Club Focus Hawthorn 2023

[Chris25]

Data from footywire. To check the draft order see the thread here.

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[Blackhawk42]

Still a bottom 4 midfield (on paper) for mine, but obviously Still young and raw with plenty of upside.

Newcombe aside, I don't see any potential AA midfielder (based on exposed form, well apart from Weddle who is an outstanding prospect)

Dear will take a couple of years in the VFL to develop I would suggest.

I will be more than happy to be proven wrong (and will admit it) but I don't think Hawthorn will make any significant inroads (least in terms of win) next season. Another development year, and that is perfectly okay

Regardless of anything else you've said about us, I don't understand what you don't see in Will Day. It became pretty universal as the season progressed that he's primed to break out and become a genuine A grader. Media and opposition supporters have latched on to him quickly. It's not simply Hawk supporter biased.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

Regardless of anything else you've said about us, I don't understand what you don't see in Will Day. It became pretty universal as the season progressed that he's primed to break out and become a genuine A grader. Media and opposition supporters have latched on to him quickly. It's not simply Hawk supporter biased.

My main knock on Day is his kicking/disposal. Turns the ball over a lot or at least doesn't often kick to Hawthorn's advantage (from what I have seen of him)

Naturally he will get better with that over time and I am not writing him off of eventually being an elite/a grade player.

 

[HeHateMe]

Still a bottom 4 midfield (on paper) for mine, but obviously Still young and raw with plenty of upside.

Newcombe aside, I don't see any potential AA midfielder (based on exposed form, well apart from Weddle who is an outstanding prospect)

Dear will take a couple of years in the VFL to develop I would suggest.

I will be more than happy to be proven wrong (and will admit it) but I don't think Hawthorn will make any significant inroads (least in terms of win) next season. Another development year, and that is perfectly okay

I'm somewhat agree with the last part, we had a few players really come on in 2023, Nash being the best example where he went from fringe utility to an important cog as a genuine big body mid.

You have sold the midfield a bit short overall in the first part but I agree that it will continue to come on but I don't see the next Day, Nash, Duke who is just going to make a quantum leap, the development will be more gradual imo.

Likewise with the fwd and backs, I see gradual improvement from lots of guys but I don't see anyone in particular who will move the needle far enough for us to make a huge leap up the ladder. (Lewis staying injury free maybe)

That being said CJ is obviously a chance as a half back if everything clicks he has that potential, and then you have Wiz and Ginni up forward. When things go right for dynamic types like them it goes really right....

My main knock on Day is his kicking/disposal. Turns the ball over a lot or at least doesn't often kick to Hawthorn's advantage (from what I have seen of him)

Naturally he will get better with that over time and I am not writing him off of eventually being an elite/a grade player.

When he can balance himself his footy smarts and spaceal awareness let's him do some pretty special things by and hand and footy. But at times this season under pressure from the contests he look off balanced alot when disposing of the footy and that's where the miss kicks came into his game. You will find alot of hawks supporters would over look it because we are used to dump kicks from our mids even when balanced, while with day it's his first year as a mid and he was already exceeding expectations.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

I think it’s a bit absurd that you talk about possessions and completely disregard what it is that he’s better at than almost every other ruck in the competition which is winning taps.
Sam has continually spoken about players having a weapon, and ruck-work is clearly Ned’s.

He was third in the comp for win% last I looked, and it’s no surprise that as a consequence we were top 5 for centre clearances in 2023. Without him we’re likely still bottom 8 for clearances.

The list of premiership ruckmen over the last ten years has been presented to you. The worst ruckman on that list was a once-athletic Vardy, who was second fiddle to Lycett and only played because Nic Nac was injured.

The best tap ruckman on that list of Gawn, who is an all-time great. None of the others are renowned for dominating the hitouts, never mind that being their only current strength.

The game today is quicker and players are required to be versatile, which includes rucks. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant, it's proven that rucks in flag teams either offer something around the ground (touches, marks, sitting in holes defensively, physical presence, etc) or have an actual impact up forward.

Reeves lumbers around, doesn't bullock, doesn't sit in holes and take defensive marks, doesn't rest forward and take marks or even really offers a contest, doesn't take chop-out marks from bail-out kicks.

Reeves didn't improve in the non-hitout area of his game from 2022 to 2023, despite playing more and being more experienced.

Now I don't expect he will ever become even a decent ball winner, relative to his position, but he can still improve in the regard.

Where he simply has to improve is with his marking and offering a contest for bail-out kicks, when sitting in a hole and especially when resting forward. He's a lovely set shot at goal, so if he can improve here and clunck a few more marks then he could kick 10+ goals, which would be huge.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

My main knock on Day is his kicking/disposal. Turns the ball over a lot or at least doesn't often kick to Hawthorn's advantage (from what I have seen of him)

Naturally he will get better with that over time and I am not writing him off of eventually being an elite/a grade player.

