Expansion Canberra

[Canberra Pear]

The initial AFL marketing (aka bull****) sold the team as being a Western Sydney team, no mention of Canberra. That's what they were supposed to be, a Western Sydney team.

Now they have no idea what they want to be. As a resident of Western Sydney, I certainly don't regard them as fully representing the area.

What would it take for you to get on board? Would you if they moved all their games to Sydney, or is it too late?

 

[Bjo187]

The initial AFL marketing (aka bull****) sold the team as being a Western Sydney team, no mention of Canberra. That's what they were supposed to be, a Western Sydney team.

Now they have no idea what they want to be. As a resident of Western Sydney, I certainly don't regard them as fully representing the area.

But does the average western sydney person think that? I think you're a rusted on sports fan so look deep into it, the average person on the street with a slight interest wouldn't even realise the club plays out of Canberra, so I don't know if it makes that much difference to gaining support.

 

[sherb]

Here's one of the early AFL marketing brochures about the Giants. Sorry if the image is a bit hard to read, it's the best I could do trying to post it. I can assure you there is no mention of Canberra in this document.

It was going to be Greater Western Sydney's team initially, no doubt. Somewhere along the line the powers that be decided to turn the club into the weird hybrid that it is today.

 

[sherb]

What would it take for you to get on board? Would you if they moved all their games to Sydney, or is it too late?

I'm happy to stick with the Swans as the Sydney team that I support. I'm not that interested in GWS, other than of course watching their games on TV.

I took out a foundation GWS membership, in the anticipation that it would be a club truly representing the area I live in, and despite the disappointment I have kept that going (supporter's level only) - because I want to support the game up here.

 

[sherb]

But does the average western sydney person think that? I think you're a rusted on sports fan so look deep into it, the average person on the street with a slight interest wouldn't even realise the club plays out of Canberra, so I don't know if it makes that much difference to gaining support.

I really don't know.

Some indicators (eg membership) indicate that support is growing, other indicators (eg yesterday's attendance) make you wonder.

 

[Coolangatta]

I really don't know.

Some indicators (eg membership) indicate that support is growing, other indicators (eg yesterday's attendance) make you wonder.

Only way to know for sure I think is get Hawthorn to take over the Canberra market from 2028-32, and give the Giants a solid 5 years of playing all their games in Sydney. If they're still struggling to crack 10k+ crowds, then I would consider moving them to Canberra but I think the AFL will just stick with the Giants playing in Canberra until 2032 and never ever consider moving them from WS so we'll never know.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Here's one of the early AFL marketing brochures about the Giants. Sorry if the image is a bit hard to read, it's the best I could do trying to post it. I can assure you there is no mention of Canberra in this document.

It was going to be Greater Western Sydney's team initially, no doubt. Somewhere along the line the powers that be decided to turn the club into the weird hybrid that it is today.

fair point. But even before the Giants even took the field, there was also an ACT 4 GWS campaign that started at the same time from the Canberra grassroots that resulted in the Giants also becoming our AFL team as well. A couple of links below, although the third is unfortunately behind a paywall

How Coordinate helped bring the GWS Giants to Canberra.

The Greater Western Sydney Giants have made it to their first AFL Grand Final. To celebrate, we thought we’d take a trip down memory lane to when the journey for the GWS Giants was just beginning. In 2010, Coordinate was approached by GWS Giants board member and proud Canberran, Peter Taylor, to...

coordinate.com.au

‘ACT 4 GWS’ looks for one last push | Riotact

‘ACT4GWS’, Canberra’s bid to partner with AFL’s newest franchise, Team GWS, is calling on the Canberra community for one…

the-riotact.com

'Born in Canberra as much as Sydney': Giants fixtures locked in

Australian football: The AFL and ACT government are looking to strike a new deal

www.canberratimes.com.au

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Only way to know for sure I think is get Hawthorn to take over the Canberra market from 2028-32, and give the Giants a solid 5 years of playing all their games in Sydney. If they're still struggling to crack 10k+ crowds, then I would consider moving them to Canberra but I think the AFL will just stick with the Giants playing in Canberra until 2032 and never ever consider moving them from WS so we'll never know.

I don’t think any Melbourne club will play 3 games annually in Canberra. Note that even a financially struggling club like St Kilda decided that it was better to play in Melbourne, rather than play one game in Cairns annually to grow the game. Hawthorn is far richer, will never ever relocate from Melbourne, and most of the impetus for the Launceston games came from Kennet despite the objections of a substantial number of Hawthorn members.

