Society/Culture Landlords - What is the point?

[Carringbush2010]

So if you aren't going to put it to use, sell it to somebody who will.

And in the first place, investors shouldn't be allowed to be buying property just to park their cash. < These are not the 'mum and dad' investors. I don't have the numbers, but it's likely the bulk of property investors have 1 or 2 investment properties and aren't greedy aholes,

Yeah I'm talking about foreign investors who are purely in it for the property valuation over time. Obviously there'll be local investors who do this but one could fairly assume that most investors would want their property occupied to make income. They're not investors who just park money in property for the purposes of valuation who can afford to leave them vacant.

I'd also advocate capping private property for short stay rental i:e Air B&B or Stayz.

Also, I'm not aware of the figures but willing to bet that vacant properties that are not short stay properties are extremely low.

 

[barreness]

Should be a law that allows people to squat in unused properties that have been vacant for a certain period of time, with the caveat that they are also responsible for any damages etc when they leave, and that once a signed lease for tenants happens, they have to vacate within a certain time frame.

It happens, s**t you can even rent it out
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10...property-under-squatters-rights-laws/10450462

 

[barreness]

They should look at something like increasing stamp duty for each subsequent property someone buys over and above their PPOR.

eg. first investment property attracts 125% stamp duty, second one 150%, third 175% and so on.

I heard an interesting idea about interest rates on loans. Say reserve bank rate on first home buyers, double on a second home loan, triple on the third etc. Could be applied to various parts of the economy, some kind of govt dept deciding which bits are productive and worthwhile get the low rates

 

[Gralin]

And in the first place, investors shouldn't be allowed to be buying property just to park their cash. < These are not the 'mum and dad' investors, who make up the bulk of property investors.

Where you getting your numbers from?

Yeah I'm talking about foreign investors who are purely in it for the property valuation over time.

How do you know its foreign investors doing this and not local investors

I'd also advocate capping private property for short stay rental i:e Air B&B or Stayz.

this is a large problem, 48k properties in Victoria alone last I saw, if they were built for this purpose I have no real issue

like the holiday cabins, apartments in tourist areas that weren't rental stock

but rental stock being moved to short stay is a real issue

Also, I'm not aware of the figures but willing to bet that vacant properties are extremely low.

based on?



10% of private dwellings were vacant on census night, 30% of properties were rentals, that number has climbed since then

Housing: Census, 2021

Information on housing type and housing costs

www.abs.gov.au

 

[leon123]

Also, I'm not aware of the figures but willing to bet that vacant properties are extremely low.

That is correct, the number of genuine vacant properties are extremely low, and when vacant, typical there is a reason.ie being sold renovation, move to nursing homes etc

 

[Carringbush2010]

That is correct, the number of genuine vacant properties are extremely low, and when vacant, typical there is a reason.ie being sold renovation, move to nursing homes etc

I could be wrong, if you look at Gralins post.

I'll rephrase, willing to bet that available vacant properties for the purposes of rent would be extremely low.

 

[leon123]

View attachment 1957164

10% of private dwellings were vacant on census night, 30% of properties were rentals, that number has climbed since then

Housing: Census, 2021

Information on housing type and housing costs

www.abs.gov.au

Please look up census definition of an unoccupied dwelling for example:

I was at my sisters house that night, the dwelling is counted as unoccupied.

in 2016, the previous census unoccupied dwellings was about 11% nationally (10% 2021) a lot has changed since October 2021 - OS migration, corona, decreasing household sizes and interest rate increases.

There is a thing (like unemployment) called a natural rate of occupancy - it is nearly impossible to have 100% occupancy for many and varied reasons - about 10% is understood to be the natural rate of unoccupied dwellings.

Rental vacancy - probably the measure people think about and more apt to the discussion - it is around 1 to 1.5% nationally

 

[Gralin]

Please look up census definition of an unoccupied dwelling for example:

I was at my sisters house that night, the dwelling is counted as unoccupied.

in 2016, the previous census unoccupied dwellings was about 11% nationally (10% 2021) a lot has changed since October 2021 - OS migration, corona, decreasing household sizes and interest rate increases.

There is a thing (like unemployment) called a natural rate of occupancy - it is nearly impossible to have 100% occupancy for many and varied reasons - about 10% is understood to be the natural rate of unoccupied dwellings.

Rental vacancy - probably the measure people think about and more apt to the discussion - it is around 1 to 1.5% nationally

I am aware of how the census works

there are a lot of holiday homes in that 1m vacant properties, a lot of short stay, yes places that were for sale or for lease as well as truly vacant properties


rental vacancies is not the same as properties that could be rentals

its how many rentals on the market are empty

and low rental vacancies means we have a problem

are you arguing that we don't have a problem?

there are plenty of houses that people could be living in that are not available for various reasons and a lot of those reasons are greed related

 

[leon123]

I could be wrong, if you look at Gralins post.

I'll rephrase, willing to bet that available vacant properties for the purposes of rent would be extremely low.

