Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[Strapping Young Lad]

It just is a low rung coaching position. The senior team coaches may or may not go to him for advice, but the senior team is not the development coaches gig. He'll work with some of the players in it - but he's not managing the senior team - the line managers, and 2ic are - overseen by the head coach.

Can you stop talking about things you have no knowledge of?

Andy Collins is one of the most experienced and respected voices at the club that all the coaches lean on. It’s silly that you’re trying to downplay that with assumptions.

 

[sr36]

Can you stop talking about things you have no knowledge of?

Andy Collins is one of the most experienced and respected voices at the club that all the coaches lean on. It’s silly that you’re trying to downplay that with assumptions.

Is it as silly as you trying to upplay it with assumptions.

It's just how coaching panels are structured. It's a promotion from development coach to line coach, because you're managing the the senior team.

Yeah, sometimes people in higher roles utilise the wisdom of those below them and defer to them on areas of expertise. Sometimes they don't. The latter being more common.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Is it as silly as you trying to upplay it with assumptions.

It's just how coaching panels are structured. It's a promotion from development coach to line coach, because you're managing the the senior team.

Yeah, sometimes people in higher roles utilise the wisdom of those below them and defer to them on areas of expertise. Sometimes they don't. The latter being more common.

Oh yeah, what would I know about Hawthorn.

 

[peetoo]

What is this rubbish?

Consistent though

 

[sr36]

Oh yeah, what would I know about Hawthorn.

Yeah I'm sure you're in the inner sanctum...

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Yeah I'm sure you're in the inner sanctum...

Would I even need to be in the inner sanctum to know more than a casual observer?
I know that you’re quite obviously invested in Hawthorn, but do you seriously think you listen, read and breathe Hawthorn like I do?

Get a grip.

 

[sr36]

Would I even need to be in the inner sanctum to know more than a casual observer?
I know that you’re quite obviously invested in Hawthorn, but do you seriously think you listen, read and breathe Hawthorn like I do?

Get a grip.

You'd need to be in the inner sanctum to know that a bloke with a development coach job title is actually operating in a mentor role for the other coaches like you're suggesting. Seems unlikely in this AFL world of ridiculous job titles that he wouldn't get one if he was more than development.

Yeah I do follow matters at Hawthorn. Hawks are always an interesting watch as they don't follow the herd like most clubs do.

I think the unsuccessful previous attempt to reboot with talented guys with injury clouds making them affordable was worth a shot. But this one just looks like a combination of the Bucks succession plan with a bit of bottom out theory thrown in but without the patience to see the bottom out through until there are some stars in place.

Sorry that that seems to rile you so much. But this is the main board. Some aren't going to view the Hawks with the rose coloured glasses that you do.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You'd need to be in the inner sanctum to know that a bloke with a development coach job title is actually operating in a mentor role for the other coaches like you're suggesting. Seems unlikely in this AFL world of ridiculous job titles that he wouldn't get one if he was more than development.

Yeah I do follow matters at Hawthorn. Hawks are always an interesting watch as they don't follow the herd like most clubs do.

I think the unsuccessful previous attempt to reboot with talented guys with injury clouds making them affordable was worth a shot. But this one just looks like a combination of the Bucks succession plan with a bit of bottom out theory thrown in but without the patience to see the bottom out through until there are some stars in place.

Sorry that that seems to rile you so much. But this is the main board. Some aren't going to view the Hawks with the rose coloured glasses that you do.

Rubbish, you would. You’d only need to listen to the numerous interviews the club staff do, pay attention to the news, read club articles, talk to journo’s and be a part of Bigfooty like I am to be aware of who is doing what at the club.

 

[sr36]

Rubbish, you would. You’d only need to listen to the numerous interviews the club staff do, pay attention to the news, read club articles, talk to journo’s and be a part of Bigfooty like I am to be aware of who is doing what at the club.

Your faith in PR, press conferences, puff pieces and bigfooty explains a bit

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Your faith in PR, press conferences, puff pieces and bigfooty explains a bit

What a load of s**t.

Just admit that you don’t have much of a clue of the inner workings of the HFC, nor should you… and be done with it.

 

[sr36]

What a load of s**t.

Just admit that you don’t have much of a clue of the inner workings of the HFC, nor should you… and be done with it.

Of course I don't know about the inner workings of any footy club. I'm not the one claiming I do.

I do know about hierarchies and that development coaching is the first rung on the AFL coaching hierarchy and that the AFL coaching community love a grandiose job title where the Head of Coaching is actually an assistant coach, as are some Directors of...

So when someone citing pr and bigfooty as there sources is adamant that the guy without a grandiose job title is actually an advisor and mentor to all the coaches, I'm extremely skeptical.

 

[TigerTime88]

Feel as though the Hawks need to target or develop some high quality talls.

