Politics Aussie Fascists and (neo)Nazis

[Malifice]

Well part of being here is to be educated. And your reference states it was the Germans who targeted civilians first.

Of course the Germans targeted civilians first, they literally started the war with an invasion of Poland where they bombarded Warsaw from the skies.

Germany didnt have any large Strategic bomber aircraft like the US and UK's Heavy bombers. They relied on much smaller aircraft dive bombing; generally at low altitude. Their doctrine was based around tactical bombing of military assets, and close air support for their ground forces.

Germanies primary bomber was the Heinkel He 111:

The Americans was the B17 Flying fortress:

The Allies bombing strategy was to send massive amounts of of huge bombers at high altitude and simply carpet-bomb the s**t out of cities full of civilians.

Britian lost 60,000 dead in German bombing raids.

Germany lost between 350,000 to 650,000 dead civilians. Japan lost another 500,000 (including 150,000 to nuclear weapons)

It's not even comparable.

Here is a photo of Hamburg after an Allied bombing raid:

37,000 civilians killed in a single night. 180,000 more wounded. 60 percent of the homes of the city razed to the ground.

Here is a photo of Dresden after it got bombed:

• 769 RAF Lancaster heavy bombers
• 9 RAF Mosquito medium bombers
• 527 USAAF B-17 Flying Fortress heavy bombers
• 784 USAAF P-51 Mustang fighters

Dropped nearly 4,000 tons of high explosive bombs on Dresden killing 25,000 civilians and destroying the city.

Here is a photo of Tokyo:

16 square miles (41 km2; 10,000 acres) of central Tokyo were destroyed by firebombs, leaving an estimated 100,000 civilians dead and over one million homeless.

Again, Im not saying the Germans were saints in this regard, but you cant compare their Strategic bombing with that of the Allies.

If the Germans had have won the war, I assure you multiple Allied Commanders would have hung from the gallows for these crimes.

 

[cartwright]

Of course the Germans targeted civilians first, they literally started the war with an invasion of Poland where they bombarded Warsaw from the skies.

Germany didnt have any large Strategic bomber aircraft like the US and UK's Heavy bombers. They relied on much smaller aircraft dive bombing; generally at low altitude. Their doctrine was based around tactical bombing of military assets, and close air support for their ground forces.

Germanies primary bomber was the Heinkel He 111:

The Americans was the B17 Flying fortress:

The Allies bombing strategy was to send massive amounts of of huge bombers at high altitude and simply carpet-bomb the s**t out of cities full of civilians.

Britian lost 60,000 dead in German bombing raids.

Germany lost between 350,000 to 650,000 dead civilians. Japan lost another 500,000 (including 150,000 to nuclear weapons)

It's not even comparable.

Here is a photo of Hamburg after an Allied bombing raid:

37,000 civilians killed in a single night. 180,000 more wounded. 60 percent of the homes of the city razed to the ground.

Here is a photo of Dresden after it got bombed:

• 769 RAF Lancaster heavy bombers
• 9 RAF Mosquito medium bombers
• 527 USAAF B-17 Flying Fortress heavy bombers
• 784 USAAF P-51 Mustang fighters

Dropped nearly 4,000 tons of high explosive bombs on Dresden killing 25,000 civilians and destroying the city.

Here is a photo of Tokyo:

16 square miles (41 km2; 10,000 acres) of central Tokyo were destroyed by firebombs, leaving an estimated 100,000 civilians dead and over one million homeless.

Again, Im not saying the Germans were saints in this regard, but you cant compare their Strategic bombing with that of the Allies.

If the Germans had have won the war, I assure you multiple Allied Commanders would have hung from the gallows for these crimes.

You left out Rotterdam, and Stalingrad - 40,000 civilians killed .. German air raids

 

[Crankyhawk]

Of course the Germans targeted civilians first, they literally started the war with an invasion of Poland where they bombarded Warsaw from the skies.

Germany didnt have any large Strategic bomber aircraft like the US and UK's Heavy bombers. They relied on much smaller aircraft dive bombing; generally at low altitude. Their doctrine was based around tactical bombing of military assets, and close air support for their ground forces.

Germanies primary bomber was the Heinkel He 111:

The Americans was the B17 Flying fortress:

The Allies bombing strategy was to send massive amounts of of huge bombers at high altitude and simply carpet-bomb the s**t out of cities full of civilians.

