Play Nice The NM Devil's Chessboard Thread - Part II

[DesertRoo]

View attachment 1967861
Trump is pro-Ukraine, so much for the "he's Putin's tool" bullshit.

What was the commitment El-Trumpo is trying to enforce NATO members to uphold?
4% of GDP has to be spent on military, otherwise known as a protection racquet, against an enemy that's been neutered since Yeltsin.

 

[DesertRoo]

This is one of the all time classic Australian films, about the above.

 

[The Warlord]

They're going to send them Vietnam era crap like the M113.

The Bradley has already been shown as immensely vulnerable and the Humvees are just FPV/Lancet targets

This is a disgrace, tens of thousands of Ukranians are going to get blown apart in these things this summer because neither Trump or Biden wants the war as an election issue.

Stomach churning stuff.

 

[Chadwiko]

They're going to send them Vietnam era crap like the M113.

The Bradley has already been shown as immensely vulnerable and the Humvees are just FPV/Lancet targets

This is a disgrace, tens of thousands of Ukranians are going to get blown apart in these things this summer because neither Trump or Biden wants the war as an election issue.

Stomach churning stuff.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I cbf looking it up right now), but haven't there been multiple reports out of Ukraine that the Bradley has out-performed expectations? They still have something like 2/3rds of the Bradleys they've been sent (despite copping an absolute pounding), and Ukrainian soldiers/crews absolutely love the Bradley.

I swear I can recall reading multiple such reports. But perhaps I'm wrong - as I said I CBF confirming now.

 

[The Warlord]

This is one of the all time classic Australian films, about the above.

All time classic film full stop.

 

[Chadwiko]

Bradley destroys T-90M:

 

[Bojan KantKick]

The UK is also turfing disabled people off welfare to save money.

This is stomach churning, supporting the war in Ukraine is a hard right position.

Neither the US nor the UK are doing what the people want. Democracy apparently.

 

[Chadwiko]

Neither the US nor the UK are doing what the people want. Democracy apparently.

Huh?

A majority of Americans say that the United States is not doing enough to support Ukraine.

Gallup 12 April 2024;

More Americans Say U.S. Is Not Helping Ukraine Enough

More Americans now say the U.S. is not doing enough to assist Ukraine in its war with Russia, while a majority still favor helping Ukraine reclaim its territory.

news.gallup.com

 

[Bojan KantKick]

So to be clear you do support the UK and US sending billions to prolong imperial war in eastern Europe while life expectancy drops, food bank use sky rockets and diseases like rickets made a reappearance.

This is not the left or progressive position, its a hard right worldview, neoconnery writ large.

If this was 1967 you'd be saying we have to keep up the fight in Vietnam because we can't risk Indonesia being the next domino to fall lol.

It's easier for the sheep to follow the government rhetoric than for them to think. Western Government's are mostly uni parties for this very reason.

 

[The Warlord]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I cbf looking it up right now), but haven't there been multiple reports out of Ukraine that the Bradley has out-performed expectations? They still have something like 2/3rds of the Bradleys they've been sent (despite copping an absolute pounding), and Ukrainian soldiers/crews absolutely love the Bradley.

I swear I can recall reading multiple such reports. But perhaps I'm wrong - as I said I CBF confirming now.

Its very difficult to find sources that aren't wildly biased one way or the other, but the abject failure of the counter offensive tells its own story on the Bradley.

This is about as reliable as it gets I reckon:

This was supported by prior reports, including one from the New York Times, highlighting that Ukraine’s Western-trained 47th Mechanised Brigade had lost 30 percent of its Bradleys within just two weeks.

U.S. report: One third of Ukraine’s Bradley vehicles taken out

Following the delivery of American M2 Bradley fighting vehicles to Ukraine in April, multiple Western sources have reported at least

moderndiplomacy.eu

They certainly haven't been "game changers" or shown any ability to drive through Russian lines at will as the spin had it in early 2023.

 

[The Warlord]

Bradley destroys T-90M:

Two Bradleys didn't destroy a T-90 that had already been hit by ATGMs and FPVs. The crew escaped. The Bradley 25mm fire looks cool and knocked out some of the sensors, but that's it.



Russians loading captured Bradley on to train to display in Moscow.



What happened the first time Bradleys came up against real soldiers rather than scared Iraqi or Afghan villagers lol.

 

[Chadwiko]

Two Bradleys didn't destroy a T-90 that had already been hit by ATGMs and FPVs.

View attachment 1968190

Russians loading captured Bradley on to train to display in Moscow.

View attachment 1968191

What happened the first time Bradleys came up against real soldiers rather than scared Iraqi or Afghan villagers lol.

There's plenty of photos of destroyed armor coloumns from both sides. That doesn't really 'prove' their efficacy one way or another.

My original point was simply that the Ukrainians seem to like the Bradleys, so it makes sense that they would request more.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Huh?

A majority of Americans say that the United States is not doing enough to support Ukraine.

