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The AFL wants 22 teams. Name your next four.
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littlecreatures
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Cunnington Cartel
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Link?
Just saw an NZ herald article about it the other day. Don’t have a link
I assume it's this.
Not ideal for AFL though. Says the plan now is to redevelop a ground Colin Maiden Park.
Judging by Google maps, none of the fields would be big enough for AFL, unless they fully rearrange the precinct. Ironically, there is an Aussie Rules ground there, but it's too skinny for actual AFL, and way too skinny if it had any seating.
Even if Auckland is going to have an AFL standard ground to play at, I'm not sure the AFL could actually pressure anyone into playing games there. It seems like the secondary markets are largely between the clubs and the respective governments that pay them to play there, but I could be wrong.
Population of 1.8m in Auckland. Wider market if more than 5m in NZ. A lot of potential members and sponsors.
If being paid the same per game, Auckland would be a more attractive prospect than selling games to NQ or the NT.
True, I'd rather play there than Darwin or Cairns, it just seems like the Victorian clubs are moving more towards wanting to play in their own state, although Cunnington Cartel showed me that the Saints were interested in playing in Auckland.
I actually think it'd be worth a look for the Giants after Canberra. Why not? If some are to be believed that playing 11 games in Western Sydney isn't going to make much difference to the Giants financial success, then they could still chase $$$ elsewhere if Canberra does actually get up and force the Giants out of there. Auckland would have more to offer them than even Newcastle, going by those numbers.
Part of the problem with these ventures is that it's usually similar teams every year. Fans will travel for a one off - if you recall the first Wellington game it got a decent crowd and lots of people flew over for it. 2nd year the tourists dried up as it was another St Kilda game. You need to change the teams every year.
My_Username
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Yeah, but it's also got the timezone/travel time issues of Perth, but without the supporters to make it worthwhile.
Auckland can't support a team yet, I'm just talking for one or two games a year.
But I reckon the timezone could work well for a second Friday night game. One in Auckland could play while everyone's having afterwork drinks at the pub on the east coast.
Here's another way they could do the conference system. Edit: To clarify, it's a different kind of "conference" where it's more just splitting the league up into two different ladders, but Vic sides would still travel every 2-5 weeks or whenever it is they do now.
At 21 teams, two conferences.
Victoria Conference: 10 teams
Australian Conference: 11 teams (new teams are Tasmania, Canberra, WA3)
Vic conference play each other once = 9 games
Oz conference play each other once = 10 games
Vic conference play Oz conference once = 11 games = 20 games
Oz conference play Vic conference once = 10 games = 20 games
Vic conference have three double ups = 23 games
Oz conference have three double ups = 23 games
Vic conference have a top 5 finals series, Oz conference have a top 5 finals series, the preliminary finalists of each series swap over to ensure that it's a possibility that an all Vic or all interstate GF can still happen.
At 22 teams:
Victoria Conference: 10 teams
Australian Conference: 12 teams (Brisbane 2 added)
Vic conference play each other once = 9 games
Oz conference play each other once = 11 games
Vic conference play Oz conference once = 12 games = 21 games
Oz conference play Vic conference once = 10 games = 21 games
Vic conference have two double ups = 23 games
Oz conference have two double ups = 23 games
Vic conference have a top 5 finals series, Oz conference have a top 6 finals series, the preliminary finalists of each series swap over to ensure that it's a possibility that an all Vic or all interstate GF can still happen.
At 23 teams:
Victoria Conference: 10 teams
Australian Conference: 13 teams
Vic conference play each other once = 9 games
Oz conference play each other once = 12 games
Vic conference play Oz conference once = 13 games = 22 games
Oz conference play Vic conference once = 10 games = 22 games
Vic conference have one double up = 23 games
Oz conference have one double up = 23 games
Vic conference have a top 5 finals series, Oz conference have a top 6 finals series, the preliminary finalists of each series swap over to ensure that it's a possibility that an all Vic or all interstate GF can still happen.
At 24 teams:
Victoria Conference: 10 teams
Australian Conference: 14 teams
Vic conference play each other once = 9 games
Oz conference play each other once = 13 games
Vic conference play Oz conference once = 14 games = 23 games
Oz conference play Vic conference once = 10 games = 23 games
No double ups
Vic conference have a top 5 finals series, Oz conference have a top 6 finals series, the preliminary finalists of each series swap over to ensure that it's a possibility that an all Vic or all interstate GF can still happen.
