Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[Strapping Young Lad]

You have 3 months on Fremantle who are competing for the 8. Hawthorn average less games per player than Hawthorn who are competing for the 8.

Hawthorn are the second youngest list in the comp, currently playing without 4 of their first picked spine.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You go back to the same thing and it’s not at all relevant to what was displayed at Hawthorn. Which is the only relevant clause because he produced that on and off field and it was the reason for his departure. I’m a huge advocate of his and fan and most people know this. Most hawthorn fans were sick of me backing him up weekly. But the truths are there to clearly see.

Previous coaches irrelevant as Bolton was the one who singled him out and when he had a sook about it. Which he did on his podcast.

Did well and there’s no doubt he did. Especially in the grand final, which he went against fly and decided to go head to head with Neale. Did it very well but that was his driven decision, was said on podcast also. But in the end he also wasn’t going to be playing midfield for Hawthorn, hence not being good enough.

And the truth is you’re basing it off nothing and trying to blame Sam without any evidence to suggest, support or otherwise back up your claims. They’re empty.

Harvey, not Bolton.

 

[Yoda_]

Hawthorn are the second youngest list in the comp, currently playing without 4 of their first picked spine.

I was talking about lists as you have often made it sound like you have talked about.

The last 3 years Hawks have been in the bottom 4 for age of list. When do they mature ?

 

[Dewyyyyy]

2021 Best and Fairest

2023 Very good year.

What was different in 2022?

If you're not even questioning the way he was managed - it's because you don't want to.

2021 Clarko, played him through the guts and did well. Still worse than he was before his broken leg, and all things brought up about his calling for in bad positioning, butchering the ball by foot. Still had his strengths but weaknesses clear.

2022 he played half forward with mid rotations which showed even more how poor he was outside of just winning contested ball, tackling and skill by hand. There were clear signs that he was done as he wasn’t good enough, he had games like the Geelong upset where he was good but too many where he was a non factor or anchor. Same goes for O’Meara.

The reason he wasn’t a mid in 2022 is because of the clear fact the mids that played there were slow and one paced all similar types. He brought in new types and made it more dynamic. Still didn’t work properly till 2023 when Tom and Jaeger were traded.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Harvey, not Bolton.

Stand corrected. Appreciate it.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I was talking about lists as you have often made it sound like you have talked about.

The last 3 years Hawks have been in the bottom 4 for age of list. When do they mature ?

Do I have to explain how age works?

 

[Yoda_]

Do I have to explain how age works?

No, clearly average needs to be simplified though

 

[sr36]

2021 Clarko, played him through the guts and did well. Still worse than he was before his broken leg, and all things brought up about his calling for in bad positioning, butchering the ball by foot. Still had his strengths but weaknesses clear.

2022 he played half forward with mid rotations which showed even more how poor he was outside of just winning contested ball, tackling and skill by hand. There were clear signs that he was done as he wasn’t good enough, he had games like the Geelong upset where he was good but too many where he was a non factor or anchor. Same goes for O’Meara.

The reason he wasn’t a mid in 2022 is because of the clear fact the mids that played there were slow and one paced all similar types. He brought in new types and made it more dynamic. Still didn’t work properly till 2023 when Tom and Jaeger were traded.

All very possible.

However, we're not going to agree on the other side of the coin being possible, as we come from a very different perspective on coaching.

Where you're being critical of of Mitchell for "sooking" after a spray. To me that's on the coaching if it is ongoing. Coaching communities all around the world have shifted from the old style and embraced positive psychology, as it gets results. The days of Barassi and Walls style rants are over in most clubs. The reality is that ego is a massive part of professional sport - and life in general - and heaps of players performance drops from sprays and negatively delivered feedback. If a player responds negatively to a spray or blunt criticism - you don't give them a spray - you give them positive and constructuve feedback.

To me this story and the performance of Tom under different coaches suggests a coach not having the flexibility to adjust his communication for different players and thus not being likely to get the best out of many of his players. Hopefully for you guys he learns. He's reeking of Bucks to me, who really tried and did develop himself as a coach, but was coming from a long way back as the negativity of perfectionism is a big disadvantage for a coach - as was his EQ.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

18 Months

You will understand

 

[sr36]

18 Months

You will understand

His contract will be up and probably so will time for Tom, unfortunately. I think the medicos will do well to get him through next season in the seniors TBH. He's already at the stage where he has to be close to his physical peak to perform - when that peak drops a bit, he'll struggle big time.

 

[peetoo]

We got a refresh, Tom got a premiership

Win win. But sarcasm think there must be plenty more minutiae to explore about Tom mitchell

 

[SSSSSS]

His contract will be up and probably so will time for Tom, unfortunately. I think the medicos will do well to get him through next season TBH. He's already at the stage where he has to be close to his physical peak to perform - when that peak drops a bit, he'll struggle big time.

He's far beyond his peak physically. I think we even saw it last season as he started to hobble over the line during the home and away season. I don't think his body has 20 games of footy a year in him anymore.

If you can find a way to nurse him through 15 games (maybe a few sub games here and there) and let him go 100% during the finals you will get some good value out of him.

 

[sr36]

He's far beyond his peak physically. I think we even saw it last season as he started to hobble over the line during the home and away season. I don't think his body has 20 games of footy a year in him anymore.

If you can find a way to nurse him through 15 games (maybe a few sub games here and there) and let him go 100% during the finals you will get some good value out of him.