No you are not wrong, the stock of available rentals is at all time lows as a rate - like 1/1.5% of rental stock

 

[Gralin]

No you are not wrong, the stock of available rentals is at all time lows as a rate - like 1/1.5% of rental stock

which isn't the same as vacant properties

 

[Gralin]

or properties that could be on the market but aren't

 

[leon123]

I am aware of how the census works

there are a lot of holiday homes in that 1m vacant properties, a lot of short stay, yes places that were for sale or for lease as well as truly vacant properties


rental vacancies is not the same as properties that could be rentals

its how many rentals on the market are empty

and low rental vacancies means we have a problem

are you arguing that we don't have a problem?

there are plenty of houses that people could be living in that are not available for various reasons and a lot of those reasons are greed related

not arguing anything, more stating that highlighting 10% of unoccupied dwellings is significant, when its not, its the 'norm'

As mentioned, the best indicator to use, is rental vacancy rates

 

[Gralin]

not arguing anything, more stating that highlighting 10% of unoccupied dwellings is significant, when its not, its the 'norm'

As mentioned, the best indicator to use, is rental vacancy rates

I didn't say it wasn't the normal rate I suggested the idea that there aren't very many vacant properties is wrong

its also highly dependent on location because it really doesn't matter if there are hundreds of vacant properties if there aren't any people looking for somewhere to live in the same area

but there are tens of thousands of places that could be homes that are not

 

[leon123]

there are plenty of houses that people could be living in that are not available for various reasons and a lot of those reasons are greed related

I would be genuinely interested in what these properties are and what sort of estimates you are talking about.

There are some (not a huge number) owned by OS people to park wealth in a safe environment (i.e. Chinese) - they dont rent it, as they are not seeking rental return, just a store of wealth - but we arent talking big numbers

 

[leon123]

I didn't say it wasn't the normal rate I suggested the idea that there aren't very many vacant properties is wrong

its also highly dependent on location because it really doesn't matter if there are hundreds of vacant properties if there aren't any people looking for somewhere to live in the same area

but there are tens of thousands of places that could be homes that are not

I disagree, the vast majority of vacant dwellings there is a valid reason - the vast majority could not be used for housing i.e. made available to rent. Not many households have the luxury of a spare house sitting around with no return or economic purpose

 

[Gralin]

I disagree, the vast majority of vacant dwellings there is a valid reason - the vast majority could not be used for housing i.e. made available to rent. Not many households have the luxury of a spare house sitting around with no return or economic purpose

then I guess you've never heard of holiday houses or short stay accommodation

there are tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of those around the country

the suburb I live in has quite a few actually vacant properties

sometimes they get sold and redeveloped

sometimes they don't

often the money required to make them livable isn't there so they sit on them, same as the vacant blocks you see in suburbs for years

land and house banking is definitely a thing

you might think any of these are valid reasons to have a property vacant but I don't

 

[leon123]

then I guess you've never heard of holiday houses or short stay accommodation

there are tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of those around the country

the suburb I live in has quite a few actually vacant properties

sometimes they get sold and redeveloped

sometimes they don't

often the money required to make them livable isn't there so they sit on them, same as the vacant blocks you see in suburbs for years

land and house banking is definitely a thing

you might think any of these are valid reasons to have a property vacant but I don't

Ok, now understand where you are coming from. Lets take holiday houses, a) we live in a free market; b) there has always been holiday houses - the prevalence of holiday houses has not caused the current rental crisis. Most holiday houses are at holiday spots, not the location of the 'general' market.

Land banking, now we are talking about I assume small retail lots, like say 500sqm? Now that does happen... a little, its not common (typically a vacant lot is 'produced' and immediately follows a dwelling construction), this has been statistically validated across Greater Melbourne (and no Im not sharing a source as its in confidence data).

We are seeing a slowdown though in dwelling construction on vacant lots - not due to land banking, but change in purchase power, banks require more deposit/income - its a borrowing capacity issue - cost of construction has significantly increased as well - compounding the borrowing capacity issue

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Ok, now understand where you are coming from. Lets take holiday houses, a) we live in a free market; b) there has always been holiday houses - the prevalence of holiday houses has not caused the current rental crisis. Most holiday houses are at holiday spots, not the location of the 'general' market.

We don't live in a free market when it comes to property, there are covenants and restrictions affecting what you build and what you can operate on your land Let's not make out we are powerless to do anything about people keeping houses as holiday homes when in a lot of suburbs you can't use certain colours in your façade because the council might say no

And I haven't checked the stats but I'm happy to take a punt that 90% of all AirBnBs in Victoria would be apartments in reasonable proximity to Melbourne's CBD. This is absolutely linked to the shortfall in rentals.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I disagree, the vast majority of vacant dwellings there is a valid reason - the vast majority could not be used for housing i.e. made available to rent. Not many households have the luxury of a spare house sitting around with no return or economic purpose

Yeah there are lots and lots of holiday accommodation that could be made into rental accommodation.

