All things Politics

[DinoSoar]

It is recognised that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• Use the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates this forum that does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Maggie5 Gone Critical Anzacday Jen2310

 

[Mauvais Cheval]

Did you see that article about 500 horses dying somewhere? I just saw the article in passing. I thought you would be in mourning... or do you narrow your fetish down into particular breeds etc. I shouldn't really send this post. It gets into areas that are weird

Yes I did see the news. There appears to have been an illegal knackery operating near Wagga and 500 dead horses from there were found in a creek bed.

Am I in mourning? It is distressing. I mourn the senseless slaughter of many creatures, human or not. For me horses hold a special place. I believe we do not really own our horses, they are a gift from life to remind us what it means to be alive. A gift we often squander, or misuse, or abuse.

The ugly secret of the thoroughbred horse industry is a conservative 8000 horses slaughtered for pet food each year. Australia has the second largest breeding Industry on the planet, we breed massively large numbers, way more than can ever be accommodated in the racing industry and find a home after. Mass horse killing is mathematically factored into the industry. It doesnt take much knowledge of the industry to know it.

But I know that children murdered in Gaza means we cannot talk of anything else as nothing else matters or can ever be seen as worthy of our sympathies. Reductio at absurdum, Markfs style.

Horses are important to me because of how they entered my life. I was as lost as it is possible to be after three years in foster care bouncing around the system like a pinball. I had shut down so bad my foster carers sent me to stay with friends of theirs on the Dargo high plains to see if a different environment could do some good. I had never known anything about horses at all till then, and they were kind of terrifying but unknowable.

Lost in my own horrors I took to sitting on a fence just dissociating. There was a horse in that enclosure, a brumby that had been captured as a yearling in a cull, from a time when the solution to feral horse numbers was that rather than shooting them. Suddenly out of the blue I felt a nose nudging my chest, and this strange creature was right in front of me, having overcome his fear of what could have been a horse murdering monster, and instead submitting to the curiosity that is the other half of horse nature.

I learned much from that yearling colt, a being as lost and frightened as I was. Horses are very beneficial for therapy for people with PTSD. They are incredibly attuned to our feelings, and once you learn horse body language, you can see what you are thinking mirrored in them, if you know what to look for. Even when you dont consciously realise how ****ed up you are and how much you are broadcasting that. After I learned to ride, I was able to later take part in gentling him and training him, until we were a formidable team mustering cattle, something I still do when able and needed.

He lived there for many years, and in more recent years I have been able to buy him and bring him to live with me. I still recognise that I dont really own him. More he owns me really, but you need to know horses to understand. One of the more emotional moments in my life was being able to teach my own son to ride on him, and seeing Rangi my horse take infinite care of him.

My "fetish", Markfs, is trying somehow, when it seems most impossible, to find something of beauty and grace that speaks to the joy and possibility of life when there is almost nothing but dark and holding onto that like a drowning man reaching for a life preserver. Horses symbolise that to me. Your mileage may vary.

I am acutely aware of my own mental health struggles. At the age of 11 I was raped and tortured by my mum's boyfriend with my mum's involvement, for many months. My nights consist of the certain knowledge that at some point I will be plunged into vivid nightmares experiencing those events as if happening anew and I cant escape. I am typing this looking out at the back shed, where I hung myself during COVID because I had reached the end of the line and I had no strength to go on. My partner found me and had to cut me down, something I know stands between us even today.

What I have tried to do though, and yes not always succeeded, is not to use that as an excuse to just be an a-hole for no reason, and revel in that rationalisation and find ways to blame everyone else but myself.

Also I learned a lot about the power of anger, of hatred, of fear, or living at the sufferance of others, and the powerful lure of revenge when you find you have the power. When I was 14 in a group home and one of the youngest there, our band of boys was led by a damaged psycho. After a night where he got me majorly drunk, he raped me. Unfortunately, abuse and horror doesnt end when kids are placed in care, it just mutates thanks to how ****ed our system is.

So I hatched a plan. Next time we went on a drinking binge, I made sure to drink coke and top up his booze. Back at the house he was paralytic. He was at my mercy, and nobody would stop me. He had no friends see, only hangers on. Thats often the way with psychopaths, they are surrounded by like minded folks as averse to sticking their neck out as they are.

I desperately wanted to do to him what he did to me. For once in my life to feel powerful, to make someone else feel like I had been made to feel. My only mate in that home stopped me, and reminded me of what that would cost me. Because in doing that, I would simply become just like him, and lose whatever was left of me that was any good at all.

My mate calmly and quielty hanged himself during COVID and succeeded. I had to make the call to turn off his life support, and I regret I felt along with unbearable grief a sense of jealousy. He was free. I then tried myself, and I guess I suck at it.