I meant his current peak - not the Brownlow time. Yep, when we went into a big training load to prepare for finals, most of our oldies dipped, but Mitchell the most - he looked cooked. He was grabbing the ball at stoppage and just waiting for the tackle without even moving to get it out. Just no power in the legs.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

His contract will be up and probably so will time for Tom, unfortunately. I think the medicos will do well to get him through next season in the seniors TBH. He's already at the stage where he has to be close to his physical peak to perform - when that peak drops a bit, he'll struggle big time.

It will be a T Adams situation

With a little less class from the player

 

[sr36]

It will be a T Adams situation

With a little less class from the player

So what?

Coaches job is to get the best out of them whilst they're at the club - not to get them to say positive things after they leave. You hope they do, but it's irrelevant.

It's positive psychology to get them to improve and play well, but it's more cut-throat than ever. With all these 7 year contracts going around, there are going to be lots of veterans leaving or getting pushed out who won't always be happy about it.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

So what?

Coaches job is to get the best out of them whilst they're at the club - not to get them to say positive things after they leave. You hope they do, but it's irrelevant.

It's positive psychology to get them to improve and play well, but it's more cut-throat than ever. With all these 7 year contracts going around, there are going to be lots of veterans leaving or getting pushed out who won't always be happy about it.

You just spend the last 10 pages potting S.Mitchell for "not managing player behaviours" and that its his fault that T.Mitchell potted the club when he left

But when Mitchell leaves in 18 months, and he complains that he was played out of position/not given enough CBA's/didnt like the feedback, its irrelevant?

Ok mate

18 Months

You will understand

 

[sr36]

You just spend the last 10 pages potting S.Mitchell for "not managing player behaviours" and that its his fault that T.Mitchell potted the club when he left

But when Mitchell leaves in 18 months, and he complains that he was played out of position/not given enough CBA's/didnt like the feedback, its irrelevant?

Ok mate

18 Months

You will understand

I'm saying that Sam didn't get the best out of Tom and the whole Tom sooked it up because he couldn't take a spray is old school thinking -it's the other way around - it's on the coach to differentiate for different players and use the methods that work for that player - and for most players it isn't a spray - unless all your after is a 5 minute peak of intensity.

In terms of the bolded. I don't care that Adams has inched towards saying that - he's a proud man who gave his all and performed well under Fly. He pretty clearly feels he was demoted and he was being pushed out - fair enough. I think we probably would have tapped him on the shoulder at the end of his contract - he did the smart thing to get a longer contract. And I won't care if Mitchell feels disgruntled and has a whinge if the club calls stumps on him.

He won't actually be played out of position though - there's no way he'll play Mitchell on a flank, when he's no longer good enough for inside mid. We generally use the flanks for damaging specialist flankers with an outside skillset and not the next in line mid, like it used to be.

 

[peetoo]

You're right: "a further hint" is an absolute ...

Hawks have gone the quaddie: inexperienced coach, mainly inexperienced assistants, inexperience leadership group, inexperienced players.

Good luck maximising development.

Ratten and Collins are inexperienced?

 

[sr36]

Ratten and Collins are inexperienced?

Rattens not, I was wrong about him. I thought he was the footy boss and not an assistant. Resume wise, he'd be the ideal 2ic for an inexperienced coach if that's his role. Collins has been out of te system for ages and his previous stints were short.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Rattens not, I was wrong about him. I thought he was the footy boss and not an assistant. Resume wise, he'd be the ideal 2ic for an inexperienced coach if that's his role. Collins has been out of te system for ages and his previous stints were short.

What is this rubbish?

 

[sr36]

What is this rubbish?

Two short AFL gigs and then16 years between AFL gigs.

Obviously heaps of head coaching in lower leagues.

I'm sure he's a good coach, with skills to bring but he's not AFL experienced or necessarily AFL up to date.

Tiges changed the coaching landscape in terms of both game style and player management. A lot has changed since 2005 when he was coaching at the Hawks and it changes slower at lower leagues

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Two short AFL gigs and then16 years between AFL gigs.

Obviously heaps of head coaching in lower leagues.

I'm sure he's a good coach, with skills to bring but he's not AFL experienced or necessarily AFL up to date.

Do you even know what his role is at Hawthorn?

 

[sr36]

Do you even know what his role is at Hawthorn?

I'm not potting him. I just wouldn't consider him an experienced AFL coach. He's probably good at development, which is a low rung coaching position at most clubs. It's where the newbies usually begin. He's unlikely to be a strong voice compared to the head coach and line coaches who are managing the senior team and players.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I'm not potting him. I just wouldn't consider him an experienced AFL coach. He's probably good at development, which is a low rung coaching position at most clubs. It's where the newbies usually begin. He's unlikely to be a strong voice compared to the head coach and line coaches who are managing the senior team and players.

You’re not potting him… but you’re saying a bloke of his ilk is in a low rung position, unlikely to be a strong voice.

Andy Collins probably has more coaching experience than 95% of anyone in the caper, having been involved in and leading AFL, SANFL and VFL programs for over 25 years.

It’s quite ridiculous that you’d suggest that because he’s not been an AFL assistant all of that time that he’s not “AFL experienced” or “up to date”, whatever that means.

 

[sr36]

You’re not potting him… but you’re saying a bloke of his ilk is in a low rung position, unlikely to be a strong voice.

Andy Collins probably has more coaching experience than 95% of anyone in the caper, having been involved in and leading AFL, SANFL and VFL programs for over 25 years.

It’s quite ridiculous that you’d suggest that because he’s not been an AFL assistant all of that time that he’s not “AFL experienced” or “up to date”, whatever that means.

It just is a low rung coaching position. The senior team coaches may or may not go to him for advice, but the senior team is not the development coaches gig. He'll work with some of the players in it - but he's not managing the senior team - the line managers, and 2ic are - overseen by the head coach.