Also, why would the ACT Government and Giants ever agree, given the Giants relationship with Canberra since 2012 (and pre-AFL), and Giants regarding themselves as also being Canberra’s team

 

[Coolangatta]

I don’t think any Melbourne club will play 3 games annually in Canberra. Note that even a financially struggling club like St Kilda decided that it was better to play in Melbourne, rather than play one game in Cairns annually to grow the game. Hawthorn is far richer, will never ever relocate from Melbourne, and most of the impetus for the Launceston games came from Kennet despite the objections of a substantial number of Hawthorn members.

Also, why would the ACT Government and Giants ever agree, given the Giants relationship with Canberra since 2012 (and pre-AFL), and Giants regarding themselves as also being Canberra’s team

I'm aware of all that. I never said anything about Hawthorn relocating, just that the AFL needs to put the Giants truly to the test at some point.

Given no Victorian clubs will relocate and it's extremely unlikely the Giants ever relocate or end the Canberra contract early, then the logical choice given the limited options would be to bring in Canberra as team 20.

Now, with the Giants presumably playing all their games in Sydney from 2033 onwards, I guess they'd just be stuck there in limbo if they aren't flying by then (and they could be).

I wouldn't relocate them to WA, SA, or NT, for the same reasons I wouldn't relocate any club to Tassie: it's a slap in the face to footy heartland zones -- they should always have their own clubs, not scraps from Victoria or the northern states.

If the Giants can't crack Western Sydney after 5 or 10 years of playing there full time, then they should give the Newcastle market a trial and maybe, just maybe move there if they're gaining traction in ways they aren't in WS. That said, I think it's likely that Newcastle gives AFL the finger.

tl;dr the Giants should always be a NSW club, but let's face it, Western Sydney is bigger than anywhere else so I would say they will fight tooth and nail to stay there and not reinvent themselves in Newcastle, Wollongong, or anywhere else in NSW.

 

[Coolangatta]

And yes, I agree with you MelbourneGWS about Vic clubs wanting to plant their feet firmly in Melbourne, which is why I have no issue with the Giants and Suns covering the ACT and NT markets. It'd be a damn shame if no footy was played there, and if the Vic's won't play there (and there's no reason to think they will), who else will?

So I'd like to see that continue unless some Vic clubs do a 180 and put their hand up.

And I do think if the Vic clubs give the middle finger to testing the waters in new markets, it shuts down the whole "expand to 24+ teams" idea that crazy Eddie's like me think about.

If Cairns gets * all games then really I only see the logical expansion of the game being 20/21 ACT and WA3, 22 SA3 23 NT/NA 24 WA4

With the latter two being the biggest question marks even though I'd argue WA4 is more viable than SA3 and certainly more viable than NT/NA.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

I'm aware of all that. I never said anything about Hawthorn relocating, just that the AFL needs to put the Giants truly to the test at some point.

Given no Victorian clubs will relocate and it's extremely unlikely the Giants ever relocate or end the Canberra contract early, then the logical choice given the limited options would be to bring in Canberra as team 20.

Now, with the Giants presumably playing all their games in Sydney from 2033 onwards, I guess they'd just be stuck there in limbo if they aren't flying by then (and they could be).

I wouldn't relocate them to WA, SA, or NT, for the same reasons I wouldn't relocate any club to Tassie: it's a slap in the face to footy heartland zones -- they should always have their own clubs, not scraps from Victoria or the northern states.

If the Giants can't crack Western Sydney after 5 or 10 years of playing there full time, then they should give the Newcastle market a trial and maybe, just maybe move there if they're gaining traction in ways they aren't in WS. That said, I think it's likely that Newcastle gives AFL the finger.

tl;dr the Giants should always be a NSW club, but let's face it, Western Sydney is bigger than anywhere else so I would say they will fight tooth and nail to stay there and not reinvent themselves in Newcastle, Wollongong, or anywhere else in NSW.

I think the real test will come when Giants regularly sell out Giants Stadium for their home matches there. There was an article before the Collingwood match where the AFL was stating that with 5 of our 11 home matches effectively sold out (Collingwood, the Sydney derby and the 3 Canberra matches), the key was to maximise attendances for the remaining 6 home matches at Giants Stadium. I think it is regular sellouts of the home games in Giants Stadium that may prompt the AFL to reconsider the future of the Giants in Canberra after 2032?