Over my life I have developed then particular things that I find really hard to take from repeated personal experience. The easy lure of the power that comes from revenge and disfigures your soul like nothing on earth. The easy charm of the person who gains a feeling of satisfaction making others feel weak and helpless. The destructive force of someone using their struggles as a pass card to avoid trying to change and instead finds the chaos they can create a substitute for a life. And most of all, the relentlessly negative obsessive who decides to bring everyone else down to their level to make themselves feel better. Ive seen so many of all of them in my life I could genuinely vomit. If any of you in this thread recognise yourselves in this paragraph, so be it.

I have learned to survive, somehow. But in the service of survival I lost what it meant to be alive.

I am still here, but I know that wont last for long. A consequence of my attempt to die is constant bleeding in my brain which will claim me soon enough. But I have at least learned that even now, it matters to keep reaching for that hope, that possibility and joy of life while I still can aspire to. That is my fetish. And knowing whatever my crimes and failings, I will at least never be you.

And in service of that desire to keep reaching for the joy, my time here is done.

 

[manicpie]

More words in lieu of an actual explanation. I'm beginning to think you like me.

I do like you and try not to hold grudges. Ukraine didn't invade Russia and kill thousands, Palestine did. The Ukraine doesn't send suicide Bombers daily to Russia. I just don't think you have the ability to see more than one side of a story, whereas I always like to look at both sides. It's not a blight on you, it's just a difference of opinion. You can choose to take it as you like but at least let people have their say and views with a bit less bias.

 

[JB1975]

I do like you and try not to hold grudges. Ukraine didn't invade Russia and kill thousands, Palestine did. The Ukraine doesn't send suicide Bombers daily to Russia. I just don't think you have the ability to see more than one side of a story, whereas I always like to look at both sides. It's not a blight on you, it's just a difference of opinion. You can choose to take it as you like but at least let people have their say and views with a bit less bias.

Genocide is more than a difference of opinion, which might be the starting place of your error.

 

[Maggie5]

I know some really good eggs in my life. Actual real humanitarians and they wouldn't be posting your dribble day in day out pushing a narrative that Israel are committing a genocide when it's up for debate. Here's the obvious thing though - people have actually suggested what's happening in Ukraine may be that sexy word you adore, a genocide, but ultimately it doesn't really matter if it is or not as over in that part of the world many many thousands of innocent people including children have died for a land grab. No real humanitarian I'd know, only unhinged ideologues would actually get caught up in 'Genocide' as if to diminish the deaths of innocents over there.

Number of civilian casualties during the war in Ukraine 2022-2024, by date of report. As of February 15, 2024, 10,582 civilian deaths in Ukraine were reported by the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) due to the Russian invasion that started on February 24, 2022.

The current war in Ukraine is unlike what is happening in Israel. Further Ukraine is being supported by Nato countries and unaligned western democracies like Australia in sending arms to assist them in this war. The two are not comparable. Incidentally when western countries imposed sanctions on Russia, Israel was one country that didn't. (Israel has maintained relations with the Kremlin, refused to impose sanctions against Russia, and rejected calls to send defensive weaponry to Ukraine).

You have also previously mentioned the despicable treatment of the Uyghurs by China, this again is unlike what is happening in Israel and the world is beholden to China due to the many Trade agreement. Sadly this is what happens when you are a minority.

 

[sr36]

Dude I've had you on ignore for a few weeks now, can you please stop quoting me?

. Thanks for using "please". but I'll quote what I choose. And:



P.S. Having someone on ignore is a bit pointless if you choose to read the ignored content ... which you clearly have been doing.

 

[JB1975]

You have also previously mentioned the despicable treatment of the Uyghurs by China, this again is unlike what is happening in Israel and the world is beholden to China due to the many Trade agreement. Sadly this is what happens when you are a minority.

This is part of my issue with any sanctions against Israel. It's a nice idea, but a failure to sanction China for its crimes against the Uyghurs hasn't really set much of a standard.

Although a refusal to trade in military hardware would be nice.

 

[vindaloo]

Number of civilian casualties during the war in Ukraine 2022-2024, by date of report. As of February 15, 2024, 10,582 civilian deaths in Ukraine were reported by the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) due to the Russian invasion that started on February 24, 2022.

The current war in Ukraine is unlike what is happening in Israel.

This says is best for me...

Ukraine didn't invade Russia and kill thousands, Palestine did. The Ukraine doesn't send suicide Bombers daily to Russia. I just don't think you have the ability to see more than one side of a story, whereas I always like to look at both sides. It's not a blight on you, it's just a difference of opinion. You can choose to take it as you like but at least let people have their say and views with a bit less bias

 

[manicpie]

Genocide is more than a difference of opinion, which might be the starting place of your error.

See, you didn't even factor in what I said. To you it's genocide, to others it isn't. Genocide is usually associated with a completely innocent race or nation who is being attacked for no reason other than hatred or greed. Palestine has a horrible history of atrocities towards Israel which you just happened to overlook. The error is with you

 

[Maggie5]

This says is best for me...

