Cummins Overrated?

[Gethelred]

I'll tell you one area where Cummins is overrated - taking ten-fers and getting big hauls.

That he's never taken more than 10 wickets in a match, and has only done it twice, with a best of 6/23 and 10/62, is slightly disappointing for a bowler of his calibre.

In fairness, he does have to share a lot of wickets, but he isn't the sort of bowler who rips through line-ups with unplayable spells ala Steyn/Johnson/young Rabada.

Hmmm...

Johnson and Steyn while they didn't play lone hands didn't have two other bowlers with genuine all time strike rates like Hazlewood and Starc. Steyn was cleanly the pick of the bowlers he played with, and when Rabada came into the SA side was putting up superior numbers and tapered off slightly after injury/age robbed him of a little pace.

Cummins doesn't take the new ball, and both Hazlewood (55.55, 21.75 percent) and Starc (48.35, 22.71) take significant percentages of the wickets every game they play. Lyon too averages 23.18 percent of wickets per innings, and when there's only 10 wickets per innings to take and the bowling's so even (and so good) you're going to struggle to take the 10 fors.

Take this week for example. Before Cummins even brought himself on to bowl Hazlewood, Starc and Lyon had between them taken five wickets. This happens a lot.

I think 10 wicket per innings is a poor way to measure a bowler, and a good way to measure a bowling group. Herath - for example - played in an era of weak bowling for his country, and averages 28.98 percent of wickets per innings. Murali might've played with Vaas for a while, but he averaged 38.55 percent of wickets taken every time he bowled. Hell, even looking at Harbhajan (25.4) and Kumble (29.80) and you can see how weak the bowling around them was.

For the sake of argument, observe the following bowling groups:
Warne (27.33), McGrath (24.93), Gillespie (20.05), Kasprowicz (16.57)
Broad (21.49), Anderson (22.49), Swann (25.05)
Stokes (11.85), Ali (17.48), Broad (21.49), Anderson (22.49)
Ambrose (25.11), Bishop (23.89), Walsh (24.14)
Steyn (27.56), Philander (20.29), Morkel (21.16), Tahir (16.56), Kallis (10.37)

When you have uneven bowling lineups, you tend towards having more dominant bowling performances from the good bowlers you've got. When you have even attacks, bowlers share the limelight and the wickets and you don't see those 10 wicket halls.

... all of that is to say that I don't think you can hold Cummins lack of 10 wicket hauls against him in a comparison against someone like Rabada, who started off a superior bowler but tapered off substantially whilst still remaining an excellent quick.

 

[sherb]

I'll tell you one area where Cummins is overrated - taking ten-fers and getting big hauls.

That he's never taken more than 10 wickets in a match, and has only done it twice, with a best of 6/23 and 10/62, is slightly disappointing for a bowler of his calibre.

In fairness, he does have to share a lot of wickets, but he isn't the sort of bowler who rips through line-ups with unplayable spells ala Steyn/Johnson/young Rabada.

Brett Lee took 310 Test wickets and never took 10 in a match, nor did he take more than 5 in an innings.

 

[DaRick]

Brett Lee took 310 Test wickets and never took 10 in a match, nor did he take more than 5 in an innings.

Nobody in their right mind would compare Cummins to Lee in the longer format, though.

 

[sherb]

Nobody in their right mind would compare Cummins to Lee in the longer format, though.

I'm not.

 

[Cmarsh]

Named ICC cricketer of the year.

Onya Patto!

 

[Gethelred]

Back to the wall. Huge deficit facing him when he walks out to bat, what's he do?

You bet he makes his highest test score with the bat.

 

[eth-dog]

The people's captain

 

[MC Bad Genius]

Fair question. Unclear in my mind and I prefer to let players complete their career before bestowing on them the honor of being in my all time team. fwiw:

Simpson
Lawry
Bradman
G.Chappell
Miller/Border
Harvey
Gilchrist
Lindwall/O'Reilly
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

Funky Miller, eh? Brave call, but I like it.

 

[MC Bad Genius]

Back to the wall. Huge deficit facing him when he walks out to bat, what's he do?

You bet he makes his highest test score with the bat.

He has a knack of making a captain's knock lately. Just adds another reason to love him!

 

[Slysh]

Stand up guy, captain, one of our best bowlers of all time, multiple crucial innings with the bat.

Retained the Ashes in England, won a world cup, won a world test championship. Has the stats to match almost anyone.

Could retire tomorrow and be an all time great! We are so blessed to have him.