Day was an excellent kick when he started. It certainly became more shaky as he moved into the midfield, but IMO that's just him adjusting to the pace and being under more pressure.

He's one of the best kicks at the club.

 

[Caligo]

My main knock on Day is his kicking/disposal. Turns the ball over a lot or at least doesn't often kick to Hawthorn's advantage (from what I have seen of him)

Naturally he will get better with that over time and I am not writing him off of eventually being an elite/a grade player.

His kicking efficiency in 2023 as a first choice midfielder was 68 percent, which is above average and places him above similar sorts of mids like Walsh and Josh Kelly.

Is it possible you confused Day with Nash or Worpel?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

The list of premiership ruckmen over the last ten years has been presented to you. The worst ruckman on that list was a once-athletic Vardy, who was second fiddle to Lycett and only played because Nic Nac was injured.

The best tap ruckman on that list of Gawn, who is an all-time great. None of the others are renowned for dominating the hitouts, never mind that being their only current strength.

The game today is quicker and players are required to be versatile, which includes rucks. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant, it's proven that rucks in flag teams either offer something around the ground (touches, marks, sitting in holes defensively, physical presence, etc) or have an actual impact up forward.

Reeves lumbers around, doesn't bullock, doesn't sit in holes and take defensive marks, doesn't rest forward and take marks or even really offers a contest, doesn't take chop-out marks from bail-out kicks.

Reeves didn't improve in the non-hitout area of his game from 2022 to 2023, despite playing more and being more experienced.

Now I don't expect he will ever become even a decent ball winner, relative to his position, but he can still improve in the regard.

Where he simply has to improve is with his marking and offering a contest for bail-out kicks, when sitting in a hole and especially when resting forward. He's a lovely set shot at goal, so if he can improve here and clunck a few more marks then he could kick 10+ goals, which would be huge.

So your argument is that because premiership ruckman have generally not been great at ruckwork, Reeves being very good at ruck work counts against him?

There’s a reason he’s so heavily regarded inside the 4 walls at the club, and by the mids. It’s not because there’s question marks over his future, it’s because they see his weapon which is his ability to give first use to our mids.

 

[Caligo]

So your argument is that because premiership ruckman have generally not been great at ruckwork, Reeves being very good at ruck work counts against him?

There’s a reason he’s so heavily regarded inside the 4 walls at the club, and by the mids. It’s not because there’s question marks over his future, it’s because they see his weapon which is his ability to give first use to our mids.

No, the argument is that flag ruckmen have at least been decent around the ground, and that is an area Reeves struggles in.

But I am not too worried, I think he will keep improving, and I think ruck isn't that big a deal anyway. But I don't think he has absolutely proved himself yet either.

 

[Orange crush]

His kicking efficiency in 2023 as a first choice midfielder was 68 percent, which is above average and places him above similar sorts of mids like Walsh and Josh Kelly.

Is it possible you confused Day with Nash or Worpel?

I love young Will, but he is not the same sort of mid as Josh Kelly

Still think his kicking is pretty good and will improve as he beefs up and handles the physical pressure better

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

No, the argument is that flag ruckmen have at least been decent around the ground, and that is an area Reeves struggles in.

But I am not too worried, I think he will keep improving, and I think ruck isn't that big a deal anyway. But I don't think he has absolutely proved himself yet either.

Another point I meant to make is that Reeves does all of the things that J2S says that he doesn’t, he just doesn’t yet do them to the level or quantity that he would like. That’s all part of the development of a young ruck, and one who was returning from a shoulder reco.

Worth remembering that he toweled up English and was BOG according to our coaches that game doing all those things that he “doesn’t do”.

I expect he’ll come on again in 2024. But as it stands he’s 100% locked in as our Number 1 ruck.

 

[Caligo]

I love young Will, but he is not the same sort of mid as Josh Kelly

Still think his kicking is pretty good and will improve as he beefs up and handles the physical pressure better

No. He isn't the same as Josh Kelly. The kicking difference between them is massive.

In 2023 Day was running at 68 percent by foot, and Kelly was at 59.

Day's overall efficiency is elite.

 

[Caligo]

Another point I meant to make is that Reeves does all of the things that J2S says that he doesn’t, he just doesn’t yet do them to the level or quantity that he would like. That’s all part of the development of a young ruck, and one who was returning from a shoulder reco.

Worth remembering that he toweled up English and was BOG according to our coaches that game doing all those things that he “doesn’t do”.

