O/T - The New Hands in the Back Rule

[Cap]

This is the problem I have with it. The natural reaction for any human is when you are standing under a ball, someone backs into you, you are going to put your hands up to protect yourself.

What do you expect people to do Cappy? stand there with their arms by their side while someone cannons into them?

the natural reaction of a small person in the way of a large person its to get out of the way.... they seemed to have solved that problem fairly easily. other things in sport aren't natural - bloody hell your into gymnastics and half the stuff they do seems as natural as a 8 legged donkey .

its called adapting....

 

[Alex99]

the natural reaction of a small person in the way of a large person its to get out of the way.... they seemed to have solved that problem fairly easily. other things in sport aren't natural - bloody hell your into gymnastics and half the stuff they do seems as natural as a 8 legged donkey .

its called adapting....

Exactly

Exactly

In cricket over the last 15 year the interpretation of the LBW rule has basically changed because of spin bowling. In the 1970s and 1980s a batter could just kick the ball out of the rough and not expect to get out (unless it was blatantly plum). In the 1990’s and 2000 with the proficient spin bowling of Shane Warne and Muttiah Muralitharan the batter has been forced to learn how to defend with his bat.


Before Warne came onto the cricket scene and reinvented the art of spin bowling it was totally unexpected that a spin bowler could turn the ball in angles that he did. The batter could just use his pads and kick the ball out of the way because the umpires was not going to give it out because they didn’t expect the ball to spin as much as it did and hit the stumps. Once Warne showed how gifted he was with the ball and how much turn he could give the ball, batters had to learn how to use there bats rather than there pads.

During the last Ashes series against the English side, Kevin Peterson started using his bat by playing the ball out in front of his pads to avoid the spin Warne could put on the ball and to take the chance of getting out LBW. Over the years he has learnt to adapt to how the umpires were interpreting the LBW law and changed his batting technique. So as Caps said it’s all about adapting to how the sport in being interpreted by the officials of that sport.

If the hands in the back rule stays in, either a player will adapt to the rule or get a truck load of free kick given against him.

 

[NikkiNoo]

the natural reaction of a small person in the way of a large person its to get out of the way.... they seemed to have solved that problem fairly easily. other things in sport aren't natural - bloody hell your into gymnastics and half the stuff they do seems as natural as a 8 legged donkey .

its called adapting....

So players who got to the space first and anticipated the fall of the ball better will just need to get out of the way of those guys that can't judge correctly and are a little late getting to the contest. That's your idea of adapting? Oh and small person get out of the way of a large person? Tell that to Byron and Biggles

Gymnastics is natural, it's just taking the body to it's limits

 

[Alex99]

So players who got to the space first and anticipated the fall of the ball better will just need to get out of the way of those guys that can't judge correctly and are a little late getting to the contest. That's your idea of adapting? Oh and small person get out of the way of a large person? Tell that to Byron and Biggles

Gymnastics is natural, it's just taking the body to it's limits

From my understanding of the rule, any player is allowed to use his hips, shoulder or forearm to defend his ground; just not hands.

If a bigger player had miss read the flight of the ball and backs into me and I raise my forearm or turn and defend my ground by using my hip that is not a free kick.

 

[AAMI]

The rule would best belong in another sport like gymnastics or netball.

Capitalist, I'll give you one point. The players will have to adapt to this intrepretation because Demetriou and his croonies will be too stubborn to do a backflip on this one.

Unfortunately, it looks like it is here to stay and the majority of us will be moaning about it every week from here on in.

 

[Cap]

So players who got to the space first and anticipated the fall of the ball better will just need to get out of the way of those guys that can't judge correctly and are a little late getting to the contest. That's your idea of adapting? Oh and small person get out of the way of a large person? Tell that to Byron and Biggles
Gymnastics is natural, it's just taking the body to it's limits

you missed my point then you brushed on it !! we were talking about natural reactions to things - if a bigger bloke than me comes running at me with the intent to knock me over i get out of the way, however in football i try to knock him over........

so people adapt, Byron and Biggles (who the hell is that? ) have adapted to take on people bigger than then for the sake of football.