At 25 teams:
Victoria Conference: 10 teams
Australian Conference: 15 teams
Vic conference play each other once = 9 games
Oz conference play each other once = 14 games
Vic conference play Oz conference once excluding one team = 14 games = 23 games
Oz conference play Vic conference once excluding one team = 9 games = 23 games
No double ups
Vic conference have a top 5 finals series, Oz conference have a top 6 or top 8 finals series, the preliminary finalists of each series swap over to ensure that it's a possibility that an all Vic or all interstate GF can still happen.
At 26 teams:
Victoria Conference: 10 teams
Australian Conference: 16 teams
Vic conference play each other once = 9 games
Oz conference play each other once = 15 games
Vic conference play Oz conference once excluding one team = 15 games = 24 games
Oz conference play Vic conference once excluding one team = 9 games = 24 games
No double ups
Vic conference have a top 5 finals series, Oz conference have a top 8 finals series, the preliminary finalists of each series swap over to ensure that it's a possibility that an all Vic or all interstate GF can still happen.
At 27 teams:
Victoria Conference: 10 teams
Australian Conference: 17 teams
Vic conference play each other once = 9 games
Oz conference play each other once = 16 games
Vic conference play Oz conference once excluding two teams = 15 games = 24 games
Oz conference play Vic conference once excluding two teams = 8 games = 24 games
No double ups
Vic conference have a top 5 finals series, Oz conference have a top 8 finals series, the preliminary finalists of each series swap over to ensure that it's a possibility that an all Vic or all interstate GF can still happen.
At 28 teams:
Victoria Conference: 10 teams
Australian Conference: 18 teams
Vic conference play each other once = 9 games
Oz conference play each other once = 17 games
Vic conference play Oz conference once excluding three teams = 15 games = 24 games
Oz conference play Vic conference once excluding three teams = 7 games = 24 games
No double ups
Vic conference have a top 5 finals series, Oz conference have a top 8 finals series, the preliminary finalists of each series swap over to ensure that it's a possibility that an all Vic or all interstate GF can still happen.
Cunnington Cartel what do you think? I'm sure there's a glaring flaw in this somewhere, but the point is, there is a way, but at some point, if the AFL did keep expanding and expanding, then not everyone could play each other once a year, but at least the Vic's could and it wouldn't be a long wait for teams who don't play each other to play again.
At 21 teams, two conferences.
Victoria Conference: 10 teams
Australian Conference: 11 teams (new teams are Tasmania, Canberra, WA3)
Vic conference play each other once = 9 games
Oz conference play each other once = 10 games
Vic conference play Oz conference once = 11 games = 20 games
Oz conference play Vic conference once = 10 games = 20 games
Vic conference have three double ups = 23 games
Oz conference have three double ups = 23 games
Vic conference have a top 5 finals series, Oz conference have a top 5 finals series, the preliminary finalists of each series swap over to ensure that it's a possibility that an all Vic or all interstate GF can still happen.
At 22 teams:
Victoria Conference: 10 teams
Australian Conference: 12 teams (Brisbane 2 added)
Vic conference play each other once = 9 games
Oz conference play each other once = 11 games
Vic conference play Oz conference once = 12 games = 21 games
Oz conference play Vic conference once = 10 games = 21 games
Vic conference have two double ups = 23 games
Oz conference have two double ups = 23 games
Vic conference have a top 5 finals series, Oz conference have a top 6 finals series, the preliminary finalists of each series swap over to ensure that it's a possibility that an all Vic or all interstate GF can still happen.
At 23 teams:
Victoria Conference: 10 teams
Australian Conference: 13 teams
Vic conference play each other once = 9 games
Oz conference play each other once = 12 games
Vic conference play Oz conference once = 13 games = 22 games
Oz conference play Vic conference once = 10 games = 22 games
Vic conference have one double up = 23 games
Oz conference have one double up = 23 games
Vic conference have a top 5 finals series, Oz conference have a top 6 finals series, the preliminary finalists of each series swap over to ensure that it's a possibility that an all Vic or all interstate GF can still happen.