 

[Boston tiger]

Just another in a long line of great Australian Captains. He’s gone past Ian Chappell as my favourite. A man of his times.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Moving forward, he'll change the perceptions of who could be captain

Bowlers would rarely have been considered previously

 

[dumb]

results kind of speak for themselves. i have the same questions everyone else does over a few tactics but for the most part getting the job done. looks a bit toothless and stubborn when things don't go the aussie's way with the ball, much like ponting post-warne.
test will come if he's still at the helm while the side transitions away from some of the older players.

do love how the pointed questions in interviews are water off a ducks back. could be unflappable, could be a public servant.

 

[RightWingRoo]

Think he made a pretty substantial error declaring behind, especially when he was batting so well and could've got us in front. Pat has got most things right as captain, but ballsed this one up.
2 embarrassing losses in 4 years at our former GABBA fortress now

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Think he made a pretty substantial error declaring behind, especially when he was batting so well and could've got us in front. Pat has got most things right as captain, but ballsed this one up.

Yes, and I'm surprised not much is being said about it. Only the 2nd day of a 5-day Test, and you are declaring while still behind? Only reason to do this is if you are running out of time and trying to manufacture a win.

Far too much is made of the pink ball under lights. In fairness to Cummins, he's not the first captain who has made this mistake and probably won't be the last. Far too much theory about the pink ball which rarely comes to fruition.

 

[Around the Wicket]

I know the Big 3 don't want to miss Tests but there cooked by the 5th Test, a bloke like Morris should be rotating into the squad here and there imo

 

[MC Bad Genius]

I know the Big 3 don't want to miss Tests but there cooked by the 5th Test, a bloke like Morris should be rotating into the squad here and there imo

I actually agree that it would be good to rotate them when required, but I don't think you could say they're cooked. The fingers should surely be pointed at the batters for this loss and not the bowlers. They skittles the Windies for under 200 in the second innings!

 

[melanChronic]

I actually agree that it would be good to rotate them when required, but I don't think you could say they're cooked. The fingers should surely be pointed at the batters for this loss and not the bowlers. They skittles the Windies for under 200 in the second innings!

Also doesn't help when the bats keep getting rolled and relying on the tail to crawl to a respectable total. The bowlers could really do with 1 or 2 innings where they put the feet up for ~2 days rather than coming back to bowl basically every day of the test.

 

[RightWingRoo]

Yes, and I'm surprised not much is being said about it. Only the 2nd day of a 5-day Test, and you are declaring while still behind? Only reason to do this is if you are running out of time and trying to manufacture a win.

Far too much is made of the pink ball under lights. In fairness to Cummins, he's not the first captain who has made this mistake and probably won't be the last. Far too much theory about the pink ball which rarely comes to fruition.

Spot on, the best time to bowl was actually the day session. 5 wickets day 1, 6 wickets day 2 and 6 wickets day 4.

 

[Soggy2112]

I know the Big 3 don't want to miss Tests but there cooked by the 5th Test, a bloke like Morris should be rotating into the squad here and there imo

I’m not sure the bowlers did a lot wrong. There was one partnership and that was it, otherwise they kept it tight and regularly took wickets.

 

[Black Diamond]

Said it in the match thread. Too many dropped catches. The bowlers were ok, and Hazlewood, who the “bring in Morris” crowd wants to replace, was easily our best bowler this series.

 

[icyflakes]

Said it in the match thread. Too many dropped catches. The bowlers were ok, and Hazlewood, who the “bring in Morris” crowd wants to replace, was easily our best bowler this series.

Two from Green who never puts them down, coming back from covid so I'll give him the benefit on those.

 

[DaRick]

Think he made a pretty substantial error declaring behind, especially when he was batting so well and could've got us in front. Pat has got most things right as captain, but ballsed this one up.
2 embarrassing losses in 4 years at our former GABBA fortress now

The ploy actually worked though - they got a wicket under lights.

It was some dumb batting and an extraordinary spell that won WI that game.

 

[PhatBoy]

The ploy actually worked though - they got a wicket under lights.

It was some dumb batting and an extraordinary spell that won WI that game.

It was, but it’s worth remembering and I hope West Indies fans themselves don’t forget the (basically) 150 run stand from 5-64 between a guy in his second match who made no runs on debut and a guy hadn’t passed 50 in 19 test innings and played two shots in Adelaide that would have gotten him dropped in a stronger side. There was a dropped catch in that stand but it was right near the end of it when I think Hodge was telegraphing that he was spent, albeit Da Silva was the first to go.

 

[frankrizzo]

Said it in the match thread. Too many dropped catches. The bowlers were ok, and Hazlewood, who the “bring in Morris” crowd wants to replace, was easily our best bowler this series.

I always find it weird we make a huge deal when visiting side drop a few catches and loses game but we drop 3-4 and lose tight match its not really a talking point, windies fielded better this series and it cost us a series win