List Mgmt. Our rucks

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lewdogs

lewdogs

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Jun 4, 2008
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I just read an article by Wayne Carey saying we're in danger of becoming a middling side. One interesting point I took from it is Wayne says Ryder and Hill are our most important players and we are in danger because Ryder is old...

Now I know Wayne probably doesn't spend a lot of time on us so it's understandable, but I think a much more interesting discussion is whether we are best served by keeping Ryder going forward.

I absolutely love Paddy and everything he has brought to the club. His performance in the finals win against Western Bulldogs was the stuff of legend. But I'm seeing a bit of a trend emerge with his performance lately and that is he dominates the ruck contests but struggles to get his hands on the ball.

We have just signed up Rowan Marshall to a long-term contract. At the moment he predominantly plays forward-ruck except when Paddy is out and he takes the main duties. When he is the main ruck he consistently dominates his opponent around the ground.

On top of that we unearthed a gun forward-ruck in Jack Hayes who unfortunately did his ACL. Now I know many will disagree with this but I think if Hayes were fit there'd be an argument right now to go with Marshall-Hayes and leave Paddy out.

I wonder if the best thing going forward in 2023 is for Marshall to take over as the main ruckman. If Paddy is keen to stay in Melbourne I'd employ him as the ruck coach to pass on his craft to Marshall, Hayes, Heath et al. But I just don't know if we can keep playing with a ruckman who usually gets around 7 possessions a game.

With this in mind, I would love us to make finals this year and give Paddy one last amazing experience in the red white and black.
 
lewdogs said:
I just read an article by Wayne Carey saying we're in danger of becoming a middling side. One interesting point I took from it is Wayne says Ryder and Hill are our most important players and we are in danger because Ryder is old...

Now I know Wayne probably doesn't spend a lot of time on us so it's understandable, but I think a much more interesting discussion is whether we are best served by keeping Ryder going forward.

I absolutely love Paddy and everything he has brought to the club. His performance in the finals win against Western Bulldogs was the stuff of legend. But I'm seeing a bit of a trend emerge with his performance lately and that is he dominates the ruck contests but struggles to get his hands on the ball.

We have just signed up Rowan Marshall to a long-term contract. At the moment he predominantly plays forward-ruck except when Paddy is out and he takes the main duties. When he is the main ruck he consistently dominates his opponent around the ground.

On top of that we unearthed a gun forward-ruck in Jack Hayes who unfortunately did his ACL. Now I know many will disagree with this but I think if Hayes were fit there'd be an argument right now to go with Marshall-Hayes and leave Paddy out.

I wonder if the best thing going forward in 2023 is for Marshall to take over as the main ruckman. If Paddy is keen to stay in Melbourne I'd employ him as the ruck coach to pass on his craft to Marshall, Hayes, Heath et al. But I just don't know if we can keep playing with a ruckman who usually gets around 7 possessions a game.

With this in mind, I would love us to make finals this year and give Paddy one last amazing experience in the red white and black.
Click to expand...
I think the club looked forward towards the end of last season by trying to get Xerri from NM, that fell over i don't think Ryder will get another contract which means we're on the hunt for another ruckman & maybe Hayes from PA or Williams from WC could be in sight Rowan will be the number 1 just need a good number 2.
 
lewdogs said:
On top of that we unearthed a gun forward-ruck in Jack Hayes who unfortunately did his ACL. Now I know many will disagree with this but I think if Hayes were fit there'd be an argument right now to go with Marshall-Hayes and leave Paddy out.

I wonder if the best thing going forward in 2023 is for Marshall to take over as the main ruckman. If Paddy is keen to stay in Melbourne I'd employ him as the ruck coach to pass on his craft to Marshall, Hayes, Heath et al. But I just don't know if we can keep playing with a ruckman who usually gets around 7 possessions a game.

With this in mind, I would love us to make finals this year and give Paddy one last amazing experience in the red white and black.
Click to expand...
I completely agree with you. Ryder has had 1-2 stand out performances this year - his Geelong performance especially - but most of his games he is having minimal influence and is keeping Marshall out from his best position. And based off the small sample size earlier in the year, I also think Hayes would have overtaken Ryder this year.

As great as Ryder is, I do think it is best if he retires this year. We are wasting Marshall best years playing him up forward.
 

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We would need to rest him regularly to get the best out of him. His best is still bloody good but he can't deliver that every week and after 3-4 weeks in a row, he starts to struggle.