Britian lost 60,000 dead in German bombing raids.

Germany lost between 350,000 to 650,000 dead civilians. Japan lost another 500,000 (including 150,000 to nuclear weapons)

It's not even comparable.

Here is a photo of Hamburg after an Allied bombing raid:

37,000 civilians killed in a single night. 180,000 more wounded. 60 percent of the homes of the city razed to the ground.

Here is a photo of Dresden after it got bombed:

• 769 RAF Lancaster heavy bombers
• 9 RAF Mosquito medium bombers
• 527 USAAF B-17 Flying Fortress heavy bombers
• 784 USAAF P-51 Mustang fighters

Dropped nearly 4,000 tons of high explosive bombs on Dresden killing 25,000 civilians and destroying the city.

Here is a photo of Tokyo:

16 square miles (41 km2; 10,000 acres) of central Tokyo were destroyed by firebombs, leaving an estimated 100,000 civilians dead and over one million homeless.

Again, Im not saying the Germans were saints in this regard, but you cant compare their Strategic bombing with that of the Allies.

If the Germans had have won the war, I assure you multiple Allied Commanders would have hung from the gallows for these crimes.

Suspect that they would have hung but not for the war crimes more for being enemy combatants and leaders.
I’m still not convinced that war crimes as a concept in reality does anything to limit the harm civilians suffer. Look at current Israel vs Palestine I see no effect of fears of war crimes. Or Russian soldiers invading Ukraine. And your last point emphasises the pointlessness of “war crime” as an entity as in you only get punished if you lose.

 

[FIGJAM]

Not a good thing

Nope! War is s**t.

No, it's the first time we have seen tiktoks of war crimes being posted by the people committing those war crimes.

If Tik Tok was around in the Vietnam war, would the dumb arse 19 year old conscripts have streamed a bunch of their stupidity? Of course they would have.

Doesn't help that the governing entity of Gaza live streamed their war crimes in the first place.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Nope! War is s**t.


If Tik Tok was around in the Vietnam war, would the dumb arse 19 year old conscripts have streamed a bunch of their stupidity? Of course they would have.

Doesn't help that the governing entity of Gaza live streamed their war crimes in the first place.

I'm sure the Nazis would have live streamed as well if the technology existed, but it's not a sufficient defense or excuse for IDF war crime tik toks today.

Not sure why you would seek to normalise war crimes. Both sides are not the same.

 

[Crankyhawk]

I'm sure the Nazis would have live streamed as well if the technology existed, but it's not a sufficient defense or excuse for IDF war crime tik toks today.

Not sure why you would seek to normalise war crimes. Both sides are not the same.

War crimes are normal for war. It is the state of war which is abnormal. Once there is war, war crimes are inevitable. This isn’t normalising war crimes it is highlighting that war in itself is a crime.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

War crimes are normal for war. It is the state of war which is abnormal. Once there is war, war crimes are inevitable. This isn’t normalising war crimes it is highlighting that war in itself is a crime.

Bombing hospitals and refugee camps is not normal. Not even in war.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Bombing hospitals and refugee camps is not normal. Not even in war.

Suspect that s**t happens in all wars it’s just public this time
Iirc Russia struck hospitals in Ukraine
Pretty sure hospitals got hit on both sides in WW2 between uk and germany

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Suspect that s**t happens in all wars it’s just public this time
Iirc Russia struck hospitals in Ukraine
Pretty sure hospitals got hit on both sides in WW2 between uk and germany

This goes to the point I was making about normalising the war crimes we are seeing in real time.

Constantly explaining that it might of happened in other wars is seeking to normalise them.

 

[Crankyhawk]

This goes to the point I was making about normalising the war crimes we are seeing in real time.

Constantly explaining that it might of happened in other wars is seeking to normalise them.

i'm not sure that it is really a point.
If it was a point of distinction it would mean there is some action or consequence for a state that is engaging in those activities
As far as I can see there is no conseuqnce

So what I am talking about is that the lack of consequence for war crime makes having it as a charge or a concept pretty meaningless. You will only get done for war crime if you lose the war from what I have seen.

