Autopsy Round 10, 2023: Hawthorn demolish the Eagles

[lethalselbow]

Kane Cornes decided to give Twitter a miss today. Damian Barrett’s sole post is a link to an article on the AFL site in which he talks about WCE (though still gives Hawthorn a backhander in the opening sentence). Absolute flogs.

Corner has been complimentary on Hawks.

Barrett is just a click baiter journo..

 

[cryptor]

Here's the thing. I can tell from watching the game that Brockman was one stand out, but when you look at the raw stats you'd think "Yeah, he had a decent game" not that he was best on ground. I want to know exactly how Champion Data calculate that rating.

I have a feeling it's the 93% DE from disposals mostly in the front half, the high level of score involvements and goal assists per disposal, the 3 tackles I50. It would explain why Cyril was always one of Champion Data's darlings. Brocky had a very Cyril like game.

Daniel Hoyne from CD has explained it on SEN periodically during his regular weekly segment.

Essentially for those ratings they look at what the expected result of a disposal is based on historical data and then if the player does better/worse than expectation they get/lose points.

So Brockman achieved much better results with his disposals than could have been expected of a player in his position attempting what he did.

 

[TylerDurden]

I know your trying to draw a parallel with the Hawks but Kane played in one of those CUB games on Saturday.
He had 6 touches, best he avoid social media, would have been torched beyond belief.

They lost by 120 pts.

 

[KermitJagger]

Daniel Hoyne from CD has explained it on SEN periodically during his regular weekly segment.

Essentially for those ratings they look at what the expected result of a disposal is based on historical data and then if the player does better/worse than expectation they get/lose points.

So Brockman achieved much better results with his disposals than could have been expected of a player in his position attempting what he did.

I know that's how they measure kick rating, but there's more that goes into it for the overall rating. They're obviously never gonna give it all away but I'd love to know.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

I know that's how they measure kick rating, but there's more that goes into it for the overall rating. They're obviously never gonna give it all away but I'd love to know.

There’s a data scientist job going there if you have the requisite skill set - then you’d get to know all their juicy secrets.

 

[CHUBBSS]

Does anyone know why we delisted seamus? As in was he not training well, doing everything possible so wanted to apply some pressure or was it just for list management reasons?

Because for his pace and how hard he attacks the footy I don’t see how it could be the former?

 

[Billyc]

From the tackle

3. Weren’t they tanking?​

Some observers have argued Hawthorn were tanking this season, but the Hawks dismissed that foolish assumption, when they annihilated West Coast on Sunday. You can’t be tanking in the race for the Tongala Cup, aka Harley Reid, and at the same time record your greatest winning margin over the Eagles. The 116-point win was the biggest since Round 7, 2014, when the Hawks put St Kilda to the sword. In a terribly lop-sided match, the Hawks kicked their highest score since Round 12, 2016. At times, they looked like Collingwood with the way they were able to move the ball, and if the Hawks can beat the Eagles by 116, what in the heck will Collingwood win by? 150 points? A highlight on Sunday was Josh Weddle’s game. He was picked No.18 in the 2022 draft and in his fourth game, he had 28 and kicked two. Dare we say green shoots?

Robbo and Barrett absolutely detest one another so he'd have enjoyed writing that first sentence. There are no "observers." There is one ******* who created a talking point and digs in on it weekly, without any support.

 

[KermitJagger]

Does anyone know why we delisted seamus? As in was he not training well, doing everything possible so wanted to apply some pressure or was it just for list management reasons?

Because for his pace and how hard he attacks the footy I don’t see how it could be the former?

List management reasons. He couldn't stay on the park, you can't retain a player who keeps getting hit with injuries when they haven't had the chance to prove their ability previously. I think the fact we re-rookied him speaks volumes about our faith in his ability to turn it around.

 

[badgrill]

What did Kane do today? I was watching the game on silent. I thought Kane was a ticket holder for the Sam Mitchell rebuild experience now.

thought he was more than positive while keeping in perspective when I heard bits of him on the SEN call

 

[hawk for 37]

After the floggings the Saints have handed out to the Hawks in the last couple of years, unless we are serving it up to them all game nest week, the Eagles game will be a quick distant memory.