I'm not sure that approach is best for the development of the team in the long run so I would tend to agree we need to move on from him next year. Very hard to say that as he's almost become my favorite player since he joined us. Love the guy because he plays with the passion of someone who really cares for the club and his teammates.
 
Great topic. With the return of Hayes, should Paddy even be in the 22? I think not unfortunately.

The problem is if we retire him we end up putting all our eggs in the Marshall basket with TC not good enough and Moose not ready.
So we should try and kep Paddy next year but advise him he'll be forward at Sandy most of the time. Paddy will make up his own mind after that.
 
What Paddy has going for his is he still instils fear in the opposition, a trait not many of our players have. We've seen Marshall take on the likes of Gawn, Grundy etc over the last few years and he's just not up to it - When Ryder's in the side against these A-graders we get a much more competitive effort in the ruck.

I think having Hayes as a genuine Utility who can pinch hit in the middle and at either end of the ground is a better option than him being the number 2 ruck. I think we're still in the market for another ruckman, from Xerri last year to Draper before that, we're identifying targets and Ryder will probably still command a spot until we land one.
 
g_TRAIN said:
We would need to rest him regularly to get the best out of him. His best is still bloody good but he can't deliver that every week and after 3-4 weeks in a row, he starts to struggle.

I'm not sure that approach is best for the development of the team in the long run so I would tend to agree we need to move on from him next year. Very hard to say that as he's almost become my favorite player since he joined us. Love the guy because he plays with the passion of someone who really cares for the club and his teammates.
Click to expand...

I agree that we need to be resting him regularly. I'd say no interstate games for Paddy and no more than 3 consecutive weeks without a rest. The coaches don't want to risk resting him after he has a good game and helps us get over the line, but the only way he's at his best is if he's fresh.

I'd keep him around for another season with the intention of him playing around 14 games.
 
mad-saint-guy said:
I'd keep him around for another season with the intention of him playing around 14 games.
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I thought that too initially, but no longer sure.
Roma plays better alone and he is the future.
 
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Diehard Saint said:
I thought that too initially, but no longer sure.
Roma plays better alone and he is the future.
Click to expand...

Yes time to move on.

Marshall needs to play No 1 ruck now so that he can keep improving. Marshall is ok resting forward, but is not good enough to play mainly a key forward where he simply does not lead enough.

Paddy gets some brilliant taps that look great on the highlight reel, but mainly he is pretty ineffective with our midfield. Plus Paddy wins little of the ball.
Our mids do better with Marshall's stronger body and ability to also win clearances.

We need to move on and turn to players like Marshall who can be our future.

We need a true mobile big forward to pair with King. Possibly Hayes.
 
mad-saint-guy said:
I'd keep him around for another season with the intention of him playing around 14 games.
Click to expand...

Why?

We are going nowhere with the list and team balance like it currently is. You might as well bring Frawley back again as well.


We need to face up to the fact that our list needs some major changes, and that next year will not be "our year" either. BUT that it could be our year within several years if we can get our act into gear both list and coaching wise.

Ryder as No 1, and Marshall as No 2 is actually dragging us down now.
 
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Klaatu said:
I think the club looked forward towards the end of last season by trying to get Xerri from NM, that fell over i don't think Ryder will get another contract which means we're on the hunt for another ruckman & maybe Hayes from PA or Williams from WC could be in sight Rowan will be the number 1 just need a good number 2.
Click to expand...
I love Ryder but I hope he retires at the end of this year.
 

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Early in the year you wouldn't of dreamed of it, but agree Ryder looks tired now. Perhaps he simply can't play out a full season even with breaks now. Marshall is the way forward.

I'd even consider having Ryder play mostly forward for the rest of the year and then next year we have Hayes back to take that role. Club obviously doesn't rate Campbell either so replace him with another ruck/forward type and hopefully another year of development and more ruck time at Sandy helps Heath improve.
 
I’ve loved Ryders stint at the saints, but I think Father Time is catching up with him.
This Achilles has been bothering him all year, not letting him play his best, seems immobile at times.

Happy for him to go again next year if he can get his body right.
But might be best served to move Rowan into the ruck and recruit a big power forward to compliment King. I think a Tom MacDonald type would be a great foil for King.
Someone who will throw their weight around.
Not sure where to find such a player though.
 