I think you may be coming from an idealistic "how the world should work" POV while I am coming from the "well no one seems to really give a s**t" POV. Otherwise someone would have intervened to stop Israel. And they arent.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

i'm not sure that it is really a point.
If it was a point of distinction it would mean there is some action or consequence for a state that is engaging in those activities
As far as I can see there is no conseuqnce

So what I am talking about is that the lack of consequence for war crime makes having it as a charge or a concept pretty meaningless. You will only get done for war crime if you lose the war from what I have seen.

I think you may be coming from an idealistic "how the world should work" POV while I am coming from the "well no one seems to really give a s**t" POV. Otherwise someone would have intervened to stop Israel. And they arent.

The Houthis tried to stop some boats that supply Israel, and were met with the full force of US/UK air strikes.

UN resolutions regarding Israel constantly vetoed by US.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Even the Nazis didn't live stream their war crimes!

 

[Crankyhawk]

The Houthis tried to stop some boats that supply Israel, and were met with the full force of US/UK air strikes.

UN resolutions regarding Israel constantly vetoed by US.

I'm not sure that the Houthi motivations are as pure as they claim.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I'm not sure that the Houthi motivations are as pure as they claim.

You could say the same thing about Israel, USA, UK etc.

 

[FIGJAM]

I'm sure the Nazis would have live streamed as well if the technology existed, but it's not a sufficient defense or excuse for IDF war crime tik toks today.

Not sure why you would seek to normalise war crimes. Both sides are not the same.

When you’ve got a bunch of testosterone fuelled conscripted teenagers and career servicemen then bad s**t will go down. It’s a statement of fact.

I note that you’re only focused on the IDF live-streaming s**t, but aren’t focused on the October 7 live streaming of multiple war crimes.

 

[Crankyhawk]

You could say the same thing about Israel, USA, UK etc.

Yes I could and would. Both UK and USA have picked a side and are involved in waging war on Palestinians via supply of bombs to Israel.
I suspect Houthis are trying to seize ships for free stuff (as pirates do)

 

[Ghost Patrol]

When you’ve got a bunch of testosterone fuelled conscripted teenagers and career servicemen then bad s**t will go down. It’s a statement of fact.

I note that you’re only focused on the IDF live-streaming s**t, but aren’t focused on the October 7 live streaming of multiple war crimes.

October 7 was one day of atrocities, which have been condemned by almost everyone. Also, plenty of those deaths on that day were from IDF helicopters and tanks....

141 days of IDF atrocities later, you are still stuck on October 7?

BUT HAMAS!

 

[Crankyhawk]

When you’ve got a bunch of testosterone fuelled conscripted teenagers and career servicemen then bad s**t will go down. It’s a statement of fact.

I note that you’re only focused on the IDF live-streaming s**t, but aren’t focused on the October 7 live streaming of multiple war crimes.

thats because hamas are understood to be terrorists shits so crimes and barbarity is expected. So low standards and it really is meaningless to criticize them as hamas do not give a s**t.

it is unfortunate that israel are racing hamas to the bottom though in also not giving a s**t.

 

[Gralin]

You know why but October 7 keeps coming up 4+ months later?
Because it's literally the only thing defenders of Israel can point to for 4+ months of atrocities

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Yes I could and would. Both UK and USA have picked a side and are involved in waging war on Palestinians via supply of bombs to Israel.
I suspect Houthis are trying to seize ships for free stuff (as pirates do)

They stopped their activities during the ceasefire, just like they said they would.

 

[FIGJAM]

October 7 was one day of atrocities…

No, it’s 141 consecutive days of the dual war crimes of holding civilian hostages and using both the hostages and Gazans as a human shield.

 

[Gralin]

probs time to take this back to the relevant thread

 

[Crankyhawk]

probs time to take this back to the relevant thread

yeah mea culpa it just came up so naturally when discussing the concept of war crimes

 

[Malifice]

Suspect that they would have hung but not for the war crimes more for being enemy combatants and leaders.

You dont hang leaders of defeated armies unless they've committed war crimes.

It's not a crime under international law to be a President.

 

[Malifice]

You left out Rotterdam, and Stalingrad - 40,000 civilians killed .. German air raids

The German air raid in Rotterdam killed 854 civilian casualties.

German bombing of Rotterdam - Wikipedia

Not quite the same scale as what came back the other way in cities like Dresden and Hamburg.

And I didnt say the Germans were innocent in this regard. They also hit Warsaw pretty hard in the early days of the war.