Taking sides over Dark Emu

[Nankervis brothers]

I linked Mitchell's journal in my previous post. You can read the whole thing. http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks/e00034.html#chapter06

He even talks about the hoes:

Chapter VI 13 August.

"We crossed some patches of dry swamp where the clods had been very extensively turned up by the natives, but for what purpose Yuranigh could not form any conjecture. These clods were so very large and hard that we were obliged to throw them aside, and clear a way for the carts to pass. The whole resembled ground broken up by the hoe, the naked surface having been previously so cracked by drought as to render this upturning possible without a hoe."

What Mitchell is saying is the ground resembled ground broken by hoe, but what really happened is the drought created so many cracks it was possible to turn over the soil with sticks and by hand.

And that's how the first peoples did it. Using sticks and hands.

Possibly to gather the roots and yams under there.

There's good historical books, and then there's Pascoe's book. Nothing wrong with taking liberties. And there's certainly nothing wrong with being a hunter gatherer.

Some of you would fair dinkum believe Chariots Of The Gods is an accurate historical book if it suited your agenda.

You have twice addressed me in a post, and on both occasions resorted to ad-hominem and stereotyping. These aren't arguments.

Your original post claimed that Mitchell was simply enjoying the native grass and not describing an agricultural process. Yet the quote you used as evidence does describe stooking, threshing, and harvesting for food. I pointed out this contradiction. But, in good internet-debating form, you neglected to address the inconvenience.

You then quoted another Mitchell passage (concerning ground broken by hoe), and this is interesting. I take your point here, and you also touch on a problem with primary textual sources—language. Language is not, as we like to think, a transparent window onto the world. It is often ambiguous and so open to interpretation. And historians and writers, whether Left or Right, Pascoe or Windschuttle, bring their bias to the text. Good historiography aims to avoid this as much as possible, but as history itself is not politically neutral, neither is its writing.

FWIW, I don't think Dark Emu is without bias and exaggeration. However, it does provide a critical selection of details from authentic sources and synthesize these into a convincing narrative. It gives evidence for systems of land management and resource production; whether these systems fit within a Euro-centric notion of agriculture is probably a matter for debate.

I'm not sure the book renders the 'hunter-gatherer' label inappropriate (a label I see no problem with either), but it certainly problematises it. And the book makes a mockery of the concept of terra nullias.

That is my opinion. You are welcome to yours.

 

[ferball]

With stories passed from generation to generation for millennia, paintings, rock art etc how come we're only just heating about this type of thing now?

Yes language and culture is being destroyed but surely some of this survived and snuck through.

For years they've been ridiculed for inventing a 'burnt stick, why has not one person stepped forward before? Well, not that I can remember

I haven't read this book but I do listen and so all the things that have been referred to are things I've heard about before.

So you might not have but I've heard of towns in Victoria's high country, eel traps, nationwide resource trading networks, agriculture, primitive but still agriculture, sewing, weaving, a whole lot of incredible bushcraft. Excellent mental mapping techniques for the location of resources.

Different languages.

Message sticks and other symbolic languages (ie meaning and grammar/structure) that are written, or carved, sometimes understandable by people who can't speak the same language cos they live thousands of miles away. Including specialised sign languages that might be known only among certain members of an indigenous community but shared across many communities including ones that don't speak the same language. Highways, or travel networks set up to enable mass travel to events like the bunya festival or the Bogong moth festival.

All of this stuff was practised by people who were essentially hunter gatherers.

They didnt have cities, mass agriculture like the Middle East (for example) or standing armies.

But they are human and so they form societies as complicated, intricate and ... yes ... intelligent (cos that's what a lot of this really about) as any others on earth.

Maybe not as technologically proficient. But I guess if you don't have to spend half the year hiding inside from weather that'll kill you stone dead you don't have the time or need to spend countless hours coming up with intricate devices and complicated solutions to problems your last good idea caused.

You can play sport, swim and have seafood barbies instead.

 

[ferball]

That's been the law for 20;+ year iirc. With 1 parent Australian If you move to Australia you can apply and generally are given citizenship

1 Australian parent born in Australia = Australian

1 Australian parent in a third country = can be Australian

Only if the child is born in the second parents country or technically the USA and does not gain Australian citizenship before committing a crime can you be sent out of the country if they don't have aboriginality

Even that isn't right.

I'm not a fan of deportation tho.

 

[ferball]

My limited understanding is that whilst for instance alot of the central Australian mobs survived with culture intact, the ones around the east coast didn't as much. If you don't have to spend as much time to do the necessities of life them your society advances somewhat.