 

[sr36]

My point was that Ward experiences the same thing despite not being that type, which is why you can’t group them as one. But if you’re thinking Finlay Macrae than I agree but I still find it intriguing with how little he has played and just his role, it changed so much. You’ve also gotta be upfront with youth, if you move them around too much it provides a false sense and makes them not establish themselves, also confidence is key.

But the original point is not grouping them together.

I didn't mean Finn. I'm not confident, but he's a different kettle of fish. A bit of an inbetweenet at this stage. Smart player, but hasn't got the tools for the outside and not the inside ability yet - that's the bit they're hoping will come.

He hasn't been moved around since the new footy department. He gets played inside mid, but his stoppage game isn't there yet. Although this week in the seniors he might get used anywhere.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Of course I don't know about the inner workings of any footy club. I'm not the one claiming I do.

I do know about hierarchies and that development coaching is the first rung on the AFL coaching hierarchy and that the AFL coaching community love a grandiose job title where the Head of Coaching is actually an assistant coach, as are some Directors of...

So when someone citing pr and bigfooty as there sources is adamant that the guy without a grandiose job title is actually an advisor and mentor to all the coaches, I'm extremely skeptical.

Yeah because it’s so hard to believe a bloke with 25+ years of coaching and development chops might be someone that others lean on…. It’s just Pr and Bigfooty!?

 

[sr36]

Yeah because it’s so hard to believe a bloke with 25+ years of coaching and development chops might be someone that others lean on…. It’s just Pr and Bigfooty!?

Have you ever worked in an organisation with people who've previously had loftier jobs

 

[threesixpio]

interesting listening to a short snippet of bolton talking recently.
he was asked something along the lines of what he'd do differently or what learned from his time at Carlton.

Of his 2 points he basically said he underestimated the impact of cutting too hard/too deep on the list cull. He wouldnt cut so hard again. He said it was "professional suicide". His thoughts were you need those senior leaders in the team.

Hearing that, it has direct similarities with Hawthorn. To me they've cut too hard and too deep. I actually think they sort of realised that now, hence bringing back Gunston, but gee just giving away some of their seniors looks a bit crazy now. Having Jaeger O'meara right now would be good if for nothing more than driving training standards and i'm sure they could find a spot for Tom Mitchell!

Don’t miss them. And yes leadership blah blah blah but god almighty I am happy to have our current midfield by comparison

 

[threesixpio]

That would come back on the coach though, would it not?

Last year we were close to top in clearances. Our midfield isn’t amazing but way better than before.

 

[threesixpio]

Is Chol a significant upgrade on Koshistcke?

OMG yes

 

[Vindicater]

OMG yes

He is.

But kind of how like Andrew Phillip was an upgrade on Zac Clarke.

 

[The 747]

Last year we were close to top in clearances. Our midfield isn’t amazing but way better than before.

That's nice, you finished 3rd last.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

All very possible.

However, we're not going to agree on the other side of the coin being possible, as we come from a very different perspective on coaching.

Where you're being critical of of Mitchell for "sooking" after a spray. To me that's on the coaching if it is ongoing. Coaching communities all around the world have shifted from the old style and embraced positive psychology, as it gets results. The days of Barassi and Walls style rants are over in most clubs. The reality is that ego is a massive part of professional sport - and life in general - and heaps of players performance drops from sprays and negatively delivered feedback. If a player responds negatively to a spray or blunt criticism - you don't give them a spray - you give them positive and constructuve feedback.

To me this story and the performance of Tom under different coaches suggests a coach not having the flexibility to adjust his communication for different players and thus not being likely to get the best out of many of his players. Hopefully for you guys he learns. He's reeking of Bucks to me, who really tried and did develop himself as a coach, but was coming from a long way back as the negativity of perfectionism is a big disadvantage for a coach - as was his EQ.

We don’t know what was said at the meeting but Tom complained about it, it was described as a line meeting where his poor performance was highlighted. Which happens to everyone.

 

[Yoda_]

That's nice, you finished 3rd last.

Isn't it cute, they talk about things that don't matter like it does but conveniently forget how s**t they are going

 

[sr36]

We don’t know what was said at the meeting but Tom complained about it, it was described as a line meeting where his poor performance was highlighted. Which happens to everyone.

I'm not talking about the meeting or the podcast .Just the concept of a player sooking it up.

I wasn't impressed by Tom going public with his complaints, but the bit that made my jaw drop was the players entering the change rooms with their rating out of 5 on display. Very old school.

 

[The 747]

Isn't it cute, they talk about things that don't matter like it does but conveniently forget how s**t they are going

Watch out, they're ranked sixth in marks inside 50*. For the team that is struggling with a new forward system apparently.

Bottom 8 for most major stats.

 

[Yoda_]

Watch out, they're ranked sixth in marks inside 50*. For the team that is struggling with a new forward system apparently.

Bottom 8 for most major stats.

premiership points is the stat that most should only give a * about