Of course, it's fair speculation that the overwhelming bulk of properties in the country ARE owner occupied or rental, not holiday accommodation.

The issues that could be fixed
-Rental properties that investors turn into short stay accommodation (rare but probably happens)

• Investors who have enough wealth to just park cash in the oz property market, as you've already mentioned. < This shouldn't be allowed imv.
• Developers that make housing estates with caveats that price those houses out of reach for lower middle and lower income people, which is basically every new estate, period.

The much harder to fix:
- Supply, driven by lack of labour to build, the forever rising price of building materials, the forever cost to supply those materials to building sites etc.

But even if you remove all factors that provide incentive for price hikes in the market, properties will still grow in value over time, probably not balloon like it has but none the less property prices have risen steadily over time in the oz market, even before tax incentives / negative gearing etc. came to be.

I see a market for Granny Flats / Micro housing coming to the fore soon if things keep going the way they are, there'll be opportunist developers / entrepreneurs who'll tap into a market that hasn't been tapped into yet.

 

[leon123]

Yeah there are lots and lots of holiday accommodation that could be made into rental accommodation.

Of course, it's fair speculation that the overwhelming bulk of properties in the country ARE owner occupied or rental, not holiday accommodation.

The issues that could be fixed
-Rental properties that investors turn into short stay accommodation (rare but probably happens)

• Investors who have enough wealth to just park cash in the oz property market, as you've already mentioned. < This shouldn't be allowed imv.
• Developers that make housing estates with caveats that price those houses out of reach for lower middle and lower income people, which is basically every new estate, period.

The much harder to fix:
- Supply, driven by lack of labour to build, the forever rising price of building materials, the forever cost to supply those materials to building sites etc.

But even if you remove all factors that provide incentive for price hikes in the market, properties will still grow in value over time, probably not balloon like it has but none the less property prices have risen steadily over time in the oz market, even before tax incentives / negative gearing etc. came to be.

I see a market for Granny Flats / Micro housing coming to the fore soon if things keep going the way they are, there'll be opportunist developers / entrepreneurs who'll tap into a market that hasn't been tapped into yet.

Its all about supply as you have identified towards the end - this is where the solution is and it will take some time.

The Victorian Government has recently introduced legislation to allow 'tiny homes' basically on all existing lots that can accommodate (there are rules, but they are reasonable), most importantly it is a as of right development, meaning no planning permit required - that saves heaps of time and gives certainty. Cant subdivide it, so only available for rental essentially - I hope and believe this will be a strong short-term and sustainable solution, This solution is in the hands of existing property owners.

I would challenge your view re: rich/greedy developer concept. That is the perception - they are just a normal typical business, trying to make a dollar - they are not making a dollar at the moment. Social/affordable housing is the responsibility of State/Federal Govt i.e taxation i.e. us

 

[leon123]

We don't live in a free market when it comes to property, there are covenants and restrictions affecting what you build and what you can operate on your land Let's not make out we are powerless to do anything about people keeping houses as holiday homes when in a lot of suburbs you can't use certain colours in your façade because the council might say no

And I haven't checked the stats but I'm happy to take a punt that 90% of all AirBnBs in Victoria would be apartments in reasonable proximity to Melbourne's CBD. This is absolutely linked to the shortfall in rentals.

Lets take say a more holiday spot, say Airley Beach (whitsundays) and say more locally Torquay.

Would you ban AirBnB's in these localities?, what do you think would be the consequence? Do you think it would mitigate the 'rental crisis'?

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Lets take say a more holiday spot, say Airley Beach (whitsundays) and say more locally Torquay.

Would you ban AirBnB's in these localities?, what do you think would be the consequence? Do you think it would mitigate the 'rental crisis'?

Seems to be a few people that say yes

 

[Gralin]

Lets take say a more holiday spot, say Airley Beach (whitsundays) and say more locally Torquay.

Would you ban AirBnB's in these localities?, what do you think would be the consequence? Do you think it would mitigate the 'rental crisis'?

Lets be clear it's a housing crisis not a rental crisis and decades of policy have got us here

We are getting increasingly concentrated home ownership without regulation to stop that and governments have neglected public housing stock for decades

 

[leon123]

Lets be clear it's a housing crisis not a rental crisis and decades of policy have got us here

We are getting increasingly concentrated home ownership without regulation to stop that and governments have neglected public housing stock for decades

My oath its' a housing crisis, my view look at the big fish solutions, blaming small fish doesnt solve anything.

Yes, decades of local/state and federal policy has got us here and it will take at least a decade to reverse this problem - IF attention focus is undertaken by all levels of government.

Public housing, so sad a demise - such a liberal philosophy - demand subsidisation (rental assistance) rather than supply provision. I personally am a huge believer, but, us tax payers dont like paying tax - but we should - whether thats personal tax, company or resource/rent seeking tax

 

[leon123]

Seems to be a few people that say yes

good luck to them, and some people think essendon will make finals - we all have a view, doesnt make it correct