Or you all get killed and shipped off to places where you don't have the same connection you once did. Like missions and towns like Roeburn in WA.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

And yet you've cast aspersions on it by claiming he is as sincere as a politician.

A casual, not careful, reading of your comment might lead people to think you are accusing him of lying on a private document.

A careful reading of it leaves me wondering if you're implying that he is lying without saying it.

Here's another interpretation of that person. Not that I've met him but who cares...

He drifted for years because he couldn't relate to the empty meaninglessness of western consumer culture. As a result his life felt empty and he was unable to commit to anything because he thought it was all bullshit.

Suddenly he was given a connection to something outside himself, something bigger than him and something that forced him to reevaluate who he was and act on that.

As a result he's been in stable employment for15 years and advocates on behalf of his community.

Yeah, nah.

 

[ferball]

My point is there's much to be proud of in indigenous culture that there's no need to embellish it with a re-invention of the historical record. Moreover his assertion that the indigenous people were not hunter gatherers I find very hard to believe for one simple reason. It's known that advanced agriculture and establishment of permanent dwellings is the forerunner to the modern world. Once humans worked out how to produce a permanent supply of food, water and shelter he created many hours a day of spare time in which to use his intellect. This led to bronze and iron ages, overland and sea exploration, technical innovation and ultimately the industrial revolution. The world Pascoe presents is one where we are expected to believe that a long established advanced agricultural society existed including towns filled with permant dwellings existed... but none of the other advancements ocurred that are typical of an agricultural society.

Pretty sure this is the opposite of what happens.

Youre gonna have to take my word for it but years ago I saw a study that showed hunter gatherer lifestyles (and worldwide the involve simple agriculture) have the best ratio of time to resources and shelter.

Ie it takes about 20 - 25 hrs to hunt and gather enough resources for you and your kids averaged out over a week.

However the moment you develop more complex societies more hours are required because there are elements of society that need resources gathered for them, a standing army and the ruling class essentially.

So for non modern primarily agricultural societies the working hours increase.

Then once armies and kings start conquering people and making slaves then working hours increase even more.

 

[ferball]

Yeah, nah.

Sure, you know the guy and must be privy to his innermost thoughts.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

You can't even work out what homelessness means so the definition of "real aboriginal" is rather unlikely to be something that you could grasp.

You seem to believe that people sleeping in homeless shelters or sleeping in their cars don't count as homeless, so I think your judgement is pretty poor.

 

[Mockcockpit]

Even that isn't right.

I'm not a fan of deportation tho.

Yep, children born overseas to an Australian parent or parents are legally Australian citizens by descent. You complete the paperwork at the nearest embassy or consulate, and once processed, you receive a certificate of Australian citizenship by descent. If the correct paperwork is done, as I understand it, the process is automatic if you are under 18. If you are over 18 you also need to be of good character. Takes less than a month from memory. But you do have to apply for it.

 

[Chief]

You have twice addressed me in a post, and on both occasions resorted to ad-hominem and stereotyping. These aren't arguments.

Your original post claimed that Mitchell was simply enjoying the native grass and not describing an agricultural process. Yet the quote you used as evidence does describe stooking, threshing, and harvesting for food. I pointed out this contradiction. But, in good internet-debating form, you neglected to address the inconvenience.

You then quoted another Mitchell passage (concerning ground broken by hoe), and this is interesting. I take your point here, and you also touch on a problem with primary textual sources—language. Language is not, as we like to think, a transparent window onto the world. It is often ambiguous and so open to interpretation. And historians and writers, whether Left or Right, Pascoe or Windschuttle, bring their bias to the text. Good historiography aims to avoid this as much as possible, but as history itself is not politically neutral, neither is its writing.

FWIW, I don't think Dark Emu is without bias and exaggeration. However, it does provide a critical selection of details from authentic sources and synthesise these into a convincing narrative. It gives evidence for systems of land magement and resource production; whether these systems fit within a Euro-centric notion of agriculture is probably a matter for debate.

I'm not sure the book renders the 'hunter-gatherer' label inappropriate (a label I see no problem with either), but it certainly problematises it. And the book makes a mockery of the concept of terra nullias.

That is my opinion. You are welcome to yours.

"My aim is to give rise to the possibility of an alternative view of pre-colonial Aboriginal society."

It seems even the mere possibility is too much for some parts of society.

 

[EasternTiger]

"My aim is to give rise to the possibility of an alternative view of pre-colonial Aboriginal society."

It seems even the mere possibility is too much for some parts of society.