At 24 teams:
Victoria Conference: 10 teams
Australian Conference: 14 teams
Vic conference play each other once = 9 games
Oz conference play each other once = 13 games
Vic conference play Oz conference once = 14 games = 23 games
Oz conference play Vic conference once = 10 games = 23 games
No double ups
Vic conference have a top 5 finals series, Oz conference have a top 6 finals series, the preliminary finalists of each series swap over to ensure that it's a possibility that an all Vic or all interstate GF can still happen.
At 25 teams:
Victoria Conference: 10 teams
Australian Conference: 15 teams
Vic conference play each other once = 9 games
Oz conference play each other once = 14 games
Vic conference play Oz conference once excluding one team = 14 games = 23 games
Oz conference play Vic conference once excluding one team = 9 games = 23 games
No double ups
Vic conference have a top 5 finals series, Oz conference have a top 6 or top 8 finals series, the preliminary finalists of each series swap over to ensure that it's a possibility that an all Vic or all interstate GF can still happen.
At 26 teams:
Victoria Conference: 10 teams
Australian Conference: 16 teams
Vic conference play each other once = 9 games
Oz conference play each other once = 15 games
Vic conference play Oz conference once excluding one team = 15 games = 24 games
Oz conference play Vic conference once excluding one team = 9 games = 24 games
No double ups
Vic conference have a top 5 finals series, Oz conference have a top 8 finals series, the preliminary finalists of each series swap over to ensure that it's a possibility that an all Vic or all interstate GF can still happen.
At 27 teams:
Victoria Conference: 10 teams
Australian Conference: 17 teams
Vic conference play each other once = 9 games
Oz conference play each other once = 16 games
Vic conference play Oz conference once excluding two teams = 15 games = 24 games
Oz conference play Vic conference once excluding two teams = 8 games = 24 games
No double ups
Vic conference have a top 5 finals series, Oz conference have a top 8 finals series, the preliminary finalists of each series swap over to ensure that it's a possibility that an all Vic or all interstate GF can still happen.
At 28 teams:
Victoria Conference: 10 teams
Australian Conference: 18 teams
Vic conference play each other once = 9 games
Oz conference play each other once = 17 games
Vic conference play Oz conference once excluding three teams = 15 games = 24 games
Oz conference play Vic conference once excluding three teams = 7 games = 24 games
No double ups
Vic conference have a top 5 finals series, Oz conference have a top 8 finals series, the preliminary finalists of each series swap over to ensure that it's a possibility that an all Vic or all interstate GF can still happen.
Cunnington Cartel what do you think? I'm sure there's a glaring flaw in this somewhere, but the point is, there is a way, but at some point, if the AFL did keep expanding and expanding, then not everyone could play each other once a year, but at least the Vic's could and it wouldn't be a long wait for teams who don't play each other to play again.
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threenewpadlocks
Brownlow Medallist
Having one bunch of teams travel every week and another bunch of teams essentially not travel at all is just unfair and logistically impossible for a bunch of reasons. It's best to even out the travel as much as possible.
Sorry I should have clarified that Victorian teams would still travel exactly the same way they do now, it's just that these "conferences" would just be splitting the league up into two ladders so more teams stay alive during the season in their race for the finals.
My_Username
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How?
A team in Tas (one team) is always going to need to travel more than a team in Vic, and a team in the middle of nowhere (WA) is always going to need to travel further.
Unless you idea is to charter planes and have every team fly around in circles for a couple of hours every week (and I suspect the AFLPA, not to mention the environmentalists, might object).
Maybe we need to force teams to play 'home' games away, just to even up the travel? I'm sure your bulldogs would rejoice at playing their home game against Collingwood in Perth.
Maybe we kill of 8 Vic clubs to even it up?
What do you suggest?
Cunnington Cartel
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Good effort. I like how it facilitates an expanded number of clubs as time goes on, without needing to rejig the conferences during each expansion phase. During the early phases, the Vic double ups should be rotated each season; however, it would be good for the Aus double ups to be fixed so it maintains more derbies and slightly reduces the travel burden for non-Vic clubs (e.g. at 21 and 22 teams West Coast should always have double ups against Freo and WA3).