The Blues have not recovered after flogging the Eagles a few weeks ago.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

thought he was more than positive while keeping in perspective when I heard bits of him on the SEN call

He's been fairly kind to us after the early rounds of this year - I think some may still be holding a grudge. The last 4-6 weeks I think he has been sold on the rebuild by his chats with Sam.

 

[CHUBBSS]

List management reasons. He couldn't stay on the park, you can't retain a player who keeps getting hit with injuries when they haven't had the chance to prove their ability previously. I think the fact we re-rookied him speaks volumes about our faith in his ability to turn it around.

Just seems odd we couldn’t find someone else to rookie, has more talent and is harder then majority of the list

 

[KermitJagger]

Just seems odd we couldn’t find someone else to rookie, has more talent and is harder then majority of the list

We didn't know that at the time. He's been a revelation, but he didn't show a lot of what he's showing right now in the VFL games prior to this year. Has risen to the challenge.

 

[smeltitdeltit]

Robbo and Barrett absolutely detest one another so he'd have enjoyed writing that first sentence. There are no "observers." There is one ******* who created a talking point and digs in on it weekly, without any support.

Fancy being called a fool by Robbo

 

[hawkinoz]

Does anyone know why we delisted seamus? As in was he not training well, doing everything possible so wanted to apply some pressure or was it just for list management reasons?

Because for his pace and how hard he attacks the footy I don’t see how it could be the former?

if we did not, we would have gone into draft with one less pick(pick 65 from memory). We thought we needed that steak knives in any trade.

Funnily I think we didn't use it and passed on our last pick. Don't think we maximised the trades with Lions. We left stuff on table( which suggests we need better personnel in club)

We had to delist someone and pick them back. Seamus was the one lowest on pecking order then.

We didn't know that at the time. He's been a revelation, but he didn't show a lot of what he's showing right now in the VFL games prior to this year. Has risen to the challenge.

Even at Box hill he wasn't this dominant. Some players play even better at AFL level.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Really don't get the chicken little 'we won't be happy when X beat us next!!' posts. It's really weird that people still can't grasp what a rebuild consists of. St Kilda are 7/3 and have been in the top 4 most of the season - they may well give us a touch up again. We will more than likely lose games against sides who are in the top 8 or just outside of it - some of them might just give us a bit of a belting along the way. If you can't enjoy an incredibly young side winning a game by 116 points and appreciate the green shoots when we are back in the losing column then I genuinely feel for you. I am as much of a curmudgeon as anyone and I hate losing more than almost anything - but the past two years expecting some dismal times but focussing on the upsides has absolutely done wonders for my mental health when it comes to my footy consumption.

There's light at the end of the tunnel here - but we'll have the endure some more floggings here and there in the mean time. This team wants to win - the Adelaide and GWS games were ample proof of that and wanting to make the Eagles hurt yesterday shows that we weren't going to be content with a win by a couple of goals. It doesn't make the odd touch up here and there mean all is lost.

 

[Flamin Joe]

From the tackle

3. Weren’t they tanking?​

Some observers have argued Hawthorn were tanking this season, but the Hawks dismissed that foolish assumption, when they annihilated West Coast on Sunday. You can’t be tanking in the race for the Tongala Cup, aka Harley Reid, and at the same time record your greatest winning margin over the Eagles. The 116-point win was the biggest since Round 7, 2014, when the Hawks put St Kilda to the sword. In a terribly lop-sided match, the Hawks kicked their highest score since Round 12, 2016. At times, they looked like Collingwood with the way they were able to move the ball, and if the Hawks can beat the Eagles by 116, what in the heck will Collingwood win by? 150 points? A highlight on Sunday was Josh Weddle’s game. He was picked No.18 in the 2022 draft and in his fourth game, he had 28 and kicked two. Dare we say green shoots?