The rule would best belong in another sport like gymnastics or netball.

Capitalist, I'll give you one point. The players will have to adapt to this intrepretation because Demetriou and his croonies will be too stubborn to do a backflip on this one.

Unfortunately, it looks like it is here to stay and the majority of us will be moaning about it every week from here on in.

read the rule, it never changed - it is simply being inforced. why waste your energy getting annoyed at the umpires and get annoyed at the players for doing the wrong thing by the rules of the game.

 

[AAMI]

read the rule, it never changed - it is simply being inforced. why waste your energy getting annoyed at the umpires and get annoyed at the players for doing the wrong thing by the rules of the game.

I agree that the rulebook has not changed but it is not being inforced as the rule reads.

As I've said before, the rulebook actually goes AGAINST this strict and ridiculously over officious interpretation. There is no mention that placing your hands on the back should be a free, only if there is a push.

If we went back to not penalising placing hands on the back but only penalising a push, we would be getting back to what is actually in the rulebook.

If they are going to persist with this interpretation, they are going to have to change the rulebook. You would have thought they would have done that before this season!

 

[Cap]

I agree that the rulebook has not changed but it is not being inforced as the rule reads.

As I've said before, the rulebook actually goes AGAINST this strict and ridiculously over officious interpretation. There is no mention that placing your hands on the back should be a free, only if there is a push.

If we went back to not penalising placing hands on the back but only penalising a push, we would be getting back to what is actually in the rulebook.

If they are going to persist with this interpretation, they are going to have to change the rulebook. You would have thought they would have done that before this season!

imagine if they did go down that path - you would need 1000 replays to work out if its a push or not

 

[marvin]

imagine if they did go down that path - you would need 1000 replays to work out if its a push or not

Considering the old interpretation worked pretty well for many years without 1000 replays per incident, I doubt it.

Question for you Cappy - visualise for a second that you are stationary under an incoming ball waiting to mark it. Where are your hands?

 

[Cap]

Considering the old interpretation worked pretty well for many years without 1000 replays per incident, I doubt it.

Question for you Cappy - visualise for a second that you are stationary under an incoming ball waiting to mark it. Where are your hands?

probably going to mark the ball....

 

[marvin]

probably going to mark the ball....

Where are your hands if you are going to mark the ball. (Assume the ball is still half way to getting to you).

By your sides?
Over your head?
In front of your chest?
Tucked behind your back?

 

[Cap]

Where are your hands if you are going to mark the ball. (Assume the ball is still half way to getting to you).

By your sides?
Over your head?
In front of your chest?
Tucked behind your back?

going from memory I was a hands in the air type of guy (to my side)

I was a full back, so my hands were never anywhere near the back of my opponent, learnt that early...

 

[NikkiNoo]

you missed my point then you brushed on it !! we were talking about natural reactions to things - if a bigger bloke than me comes running at me with the intent to knock me over i get out of the way, however in football i try to knock him over........

so people adapt, Byron and Biggles (who the hell is that? ) have adapted to take on people bigger than then for the sake of football.

Biggles = Biglands. Now think back to a certain final in 2005 and a legitimate bump that occured between a smaller bloke (byron) and a much larger fellow (biglands)..... It's all about a centre of gravity and the ability to know how to use it.

You're explanation is sounding like a Jericho move on the football field, and we all know how much value we place on players being strong at the contest and not shirking the hard stuff. I will try and explain better my thoughts

1. Ball kicked by team A into their forward line.
2. Defender from team B sees it coming and can tell where the ball is going to land so is gets to that spot first.
3. Forward from team A led too far forward so starts to back back watching the ball.
4. Defender from team B stands their ground as they got their first.