I’m not sure if the finals series is workable. With a final 5 system, the club that wins the second semi gets automatic qualification to the grand final. Therefore, there’d be two grand finalists after the second semi (one from each conference) and then two additional prelims to generate two more grand finalists (4 in total). Would there then be an extra week of finals between the prelim and GF? Then questions would be asked if the best teams are having too many weeks off during the finals.
During the later rounds of expansion, when there’s a top 5 and top 8 finals series running side-by-side, there ends up being a similar issue with three grand finalists after the prelim.
My thinking might be off here, but if I haven’t stuffed up, can you think of another solution to this?
Potentially, you could scrap the prelim cross overs, having an extra week of finals and holding conference GF’s the week prior to a ‘Super Bowl’ GF? But I really don’t like how that would guarantee Vic v Non-Vic opposition every year.
This link shows the various pathways previously-used finals systems.
AFL finals series - Wikipedia
Haha I replied to this but deleted them as I found the finals series to be exactly the biggest problem. But I agree that double ups should be preserved for WA teams etc.Good effort. I like how it facilitates an expanded number of clubs as time goes on, without needing to rejig the conferences during each expansion phase. During the early phases, the Vic double ups should be rotated each season; however, it would be good for the Aus double ups to be fixed so it maintains more derbies and slightly reduces the travel burden for non-Vic clubs (e.g. at 21 and 22 teams West Coast should always have double ups against Freo and WA3).
I’m not sure if the finals series is workable. With a final 5 system, the club that wins the second semi gets automatic qualification to the grand final. Therefore, there’d be two grand finalists after the second semi (one from each conference) and then two additional prelims to generate two more grand finalists (4 in total). Would there then be an extra week of finals between the prelim and GF? Then questions would be asked if the best teams are having too many weeks off during the finals.
During the later rounds of expansion, when there’s a top 5 and top 8 finals series running side-by-side, there ends up being a similar issue with three grand finalists after the prelim.
My thinking might be off here, but if I haven’t stuffed up, can you think of another solution to this?
Potentially, you could scrap the prelim cross overs, having an extra week of finals and holding conference GF’s the week prior to a ‘Super Bowl’ GF? But I really don’t like how that would guarantee Vic v Non-Vic opposition every year.
This link shows the various pathways previously-used finals systems.
AFL finals series - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
This is easier to do at 22 teams, it gets tricker past that but it's not that hard. It's just sorting the finals...
Week 1: Qualifying and Elimination Finals
1 v 6 QF
2 v 5 QF
3 v 4 QF
7 v 12 EF
8 v 11 EF
9 v 10 EF
Week 2: Semi Finals
QF losers v EF winners
Week 3: Wildcard Finals
QF winners v SF winners
Week 4: Preliminary Finals
QF winners + highest ranked WF loser if they haven't already used their double chance
Week 5: GF
Using 2023 ladder as an example.
Week 1
Pies v Saints (Pies win)
Lions v Blues (Lions win)
Port v Dees (Dees win, no wait, Port win cause Dees are inaccurate)
Giants v Cats (Giants win)
Swans v Bombers (Swans win)
Dogs v Crows (Crows win)
Week 2
Saints v Giants (Giants win)
Blues v Swans (Blues win)
Dees v Crows (Crows win, Dees inaccurate again)
Week 3
Pies v Crows (Pies win)
Lions v Giants (Lions win)
Port v Blues (Blues win)
Week 4: so, Port don't get a triple chance.
Pies v Giants (Pies win)
Lions v Blues (Lions win)
Week 5
Pies v Lions (Pies win)
1 v 6 QF
2 v 5 QF
3 v 4 QF
7 v 12 EF
8 v 11 EF
9 v 10 EF
Week 2: Semi Finals
QF losers v EF winners
Week 3: Wildcard Finals
QF winners v SF winners
Week 4: Preliminary Finals
QF winners + highest ranked WF loser if they haven't already used their double chance
Week 5: GF
Using 2023 ladder as an example.
Week 1
Pies v Saints (Pies win)
Lions v Blues (Lions win)
Port v Dees (Dees win, no wait, Port win cause Dees are inaccurate)
Giants v Cats (Giants win)
Swans v Bombers (Swans win)
Dogs v Crows (Crows win)
Week 2
Saints v Giants (Giants win)
Blues v Swans (Blues win)
Dees v Crows (Crows win, Dees inaccurate again)
Week 3
Pies v Crows (Pies win)
Lions v Giants (Lions win)
Port v Blues (Blues win)
Week 4: so, Port don't get a triple chance.