St Kilda Death said:
I’ve loved Ryders stint at the saints, but I think Father Time is catching up with him.
This Achilles has been bothering him all year, not letting him play his best, seems immobile at times.

Happy for him to go again next year if he can get his body right.
But might be best served to move Rowan into the ruck and recruit a big power forward to compliment King. I think a Tom MacDonald type would be a great foil for King.
Someone who will throw their weight around.
Not sure where to find such a player though.
Click to expand...
Assuming Tom MacDonald is not available, which Tom McDonald type?
 
If Paddy doesn't play on I do hope he sticks around the club in some capacity, he's just a special bloke to have around. Either in the cultural space or in a coaching capacity.

Marshall is good enough for the #1 spot obviously but he does need backup. The question is, does having another 'primary' ruckman in the squad stifle him a bit? Without Hayes being available I don't feel we have that ideal pinch-hitter on the list. Battle did an admirable job earlier this season out of necessity but I don't think it's ideal to be using him in that role on a regular basis. Wood or Membrey might be the go, just to have someone with a bit of size competing and able to follow up.

Campbell in that mature depth role is probably the best we've seen in years after a few different mature pickups - he's good enough to keep around for a few seasons as he can defnitely contribute. He's definitely earned a recall if we opt to go with 2 main rucks without Paddy.

Bullish on Heath as well. Has had some very good games for Sandy with some mixed results when playing primarily forward.

Going forward, I wouldn't mind aiming for another young tall who can play FWD/Ruck, ideally someone who could come straight in but has a few years left in the tank.
 
I think we need to move past a game plan with two specialist rucks in one team because it's rare that they are going to meet the following criteria often enough:
Both be fit
Both be in form in the ruck
Both be in form as resting forwards
at the same time.

It's been great when it's worked but just seems to lead to inconsistencies as time goes on. And we have enough ups and downs in the team as it is.
 
Paddy wants to play on, but the club definitely needs to look at bringing in another ruckman who is ready to play.

I dont know where that player comes from as after watching Xerri play, he is not the answer. Heath is at least another year away & Hayes is just a pinch hitter.

There is not a huge abundance of ruckman, so the recruiters will have to really earn ther keep finding one. The ideal player is a ruckman who can also play forward, but they are even more rare.
 
Atomboy said:
Goldstein for a year would give Marshall some support and allow Heath time to develop.
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Goldstein has said he wants to be a single club player and North with their lack of experince would be stupid not to resign him.

Perhaps Goldstein would be an option particularly if Ryder retires. Even then we will still need to find another, as most clubs have 4 x ruckman on their list in differing stages of development.

As good as Campbell has been for Sandringham, we need to find a younger ruckman who is capable of playing or developing into an AFL ruckman.
 
SteeleSaints said:
Paddy wants to play on, but the club definitely needs to look at bringing in another ruckman who is ready to play.

I dont know where that player comes from as after watching Xerri play, he is not the answer. Heath is at least another year away & Hayes is just a pinch hitter.

There is not a huge abundance of ruckman, so the recruiters will have to really earn ther keep finding one.
Click to expand...

I would also hope that we don't want to blow an early draft pick on one.
I don't see the point on retiring Paddy and bringing in Goldstein. Same same.

As far as getting someone ready to play, Campbell is not the lowest of the low. There have been worse ruckmen play AFL this season.

It'll be a dilemma if someone like Harry Lemmy is still available for our first pick in the draft.
 
stfan said:
Yes time to move on.

Marshall needs to play No 1 ruck now so that he can keep improving. Marshall is ok resting forward, but is not good enough to play mainly a key forward where he simply does not lead enough.

Paddy gets some brilliant taps that look great on the highlight reel, but mainly he is pretty ineffective with our midfield. Plus Paddy wins little of the ball.
Our mids do better with Marshall's stronger body and ability to also win clearances.

We need to move on and turn to players like Marshall who can be our future.

We need a true mobile big forward to pair with King. Possibly Hayes.
Click to expand...
Hayes is ok in the ruck but cant find the ball around the ground and couldn't mark his undies
 
Rucks are the least of my concerns with our list moving forward.

Marshall has proven he can hold down the no1 ruck spot and Hayes is more than a handy forward/pinch hitting in the ruck.

Add to that Heath developing nicely in the 2's and a journeyman ruckman also in the 2's like a Campbell to add a big body for our developing mids.
 
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