send troops then who is going to use all this military aid in the Ukraine?

There are lots of people who have wanted a full-blown conflict between NATO and Russia. Some in Russia but mostly in the US.

Make the war too expensive? Well that won't work. The costs of production of war materials for Russia is significantly below that of the West. The inconvenience will all be in the West as people wake up and realise that politicians don't give a s**t about their own citizens. Why would the war be unpopular in Russia? They support it and this war is existential for them. The recent terrorist attack in Russia has resulted in significant recruitment to the armed forces.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Genocidal maniacs

 

[The Warlord]

Supporting Ukraine is supporting Nazis.

 

[The Warlord]

Why though? Is Russia going to launch an offensive deep into Ukraine, and beyond the areas they claim are independent/Russian territory?

Likely yes.

If that's the case, doesn't that prove the case that Zelensky, NATO, and the EU have been making? That Putin won't stop unless he's stopped?

Not if the Russians do it as part of the war, defeat the Ukranian military and then agree to withdraw back to their borders as is the most likely outcome.

Also, given the Ukranians have launched regular attacks deep into Russian territory including on Moscow after choosing to fight on rather than accept the peace deal they were on the brink of signing in 2022, the idea this "proves" anything is a bit silly.

Ukraine chose a Big War against Russia after the peace negotiations, they've got a Big War.

It's a pretty bizarre thing to say with a straight face that Ukraine should setup defensive barriers well inside their own borders at the same time as trying to claim that sending Ukraine military support is "prolonging the war".

I'm saying if they are getting aid, it should be defensive materiel, not decades old armoured vehicles aimed at offensive operations.

The Ukranians aren't gettng any of their land back, the summer 2023 counter offensive debacle proved that once ands for all..

The only way there's a remote possibility of that is if three US heavy armoured divisions deployed there with complete airt cover etc.

And that means nuclear war. You may be willing to sacrifice your children (you're certainly keen on other people's kids dying for imperial aims) but I don't wish my son to die or have a s**t life over who controls ******* Kramatorsk mate.

 

[The Warlord]

More Nazis on "our" side.

 

[The Warlord]

Ukraine will join NATO, precisely because Russia invaded them and demonstrated the need to join a European military alliance.

Ukraine is never joining NATO man.

NATO doesn't want Ukraine lol.

https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-summit-seeks-agreement-ukraine-bid-after-turkey-deal-sweden-2023-07-10/

Brussels and London and Paris don't give two shits about Ukraine, they know it was a corrupt economically broken hole BEFORE the war. They're not taking it on after the war.

The war will end with peace negotiations and the very first item will be that Ukraine is never joining NATO.

IF Russia never invaded, then they definitely could have brokered a treaty that included Ukraine never joining NATO.

Massive Russian own-goal.

This is simply untrue.

Sure.

"Leave Ukranian territory, and we'll end the war right now".

Ball is in Russia's court.

I think you'll find its Russian forces advancing further into Ukraine's court by the day now they've broken through the "impregnable" fortress at Adviivka.

 

[The Warlord]

The Russians have formed a new Army Group North it seems, this is not good news for Ukraine.

 

[The Warlord]

Speaking of MUH SOVEREIGNTY and countries that invade others to impose their will.

 

[The Warlord]

That's more than the violent prisoners Russia is sending to fight in Ukraine get at least;

View attachment 1968475

Russian prisoners sent to Ukraine must now fight until the end of the war rather than for 6 months, report says

Russian prisoners recruited to fight in Ukraine are no longer being sent for six months, the BBC reported, but instead must stay until the war ends.

www.businessinsider.com

Apart from the reality that the prisoners fighting with Wagner was a temporary phenomenon centred around Bakhmut, even that's not correct.

A captured Russian prison inmate-turned-soldier said the Wagner Group's paramilitary trained him for 3 weeks and didn't expect him to survive the Ukrainian assault

The 48-year-old man — convicted on murder, robbery, and drug offenses — was fighting in Bakhmut, Ukraine, an area dubbed "the meat grinder."

www.businessinsider.com

This actual Wagner guy says he got three weeks. There's no difference between three and five weeks training when you're going to the kind of front that's in Ukraine.

Its also funny you're keeping up the "Russian prisoners" line when the reality is new recruits to the Ukranian forces are being dragged off the streets - kidnapped.

Young Ukranian me don't want to fight a losing war that only the Nazi psychos are still enthusiastic for.

"The 28-year-old is one of thousands of young Ukrainian men keeping their heads down, dodging conscription and avoiding registering their details as required. Artem is cautious when he ventures out, and avoids places like metro stations where police mount document checks looking for draft-dodgers.

“Some of my friends are more paranoid — they never go out,” he says.

Draft-dodging plagues Ukraine as Kyiv faces acute soldier shortage

An early burst of patriotic fervor saw draft centers swamped with volunteers, but that has waned with Vladimir Putin’s war in its third year.

www.politico.eu

The Russian forces in Ukraine now are regular army, well equipped, battle hardened, they get to rest and rotate, they get rerinforced.

Ukraine just introduced a law meaning that there's no end to military service once you've been snatched off the street.

Tell me who the real prisoners are here?

 

[The Warlord]

The Ukranian lines are collapsing in the Donbass.

I don't blame these guys for retreating.

If they stay the Russians just drop FABs on them.

 

[The Warlord]

They can't really 'send troops' until Ukraine is formally in NATO, and Ukraine won't formally join NATO until the war is over.

Nobody wants a full-blown conflict between NATO and Russia. But also nobody wants Russia to steamroll over a sovereign neighbour.

So, the status quo at the moment is; provide aid, materials, and equipment. Help Ukraine defend itself. Make the war too expensive, too inconvenient, and too unpopular for Russia to maintain.

None of which are happening.

Russian economy is doing just fine - better than most Western equivalents.

There's no major attacks that dramatically impact ordinary Russian quality of life, just stupid stunts like flying little drones into Moscow apartment blocks.

As for unpopularity, the stupid attacks above and ever increasing US aid have simply proven to Russians that Putin is right when he says NATO is at war with Russia.

 

[The Warlord]

Oh look, police breaking up political protests and kicking journalists out in the US is it.

 

[The Warlord]

Genocidal maniacs

Remember the bullshit about how it was ACKCHUALLY a misfired PIJ rocket that hit the hospital because Israel would never do that.

 

[The Warlord]

Make the war too expensive? Well that won't work. The costs of production of war materials for Russia is significantly below that of the West. The inconvenience will all be in the West as people wake up and realise that politicians don't give a s**t about their own citizens. Why would the war be unpopular in Russia? They support it and this war is existential for them. The recent terrorist attack in Russia has resulted in significant recruitment to the armed forces.

They're obviously getting enormous assistance from China too

 

[The Warlord]

The Outsize Influence of Small Wars

The small wars waged by European empires generated arguments for the legitimacy of state violence that remain in use today. Lauren Benton’s new book, They Called it Peace, finds that the era of gunboat policing anticipated the age of the predator drone.

jacobin.com

This is a great read

 

[The Warlord]

Monuments to Lenin v monuments to Bandera.

 

[The Warlord]

 

[The Warlord]

This what supporting more aid for Ukraine means.

 

[Chadwiko]

The straight up Russian propaganda in here is reaching all time highs.

It's hilarious.