Pies v Giants (Pies win)
Lions v Blues (Lions win)
Week 5
Pies v Lions (Pies win)
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For 23 teams.
Let’s just say NZ is team 23, we’ve got ACT, WA3, Brisbane 2 and NZ now.
Vic conference + TAS and NZ = 12 teams
Oz conference = 11 teams
So two double ups required in Oz conference for now = 12 games + play 12 Vic sides once = 24 games
Week 1:
Vic 1 v Vic 2 for conference champion CF
Oz 1 v Oz 2 for conference champion CF
Vic 3 v Vic 6 EF
Vic 4 v Vic 5 EF
Oz 3 v Oz 6 EF
Oz 4 v Oz 5 EF
Week 2: Semi Finals
CF losers and highest-ranked EF winner v EF winners
Week 3: Wildcard Finals
CF winners and highest-ranked SF loser if they haven’t used their double chance + other SF winners
Week 4:
Wildcard winners and highest-ranked WF loser if they haven’t used their double chance
Week 5:
GF
2023 ladder
Vic: 1. Pies 2. Demons 3. Blues 4. Saints 5. Dogs 6. Bombers
Oz: 1. Lions 2. Power 3. Giants 4. Swans 5. Crows 6. Dockers
Week 1:
Pies v Demons (Pies CF winners)
Lions v Power (Lions CF winners)
Blues v Bombers (Blues win)
Saints v Dogs (Saints win)
Giants v Dockers (Giants win)
Swans v Crows (Swans win again by 1pt after goal wrongly awarded)
Week 2:
Power v Swans (Power win)
Demons v Giants (Giants win)
Blues v Saints (Blues win)
Demons out, they used their double chance
Week 3: Saints and Power out, double chances up
Pies v Giants (Pies win)
Lions v Saints (Lions win)
Power v Blues (Blues win)
Saints and Power out, double chances up
Week 4: conference finalists don’t play twice unless it’s GF;
Pies v Giants (Pies win)
Lions v Blues (Lions win)
Week 5: GF Pies win
Then readjust how many teams from other conference you play once based on how many double ups are needed in the Oz conference to ensure all teams from NSW etc play each other twice.
Let’s just say NZ is team 23, we’ve got ACT, WA3, Brisbane 2 and NZ now.
Vic conference + TAS and NZ = 12 teams
Oz conference = 11 teams
So two double ups required in Oz conference for now = 12 games + play 12 Vic sides once = 24 games
Week 1:
Vic 1 v Vic 2 for conference champion CF
Oz 1 v Oz 2 for conference champion CF
Vic 3 v Vic 6 EF
Vic 4 v Vic 5 EF
Oz 3 v Oz 6 EF
Oz 4 v Oz 5 EF
Week 2: Semi Finals
CF losers and highest-ranked EF winner v EF winners
Week 3: Wildcard Finals
CF winners and highest-ranked SF loser if they haven’t used their double chance + other SF winners
Week 4:
Wildcard winners and highest-ranked WF loser if they haven’t used their double chance
Week 5:
GF
2023 ladder
Vic: 1. Pies 2. Demons 3. Blues 4. Saints 5. Dogs 6. Bombers
Oz: 1. Lions 2. Power 3. Giants 4. Swans 5. Crows 6. Dockers
Week 1:
Pies v Demons (Pies CF winners)
Lions v Power (Lions CF winners)
Blues v Bombers (Blues win)
Saints v Dogs (Saints win)
Giants v Dockers (Giants win)
Swans v Crows (Swans win again by 1pt after goal wrongly awarded)
Week 2:
Power v Swans (Power win)
Demons v Giants (Giants win)
Blues v Saints (Blues win)
Demons out, they used their double chance
Week 3: Saints and Power out, double chances up
Pies v Giants (Pies win)
Lions v Saints (Lions win)
Power v Blues (Blues win)
Saints and Power out, double chances up
Week 4: conference finalists don’t play twice unless it’s GF;
Pies v Giants (Pies win)
Lions v Blues (Lions win)
Week 5: GF Pies win
Then readjust how many teams from other conference you play once based on how many double ups are needed in the Oz conference to ensure all teams from NSW etc play each other twice.