I expect he’ll come on again in 2024. But as it stands he’s 100% locked in as our Number 1 ruck.

Yep. I have big hopes for him. And his best is dominant. I also use the English game as the model for him at his best. But we need to see that more often, and he needs to do more around the ground, particularly dropping in the hole to make the big grab, Gawn style.

 

[Orange crush]

No. He isn't the same as Josh Kelly. The kicking difference between them is massive.

In 2023 Day was running at 68 percent by foot, and Kelly was at 59.

Day's overall efficiency is elite.

I imagine Day playing a fair bit down back helps his kicking eff…. Again, I think he’s a great young player but his role is very different and his height means he is a different sort of player to Jelly

 

[Caligo]

I imagine Day playing a fair bit down back helps his kicking eff…. Again, I think he’s a great young player but his role is very different and his height means he is a different sort of player to Jelly

They were both inside/outside mids in 2023. They played literally the same role.

 

[Orange crush]

They were both inside/outside mids in 2023. They played literally the same role.

Day played down back quite a bit in a number of games …. And you do realize a label like inside/outside mid in itself doesn’t define the players role? I thought you were better than that

 

[Caligo]

Day played down back quite a bit in a number of games …. And you do realize a label like inside/outside mid in itself doesn’t define the players role? I thought you were better than that

Struggling to find a heat map but they were both predominantly mids in 2023 with time spent on flanks. You are thinking of 2022. Day actually had more clearances and more centre bounce clearances (quite similar though).

 

[Orange crush]

Struggling to find a heat map but they were both predominantly mids in 2023 with time spent on flanks. You are thinking of 2022. Day actually had more clearances and more centre bounce clearances (quite similar though).

Agreed …. But the teams play different systems so the role is different. Maybe I’m wrong but hawks seem to play high possession kick-mark, which should be based and lead to on better kicking eff

Again, I’m a big fan of Day and not disding him …. Just that he plays differently to Jelly

 

[theiaofseed]

Day played down back quite a bit in a number of games …. And you do realize a label like inside/outside mid in itself doesn’t define the players role? I thought you were better than that

He didn't, maybe watch more of the topic you wont to discuss before talking shite.

 

[Orange crush]

He didn't, maybe watch more of the topic you wont to discuss before talking shite.

Mate, I watch most hawks games .. and there were games in which he did spend a fair bit of time down back ... much more than Jelly ever would. But thanks for the advice

 

[theiaofseed]

Mate, I watch most hawks games .. and there were games in which he did spend a fair bit of time down back ... much more than Jelly ever would. But thanks for the advice

You clearly don't, you said Hawthorn play a kick mark style we don't. Hawthorn move the ball by run and carry off the halfback and play on at all chance through the corridor to get through the opposition zones before they can lock down.

Hawthorn were +400 handballs more than the second most, yet bottom 4 for both kicks and marks and top 3 for clangers. All which points to a chaotic playing style that isn't slow and meticulous.

 

[Orange crush]

You clearly don't, you said Hawthorn play a kick mark style we don't. Hawthorn move the ball by run and carry off the halfback and play on at all chance through the corridor to get through the opposition zones before they can lock down.

Hawthorn were +400 handballs more than the second most

Again, mate ... I'm comparing this against Jelly and GWS .... you handball a lot less than we do, and you mark a much higher percentage of kicks than we do ... so in comparison, yeah, more of a kick-mark game

 

[cryptor]

Again, mate ... I'm comparing this against Jelly and GWS .... you handball a lot less than we do, and you mark a much higher percentage of kicks than we do ... so in comparison, yeah, more of a kick-mark game

Hawks averaged 176.5 handballs per game (1st) and GWS averaged 165.9 (2nd) in 2023.

 

[Orange crush]

Hawks averaged 176.5 handballs per game (1st) and GWS averaged 165.9 (2nd) in 2023.

I’m surprised by those raw numbers, cryptor …. I stand corrected

I know we hand balled less in the finals but thought over the season our ave would still be higher

 

[year of the cat]

Despite being a Cats fan, I'll be heading along to a few neutral games next year that feature Watson. Saw him play a bit of school footy this year and he'll be one of the most exciting players to watch for the next decade. Oozes charisma on the field. Hawks fans are in for a treat.

 

[madjoe]

find it funny what people argue over.Day very much played the deep link up man ie back half player marker so you could argue he played back and mid an you'd still be correct. the games siciley missed mid year day looked great as the back half leader.be keen to see how they use him next year.

think ward will be a star and amon was a killer signing, just have question marks over drafting watson. he strikes me as a higgins clone which isn't bad at all but they are crying out for good young talls.i know none at the pick they had and they picked 3 other talls later on but would be gold if they find gold in those picks imo.