That's like saying "I'll watch Oliver Stone's JFK for an 'alternative view' and ignore source material that is the Warren Commission report."

You lot are doing more harm than good. Thread belongs on the conspiracy board.

 

[Sainteric]

"My aim is to give rise to the possibility of an alternative view of pre-colonial Aboriginal society."

It seems even the mere possibility is too much for some parts of society.

Like Aliens cheif, it's possible

Even that isn't right.

I'm not a fan of deportation tho.

Why not nearly all countries are the same.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Sure, you know the guy and must be privy to his innermost thoughts.

You pretty much lost the argument when you suggested that I accused him of lying on a private document, whatever you meant by that and then just lying full stop.

Perhaps you should have read my original post more closely.

 

[ferball]

You pretty much lost the argument when you suggested that I accused him of lying on a private document, whatever you meant by that and then just lying full stop.

Perhaps you should have read my original post more closely.

You're right. Sorry. My mistake.

I got confused when that other guy you quoted talked about people lying because they didn't claim their indigenous identity.

You said the exact opposite of what I accused you of.

I still don't agree with your assessment of that fella tho.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

You're right. Sorry. My mistake.

I got confused when that other guy you quoted talked about people lying because they didn't claim their indigenous identity.

You said the exact opposite of what I accused you of.

I still don't agree with your assessment of that fella tho.

No problems.

You don't know the fella, I do, but even I don't know him as well as his brothers and sisters and they're all of the same opinion too, in fact they're the ones that originally pointed it out to me. No big deal.

 

[Balls In]

"My aim is to give rise to the possibility of an alternative view of pre-colonial Aboriginal society."

It seems even the mere possibility is too much for some parts of society.

Nice little rider that hasn't stopped the ABC reporting this alternate history as fact (or schools from teaching it).

 

[Chief]

Nice little rider that hasn't stopped the ABC reporting this alternate history as fact (or schools from teaching it).

If new facts emerge, I am sure they will be amalgamated into this view.

 

[Sainteric]

Nice little rider that hasn't stopped the ABC reporting this alternate history as fact (or schools from teaching it).

The ABC like most of the left has never been about facts of the last twenty years, just the vibe

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I haven't read this book but I do listen and so all the things that have been referred to are things I've heard about before.

So you might not have but I've heard of towns in Victoria's high country, eel traps, nationwide resource trading networks, agriculture, primitive but still agriculture, sewing, weaving, a whole lot of incredible bushcraft. Excellent mental mapping techniques for the location of resources...

The recent bushfires have revealed more evidence of this;

Eel-harvesting system older than Egypt’s pyramids further revealed by bushfires

Bushfire reveals new sections of an ancient aquaculture system built by Indigenous people in south-west Victoria thousands of years ago.

www.abc.net.au

Extra sections of an ancient aquaculture system built by Indigenous people in south-west Victoria thousands of years ago have been discovered after a fire swept through the area over the past few weeks.

The Budj Bim Cultural Landscape, which includes an elaborate series of stone-lined channels and pools set up by the Gunditjmara people to harvest eels, was added to the UNESCO World Heritage List last year.

Some parts of the landscape, which also features evidence of stone dwellings, have been dated back 6,600 years — older than Egypt's pyramids...

 

[Pie eyed]

Nice little rider that hasn't stopped the ABC reporting this alternate history as fact (or schools from teaching it).

I feel so sorry for you, having your "alternate truths" devoid of even a scintilla of evidence, challenged by an alternate reality which hinges on mainly first hand observation.
You right wingers are really being hard done by lately.
Hopefully you survive this crisis of ignorance.
At least long enough to find a stinking hole full of human effluent to snuggle up in while the world passes you by.

Lots of love.
The normal people.



PS schools generally teach facts, till the Libs get their stinking little, campaignery fingers on the curriculum.

 

[Balls In]

The normal people...

 

[Pie eyed]

Yep you know, not the dickhead rightwing nut jobs.

 

[Sainteric]

I feel so sorry for you, having your "alternate truths" devoid of even a scintilla of evidence, challenged by an alternate reality which hinges on mainly first hand observation.
You right wingers are really being hard done by lately.
Hopefully you survive this crisis of ignorance.
At least long enough to find a stinking hole full of human effluent to snuggle up in while the world passes you by.

Lots of love.
The normal people.



PS schools generally teach facts, till the Libs get their stinking little, campaignery fingers on the curriculum.

They teach left wing dogma

 

[Pie eyed]

The teach left wing dogma

Who the?

 

[Chief]

Who the?

The Soros-funded socialist school system.