For 24 teams (let's say 3rd Sydney is in, still don't need more than three double ups for anyone interstate)
Vic conference = 12 teams (cause TAS and NZ are in it)
Oz conference 12 teams
Oz conference play each other once + three double ups = 14 games + play 10 Vic conference teams = 24 games
Vic conference play each other once + three double ups = 14 games + play 10 Oz conference teams = 24 games
For 26 teams (let's say NT and NQ)
Maybe you could argue you need four double ups for NT/NQ.
Vic conference = 12 teams
Oz conference = 14 teams
Oz conference play each other once + four double ups = 15 games + play 9 Vic conference teams = 24 games
Vic conference play each other once + four double ups = 15 games + play 9 Oz conference teams = 24 games
Surely you're done after that, I can't see NSW ever getting more than 3 teams (if you exclude ACT). It'll be 3rd Sydney or Newcastle but I doubt both. Doubt Adelaide gets a third either, and Tassie certainly won't get a second.
Also, the complex top 12 finals system still works for this.
Vic conference = 12 teams (cause TAS and NZ are in it)
Oz conference 12 teams
Oz conference play each other once + three double ups = 14 games + play 10 Vic conference teams = 24 games
Vic conference play each other once + three double ups = 14 games + play 10 Oz conference teams = 24 games
For 26 teams (let's say NT and NQ)
Maybe you could argue you need four double ups for NT/NQ.
Vic conference = 12 teams
Oz conference = 14 teams
Oz conference play each other once + four double ups = 15 games + play 9 Vic conference teams = 24 games
Vic conference play each other once + four double ups = 15 games + play 9 Oz conference teams = 24 games
Surely you're done after that, I can't see NSW ever getting more than 3 teams (if you exclude ACT). It'll be 3rd Sydney or Newcastle but I doubt both. Doubt Adelaide gets a third either, and Tassie certainly won't get a second.
Also, the complex top 12 finals system still works for this.
Sorry for the post spamming. Anyway, last point before I wait for others to interject but I doubt anything as complex as I've suggested would happen, even if the AFL does expand beyond 20 teams.
They might just do a two finals crossover system like I said and split the ladder into two, and split the Vic teams but ensure they play each other once.
For example:
5 Vic + 3 WA, 2 SA = Western conference
5 Vic + 2 QLD, 2 NSW, 1 ACT, 1 TAS = Eastern conference
Then just ensure there's enough double ups for interstate teams in the same conference and have the Vic sides play each other once in inter-conference games.
Super-long term:
5 Vic + 3 WA, 3 SA, 1 NT = 12 team Western conference
5 Vic + 3 QLD, 3 NSW, 1 ACT, 1 TAS, 1 NZ = 14 team Eastern conference
Eastern conference plays once + 3 double ups = 16 games + play 7 teams from other conference = 23 games and ensures Victorian teams play each other once
Western conference plays once + 5 double ups = 16 games + play 7 teams from other conference = 23 games and ensures Victorian teams play each other once
I think that works. No need to crossover either, just have Western champ v Eastern champ.
They might just do a two finals crossover system like I said and split the ladder into two, and split the Vic teams but ensure they play each other once.
For example:
5 Vic + 3 WA, 2 SA = Western conference
5 Vic + 2 QLD, 2 NSW, 1 ACT, 1 TAS = Eastern conference
Then just ensure there's enough double ups for interstate teams in the same conference and have the Vic sides play each other once in inter-conference games.
Super-long term:
5 Vic + 3 WA, 3 SA, 1 NT = 12 team Western conference
5 Vic + 3 QLD, 3 NSW, 1 ACT, 1 TAS, 1 NZ = 14 team Eastern conference
Eastern conference plays once + 3 double ups = 16 games + play 7 teams from other conference = 23 games and ensures Victorian teams play each other once
Western conference plays once + 5 double ups = 16 games + play 7 teams from other conference = 23 games and ensures Victorian teams play each other once
I think that works. No need to crossover either, just have Western champ v Eastern champ.
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I think you guys are massively overestimating where AFL is at in NZ.
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