 

[Coolangatta]

I think the real test will come when Giants regularly sell out Giants Stadium for their home matches there. There was an article before the Collingwood match where the AFL was stating that with 5 of our 11 home matches effectively sold out (Collingwood, the Sydney derby and the 3 Canberra matches), the key was to maximise attendances for the remaining 6 home matches at Giants Stadium. I think it is regular sellouts of the home games in Giants Stadium that may prompt the AFL to reconsider the future of the Giants in Canberra after 2032?

You're probably right, since the ongoing narrative is that the Giants need Canberra... until they don't.

If the Giants are still struggling, then WA3 is probably going to be team 20, but that should not mean ACT never gets a team, but I wouldn't blame Canberra Pear and others for being pissed if ACT never gets a team because the Giants never get up and going.

So, for an ACT teams sake, I hope the Giants do start getting bigger crowds in the near future, because it's entirely possible that the AFL is sitting back right now and thinking the Giants can't afford to let go of Canberra.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

I think the real test will come when Giants regularly sell out Giants Stadium for their home matches there. There was an article before the Collingwood match where the AFL was stating that with 5 of our 11 home matches effectively sold out (Collingwood, the Sydney derby and the 3 Canberra matches), the key was to maximise attendances for the remaining 6 home matches at Giants Stadium. I think it is regular sellouts of the home games in Giants Stadium that may prompt the AFL to reconsider the future of the Giants in Canberra after 2032?

BTW this was the article that included the statement from the AFL CEO

“On Saturday night, there’s over 20,000 [tickets sold], the Giants will basically sell out the three games they play in Canberra and their game against the Swans when they host the home derby will again be another close-to-sellout at Giants Stadium so almost half their games are at absolute capacity,” Dillon said.

“What we’ve got to do is work with the Giants on the remaining six home games that they have, and it’s fixturing, it’s marketing. They play an amazing brand of football, as they showed last year. So I think it’s a whole range of ingredients coming together.

“I’m really confident that the crowds at the Giants will continue to grow, you know, they’re only 12 years old as well and you sort of forget that. It’s a generational investment up there and their crowds on a Sydney scale are still pretty strong and I think they’ll get they’ll continue to get stronger.”

AFL 2024: Andrew Dillon says AFL is No.1 sport in Australia ‘by any measure’

amp.theage.com.au

 

[Canberra Pear]

If the Giants are still struggling, then WA3 is probably going to be team 20, but that should not mean ACT never gets a team, but I wouldn't blame Canberra Pear and others for being pissed if ACT never gets a team because the Giants never get up and going.

If we don't get Team 20, I'll likely replace my Giants membership with a Brumbies one.

The fact that three of the five sell outs they're expecting are in Canberra means we're more than holding up our end of the bargain. We're showing we're more capable of hosting a team than the city that actually hosts the team. North's presence didn't stop Tasmania getting a team; GWS should play no factor in whether Canberra gets a team.

 

[Coolangatta]

If we don't get Team 20, I'll likely replace my Giants membership with a Brumbies one.

The fact that three of the five sell outs they're expecting are in Canberra means we're more than holding up our end of the bargain. We're showing we're more capable of hosting a team than the city that actually hosts the team. North's presence didn't stop Tasmania getting a team; GWS should play no factor in whether Canberra gets a team.

Fingers crossed

I really don’t want WA3 to be team 20 unless Canberra gets a relocation which won’t happen unless in the extremely unlikely event they pull the plug on GWS after 2032 and move them to Canberra.

Maybe if they’re still struggling to get 10k crowds by then, they’ll look at it but I know you’d prefer a successful Giants and your own club. I hope that’s the way it pans out, too.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Fingers crossed

I really don’t want WA3 to be team 20 unless Canberra gets a relocation which won’t happen unless in the extremely unlikely event they pull the plug on GWS after 2032 and move them to Canberra.

Maybe if they’re still struggling to get 10k crowds by then, they’ll look at it but I know you’d prefer a successful Giants and your own club. I hope that’s the way it pans out, too.

I genuinely want the best for the Giants. Western Sydney has a huge population, it needs a team. The potential for the Giants is huge and I believe it can be a big club in the future.

I want the best for GWS, but not at the expense of Canberra.

 

[speedpeck23]

Would be interesting to know with Giants V Collingwood last week what percentage of the Collingwood crowd came up from Melbourne versus how many live in Sydney and wanted to see the Pies play.