Ok here is my question - when the forward backs into the defender what should the defender do? According to you he should step out of the way to allow that nice forward to mark the ball. Shouldn't the defender be allowed to protect themselves and the space that they are occupying? isn't the natural and possibly the only way that the defender can protect that space and the fall of the ball is with their hands or their forearm on the forward? You don't want to allow the body contact, as that can knock you off the space and not allow you to contest the ball.

Isn't football a contact sport that contains contests?

 

[Cap]

Biggles = Biglands. Now think back to a certain final in 2005 and a legitimate bump that occured between a smaller bloke (byron) and a much larger fellow (biglands)..... It's all about a centre of gravity and the ability to know how to use it.

You're explanation is sounding like a Jericho move on the football field, and we all know how much value we place on players being strong at the contest and not shirking the hard stuff. I will try and explain better my thoughts

1. Ball kicked by team A into their forward line.
2. Defender from team B sees it coming and can tell where the ball is going to land so is gets to that spot first.
3. Forward from team A led too far forward so starts to back back watching the ball.
4. Defender from team B stands their ground as they got their first.

Ok here is my question - when the forward backs into the defender what should the defender do? According to you he should step out of the way to allow that nice forward to mark the ball. Shouldn't the defender be allowed to protect themselves and the space that they are occupying? isn't the natural and possibly the only way that the defender can protect that space and the fall of the ball is with their hands or their forearm on the forward? You don't want to allow the body contact, as that can knock you off the space and not allow you to contest the ball.

Isn't football a contact sport that contains contests?

what ? when did I say he was should get out of the way ???

Yes the defender should stand his ground, he has an entire body to use, don't use your hands - its not that difficult....

saying that there used to be a rule which protected player B, but i'm not sure if that exists anymore

 

[marvin]

going from memory I was a hands in the air type of guy (to my side)

I was a full back, so my hands were never anywhere near the back of my opponent, learnt that early...

I'm not talking about when you've got your opponent hanging off you, I'm talking about when you are standing all by yourself (you think) and you are waiting to mark it. It's particularly so if you are camped under a Simon Tregenza style lob kick.

It's a rhetorical question in a way, because I tried it with a few other dads at an Auskick clinic the other day while we were arguing this question. To a man, every person who stood waiting for a mark has their hands somewhere in front of the chest, ready to adapt to whether it's going to be an overhead grab, a chest mark or something in between by the time the ball gets there.

What it means, also inevitably, is that the first point of contact between you, camped under the footy, and an opponent who you are not aware of but takes front position, is going to be your hands and their body. Why? Because your hands are the furthest extremity of your body at this time. It doesn't mean you push them, but it's the first point of contact.

Now, if you are aware early enough, sure, you can turn your body to use your hip, your body, your shoulder, whatever. If it's a high ball, and remembering your vertical peripheral vision is not as good as your horizontal peripheral vision, there's every chance that you don't have the awareness of the opponent in time to make that adjustment, so contact between your hands and your opponent is almost not preventable.

Now, I accept that when we are talking about AFL footballers as opposed to retired schoolyard hacks like me we are talking about greater adaptation and peripheral vision than I can possibly realise. However, having seen umpire after umpire screw up this year ("your hands were all over his number" when they were on a hip, or not even touching), I cannot accept that the current interpretation of contact or no contact makes it any easier for the umps than determining if there was a push or not a push.

That's why the interpretation stinks.

FWIW, I was a full back too, so I share your pain.

 

[ams4crows]

so if I used my Fore Arm to withhold my oppositon player backing back into me that is totaly legal cos....
A I'm not using by hand (open palm)

B. I'm not pushing just resting

C.......well i don't have a C option but it makes it look better!

 

[King Elvis]

I don't think it's a coincidence that this rule wasn't trialled in the NAB Cup either.

They knew what the reaction would be to it, so they snuck it in the back door.

Disgraceful.