Gallup 12 April 2024;

More Americans Say U.S. Is Not Helping Ukraine Enough

More Americans now say the U.S. is not doing enough to assist Ukraine in its war with Russia, while a majority still favor helping Ukraine reclaim its territory.

news.gallup.com

Do you read links that you post?

As military aid for Ukraine remains stalled in the U.S. House of Representatives, Americans themselves are equally split, at 36% each, between those who believe the United States is doing too much to help Ukraine and those saying it’s not doing enough

 

[Chadwiko]

Do you read links that you post?

Yes, I do;

"Majority Still Favors Supporting Ukraine in Reclaiming Territory
Fifty-five percent of Americans think the U.S. should continue to support Ukraine in reclaiming its territory, even if that requires prolonged involvement, rather than ending the conflict as quickly as possible, even if that means ceding territory to Russia (43%). These findings are unchanged from the previous readings in October. "

 

[The Warlord]

There's plenty of photos of destroyed armor coloumns from both sides. That doesn't really 'prove' their efficacy one way or another.

My original point was simply that the Ukrainians seem to like the Bradleys, so it makes sense that they would request more.

The Ukranians have to take what they're given. They certainly are more comfortable and "survivable" than their Russian equivalents (they have air con!)

But the Bradley certainly failed in its advertised role of being part of the tip of the spear that would bust through Russian lines last summer and Zelensky would be having beach parties in Crimea etc.

They seem effective at clearing the tree lines that are such a feature of this war, the 25mm cannon is very good there. But as soon as they get spotted by the ubiquitous Russian drones then in come the Lancets or the ATGMs and the Bradley is in serious trouble.

Tldr getting a whole bunch more isn't changing anything.

 

[Chadwiko]

Tldr getting a whole bunch more isn't changing anything.

Better than not getting anything.

Between the American and European packages, which are both individually LARGE, this does shore up the Ukranian defenses for a while.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Yes, I do;

"Majority Still Favors Supporting Ukraine in Reclaiming Territory
Fifty-five percent of Americans think the U.S. should continue to support Ukraine in reclaiming its territory, even if that requires prolonged involvement, rather than ending the conflict as quickly as possible, even if that means ceding territory to Russia (43%). These findings are unchanged from the previous readings in October. "

If you did you would have posted this to begin with.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Better than not getting anything.

Between the American and European packages, which are both individually LARGE, this does shore up the Ukranian defenses for a while.

How? They will be operated by raw recruits who don't want to be there.

 

[Chadwiko]

If you did you would have posted this to begin with.

I did... and that's why I posted it???

 

[Bojan KantKick]

I did... and that's why I posted it???

No. This is what you originally posted - A majority of Americans say that the United States is not doing enough to support Ukraine.

 

[The Warlord]

Better than not getting anything.

Between the American and European packages, which are both individually LARGE, this does shore up the Ukranian defenses for a while.

Then what though?

After the US elections the calculus changes again.

Tbh instead of Bradleys that'll just get attrited away, the Ukranians should be asking for every anti tank and personnel mine the West has and building the mother of all defence lines on the western side of the Dnipr and around Kyiv.

 

[Chadwiko]

Tbh instead of Bradleys that'll just get attrited away, the Ukranians should be asking for every anti tank and personnel mine the West has and building the mother of all defence lines on the western side of the Dnipr and around Kyiv.

Why though? Is Russia going to launch an offensive deep into Ukraine, and beyond the areas they claim are independent/Russian territory?

If that's the case, doesn't that prove the case that Zelensky, NATO, and the EU have been making? That Putin won't stop unless he's stopped?

It's a pretty bizarre thing to say with a straight face that Ukraine should setup defensive barriers well inside their own borders at the same time as trying to claim that sending Ukraine military support is "prolonging the war".

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Russia will keep going until Ukraine comes to the table and sues for peace, accepting that they will never join NATO.

What has been proven is that Putin wasn't bluffing when he said that the Ukraine was his red line.

 

[Chadwiko]

Ukraine will join NATO, precisely because Russia invaded them and demonstrated the need to join a European military alliance.

IF Russia never invaded, then they definitely could have brokered a treaty that included Ukraine never joining NATO.

Massive Russian own-goal.

Russia will keep going until Ukraine comes to the table and sues for peace

Sure.

"Leave Ukranian territory, and we'll end the war right now".

Ball is in Russia's court.

 

[The Warlord]

How? They will be operated by raw recruits who don't want to be there.

Before the offensive last year they were getting five weeks training

First Group Of Ukrainians Finishes Advanced U.S. Military Training In Germany

The first group of 635 Ukrainian fighters has finished a five-week advanced U.S. training course in Germany on sophisticated combat skills and armored vehicles, the Pentagon said.

www.rferl.org

In the US from what I can tell you do an eight week basic course on the vehicle, then crew do another 12 weeks on their specialism (gunner, maintenance, commander etc)

So roughly 25 per cent of the training