Almost certainly the big Vic Clubs eg Carl, Coll Ess, Geel, Rich would have a sizeable support base in Sydney and would turn up to see their team play in Western Sydney....Of Course long term you would want those supporters to indirectly promote the support base for the Giants. Those are the clubs which should fixtured to play in Western Sydney. The North game almost certainly would have got a better crowd in Canberra.

To play North in Western Sydney was asking for a problem with crowds..... Hard to understand why the AFL stuck with that fixture.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Almost certainly the big Vic Clubs eg Carl, Coll Ess, Geel, Rich would have a sizeable support base in Sydney and would turn up to see their team play in Western Sydney....Of Course long term you would want those supporters to indirectly promote the support base for the Giants. Those are the clubs which should fixtured to play in Western Sydney. The North game almost certainly would have got a better crowd in Canberra.

To play North in Western Sydney was asking for a problem with crowds..... Hard to understand why the AFL stuck with that fixture.

I'm also pretty sure it would've got a higher crowd in Canberra. We've only hosted GWS v North once, but we got 10,211. And that was back in 2014 when the Giants finished 16th.

To be fair though, it's only the fourth time in 13 seasons that North has played at Giants Stadium.

Conversely, of those big four teams, the Giants have hosted them 32 times in Sydney, and only one single time in Canberra (Richmond 2016). We're not really getting our money's worth, but it's helping them boost their Sydney crowds.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

You're probably right, since the ongoing narrative is that the Giants need Canberra... until they don't.

If the Giants are still struggling, then WA3 is probably going to be team 20, but that should not mean ACT never gets a team, but I wouldn't blame Canberra Pear and others for being pissed if ACT never gets a team because the Giants never get up and going.

So, for an ACT teams sake, I hope the Giants do start getting bigger crowds in the near future, because it's entirely possible that the AFL is sitting back right now and thinking the Giants can't afford to let go of Canberra.

I genuinely want the best for the Giants. Western Sydney has a huge population, it needs a team. The potential for the Giants is huge and I believe it can be a big club in the future.

I want the best for GWS, but not at the expense of Canberra.

It isn't just GWS eventually playing 11 home games in Western Sydney though - Canberra needs to be ready to be able to fund and host a full-time team.

Manuka's capacity is sub-15k. That's not acceptable for a team that is playing 11 home games. They also need high-quality training facilities and secondary grounds for AFLW and reserves team as well. Even if all of the Canberra AFL metrics were oversubscribed (attendances, engagement with the code, TV ratings etc.) that would suggest that the population base was engaged with a Canberra AFL team, the facilities still need to be built. Both to operate the team but to also self-generate revenue by selling enough tickets and corporate money in their home stadium.

If I were a Canberra AFL fan resident I would be asking politicians and local administrators what plans they have for AFL beyond GWS' contract expiring in 2032. If in the remote chance that the Giants grow so signifciantly that they could have 11 home games in Western Sydney, it will still take several years of planning the team plus construction to get a team up and about - meaning that Canberra will only have a team in the latter parts of the 2030's decate, at earliest.

 

[The Educator]

It isn't just GWS eventually playing 11 home games in Western Sydney though - Canberra needs to be ready to be able to fund and host a full-time team.

Manuka's capacity is sub-15k. That's not acceptable for a team that is playing 11 home games. They also need high-quality training facilities and secondary grounds for AFLW and reserves team as well. Even if all of the Canberra AFL metrics were oversubscribed (attendances, engagement with the code, TV ratings etc.) that would suggest that the population base was engaged with a Canberra AFL team, the facilities still need to be built. Both to operate the team but to also self-generate revenue by selling enough tickets and corporate money in their home stadium.

If I were a Canberra AFL fan resident I would be asking politicians and local administrators what plans they have for AFL beyond GWS' contract expiring in 2032. If in the remote chance that the Giants grow so signifciantly that they could have 11 home games in Western Sydney, it will still take several years of planning the team plus construction to get a team up and about - meaning that Canberra will only have a team in the latter parts of the 2030's decate, at earliest.

I would be shocked if, as soon as the Tasmania team is locked in (i.e the stadium), that the torch will be lit for the race for team 20.

Canberra would then need to be in it to win it so to speak

 

[Coolangatta]

It isn't just GWS eventually playing 11 home games in Western Sydney though - Canberra needs to be ready to be able to fund and host a full-time team.