It was refreshing to hear King during the commentary recognise that the moving on of Mitchell and O'Meara was the right call and has allowed our younger midfield to get the game time they needed to develop. He even went as far as suggesting WCE should be doing the same.

Stark contrast to the tank narrative other flogs have been parrotting in the media unable to see past any personal bias/hatred they have and see the big picture of what Mitchell was doing as he could see something in these kids that would take us forward rather than continuing to stagnate.

 

[Tall Tales and True]

The move to the backline seemed to make all the difference to Mitchell. Just about all the draft hype seemed right all of a sudden - pace, composure, touch, & the rest.

On SM-G973F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Yardie]

Robbo and Barrett absolutely detest one another so he'd have enjoyed writing that first sentence. There are no "observers." There is one ******* who created a talking point and digs in on it weekly, without any support.

I think Robbo likes Sam. He certainly likes Nash.

 

[H00t]

Here's the thing. I can tell from watching the game that Brockman was one stand out, but when you look at the raw stats you'd think "Yeah, he had a decent game" not that he was best on ground. I want to know exactly how Champion Data calculate that rating.

I have a feeling it's the 93% DE from disposals mostly in the front half, the high level of score involvements and goal assists per disposal, the 3 tackles I50. It would explain why Cyril was always one of Champion Data's darlings. Brocky had a very Cyril like game.

Champion data seem to definitely put a greater focus on what a player does with the ball rather than how many times they win it.

The one I remember from round 1 was Junior Rioli getting 21 or so rating and JHF getting 18. When JHF had more goal assists and score involvements. So there’s definitely some extra ingredients highly weighted in there.

 

[H00t]

The one most pleasing thing of the game. Was we did to the eagles what teams have been doing to us.

We got them on the turnover. Scored at least 10 goals from our defensive half while keeping them to zero goals from theirs. Compared to us normally being the one struggling to move the ball.

We made them collapse in on the ball at the stoppage so once it spilled out we had runners ready to go.

But most importantly every time the ball went to a 50-50 contest we won it.

 

[KermitJagger]

Champion data seem to definitely put a greater focus on what a player does with the ball rather than how many times they win it.

The one I remember from round 1 was Junior Rioli getting 21 or so rating and JHF getting 18. When JHF had more goal assists and score involvements. So there’s definitely some extra ingredients highly weighted in there.

I think the other thing is that they penalise heavier than Supercoach or Fantasy too, Mitch Lewis was enormous in his first game back but his rating was woeful.

 

[H00t]

I think the other thing is that they penalise heavier than Supercoach or Fantasy too, Mitch Lewis was enormous in his first game back but his rating was woeful.

I think this is definitely a big part of it. It was probably their solution to whoever has the most disposals has the highest rating problem.

Even yesterdays game, I would have thought Lewis would have a much higher rating than he did. But his 62% disposal efficiency was likely working against him.

 

[TheFourPillars]

if we did not, we would have gone into draft with one less pick(pick 65 from memory). We thought we needed that steak knives in any trade.

Funnily I think we didn't use it and passed on our last pick. Don't think we maximised the trades with Lions. We left stuff on table( which suggests we need better personnel in club)

We had to delist someone and pick them back. Seamus was the one lowest on pecking order then.


Even at Box hill he wasn't this dominant. Some players play even better at AFL level.

This is incorrect. Seamus was moved to the backline last year which was filled with injury and no pre season. His confidence was down and his body wasn't quite right.

This year he has done everything in pre season. Looked sharp and played very well at Box hill in this role in the first couple of games of the season. So much so there were calls for his inclusion to the AFL side including from me because he was playing so well. He has deserved his spot and is showing what he can do. Really proud of him. As a player he has done it the hard way

 

[extractasam]

The move to the backline seemed to make all the difference to Mitchell. Just about all the draft hype seemed right all of a sudden - pace, composure, touch, & the rest.

On SM-G973F using BigFooty.com mobile app

How good has it been to get something out of what felt like nothing - just when we least expected it.

His bounce off half back has turned out to be the perfect role for him, real physical bastard too