Manuka's capacity is sub-15k. That's not acceptable for a team that is playing 11 home games. They also need high-quality training facilities and secondary grounds for AFLW and reserves team as well. Even if all of the Canberra AFL metrics were oversubscribed (attendances, engagement with the code, TV ratings etc.) that would suggest that the population base was engaged with a Canberra AFL team, the facilities still need to be built. Both to operate the team but to also self-generate revenue by selling enough tickets and corporate money in their home stadium.

If I were a Canberra AFL fan resident I would be asking politicians and local administrators what plans they have for AFL beyond GWS' contract expiring in 2032. If in the remote chance that the Giants grow so signifciantly that they could have 11 home games in Western Sydney, it will still take several years of planning the team plus construction to get a team up and about - meaning that Canberra will only have a team in the latter parts of the 2030's decate, at earliest.

The suggested date Canberra Pear, myself and a few others have suggested is 2033 for Canberra to enter the league so none of what you said should be an issue.

The Giants are staying in Canberra until 2032 so Canberra wouldn’t come in before that.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

The suggested date Canberra Pear, myself and a few others have suggested is 2033 for Canberra to enter the league so none of what you said should be an issue.

The Giants are staying in Canberra until 2032 so Canberra wouldn’t come in before that.

But then by that admission the planning and building of facilities needs to begin now to meet that timeline. Which doesn't look likely.

 

[The Educator]

The suggested date Canberra Pear, myself and a few others have suggested is 2033 for Canberra to enter the league so none of what you said should be an issue.

The Giants are staying in Canberra until 2032 so Canberra wouldn’t come in before that.

There is nothing stopping that agreement being mutually agreed to end earlier though

 

[Canberra Pear]

It isn't just GWS eventually playing 11 home games in Western Sydney though - Canberra needs to be ready to be able to fund and host a full-time team.

That $2.85m would transfer from the Giants to the Canberra team. All Canberra teams get government funding.

We also have higher crowds than Western Sydney and a richer population, so we'd make more than the Giants do from ticket and merch sales.

I'd like to see a proper business case, but I'm optimistic we'd have solid financials. We'd likely receive less distribution than the Giants.

Manuka's capacity is sub-15k. That's not acceptable for a team that is playing 11 home games.

Correct. The ACT Government is looking to upgrade the stadium to cater for a BBL and Sheffield Shield team.

They also need high-quality training facilities and secondary grounds for AFLW and reserves team as well.

Yes, we would need high-quality training facilities built. I think it'd probably be at Phillip. An upgraded Manuka won't be huge, so might still be capable of hosting AFLW and VFL teams. It's already hosted a few AFLW games (including GWS' largest crowds). Otherwise, we actually have a few grounds that would almost already be up to AFLW standard. I think Queanbeyan, Gungahlin, and Phillip would host AFLW really well.

If in the remote chance that the Giants grow so signifciantly that they could have 11 home games in Western Sydney,

Ignoring the irony that the Canberra partnership is hindering Western Sydney growth, why should that matter to a Canberra team? North didn't matter for Hobart. We shouldn't be shackled to the Giants just because they can't get their act together.

it will still take several years of planning the team plus construction to get a team up and about - meaning that Canberra will only have a team in the latter parts of the 2030's decate, at earliest.

Luckily the stadium is already in train.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

That $2.85m would transfer from the Giants to the Canberra team. All Canberra teams get government funding.

We also have higher crowds than Western Sydney and a richer population, so we'd make more than the Giants do from ticket and merch sales.

I'd like to see a proper business case, but I'm optimistic we'd have solid financials. We'd likely receive less distribution than the Giants.



Correct. The ACT Government is looking to upgrade the stadium to cater for a BBL and Sheffield Shield team.



Yes, we would need high-quality training facilities built. I think it'd probably be at Phillip. An upgraded Manuka won't be huge, so might still be capable of hosting AFLW and VFL teams. It's already hosted a few AFLW games (including GWS' largest crowds). Otherwise, we actually have a few grounds that would almost already be up to AFLW standard. I think Queanbeyan, Gungahlin, and Phillip would host AFLW really well.



Ignoring the irony that the Canberra partnership is hindering Western Sydney growth, why should that matter to a Canberra team? North didn't matter for Hobart. We shouldn't be shackled to the Giants just because they can't get their act together.



Luckily the stadium is already in train.

Can you point me to the plans for Manuka - what capacity will be like, etc.?

All I can find is general thought bubbles designed several years ago.