Irrelevant to what I posted, yet again!

 

[Maggie5]

This is part of my issue with any sanctions against Israel. It's a nice idea, but a failure to sanction China for its crimes against the Uyghurs hasn't really set much of a standard.

Although a refusal to trade in military hardware would be nice.

There will always be countries with self interest that won't agree.

India being one, dependent on Russian oil. Second largest importer.

 

[JB1975]

See, you didn't even factor in what I said. To you it's genocide, to others it isn't. Genocide is usually associated with a completely innocent race or nation who is being attacked for no reason other than hatred or greed. Palestine has a horrible history of atrocities towards Israel which you just happened to overlook. The error is with you

Genocide does not require the victim to be 'completely innocent'. It can also be the result of a historical wrong, where it becomes a revenge which goes too far.

The Rwandan genocide is a rather horrific example, where a victimised group (the Hutu) sought revenge over the Tutsi.

Again, you might want to actually have a look at the definition of genocide...because it might help you in working out what a genocide is and isn't.

 

[vindaloo]

Irrelevant to what I posted, yet again!

And your post was irrelevant to mine before that.
As I said, it doesn't matter if one is a genocide or not. 11,000 civilians have died and some have been kidnapped to Russia in horrific circumstances. Mass rapes etc. Any proper humanitarian would agree that in the end, the most important thing to recognize is that it's a tragic loss of life under the circumstances. In many ways they aren't alike Ukraine/Hamas, you were correct with that statement.

 

[JB1975]

The US (and others) invasion of Iraq in 2006 is more similar to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It was a war crime, an unjustified act against a sovereign state designed to give the aggressor greater control over a territory, but it was in no way a genocide.

 

[vindaloo]

The US (and others) invasion of Iraq in 2006 is more similar to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It was a war crime, an unjustified act against a sovereign state designed to give the aggressor greater control over a territory, but it was in no way a genocide.

The US invaded Iraq in 2003. In 2001 there was September 11. Nearly all leaders condemmed, Sadam didn't. Sadam gloated. Sadam claimed to have chemical weapons. Sadam was malignant. Sadam was a brhutal dictator who was responsible for the innocent deaths of hundreds of thousands of people through his time in power. Who was volodymyr zelensky and what were his sins he committed?

There's levels of shitness. The American invasion wasn't good, but it was not similar to Ukraine, not even close. That's a poor example.

 

[manicpie]

Genocide does not require the victim to be 'completely innocent'. It can also be the result of a historical wrong, where it becomes a revenge which goes too far.

The Rwandan genocide is a rather horrific example, where a victimised group (the Hutu) sought revenge over the Tutsi.

Again, you might want to actually have a look at the definition of genocide...because it might help you in working out what a genocide is and isn't.

So you now admit there is historical wrong. You said it was ok for Iran to send 160 missiles to Israel in retaliation to destroying their embassy. Wow, imagine if Israel was sending suicide Bombers daily into the streets and shopping centres in Iran, that surely qualifies for a reason to comit genocide, I mean, it's only 160 missiles. You have a distorted and bias view of genocide. Genocide was what Hitler did to the Jews, pure and simple. The only genocide Israel wants, is the genocide of Hamas. Unfortunately, Hamas doesn't care about palestinians and is more than happy to use them as human shields and force them to stay in areas of their hideouts, like schools and hospitals.

 

[vindaloo]

So you now admit there is historical wrong. You said it was ok for Iran to send 160 missiles to Israel in retaliation to destroying their embassy. Wow, imagine if Israel was sending suicide Bombers daily into the streets and shopping centres in Iran, that surely qualifies for a reason to comit genocide, I mean, it's only 160 missiles. You have a distorted and bias view of genocide. Genocide was what Hitler did to the Jews, pure and simple. The only genocide Israel wants, is the genocide of Hamas. Unfortunately, Hamas doesn't care about palestinians and is more than happy to use them as human shields and force them to stay in areas of their hideouts, like schools and hospitals.

The Bias from this poster has been insane throughout this thread.

 

[Maggie5]

And your post was irrelevant to mine before that.
As I said, it doesn't matter if one is a genocide or not. 11,000 civilians have died and some have been kidnapped to Russia in horrific circumstances. Mass rapes etc. Any proper humanitarian would agree that in the end, the most important thing to recognize is that it's a tragic loss of life under the circumstances. In many ways they aren't alike Ukraine/Hamas, you were correct with that statement.

And what of the Palestinian deaths and causalities?

Apart from an occasional 'both sides bad' and supposedly being critical of Netanyahu, you post very little about them.

 

[JB1975]

There will always be countries with self interest that won't agree.

India being one, dependent on Russian oil. Second largest importer.

This guy thinks that the starvation of children should trigger sanctions against Israel.

I would hardly be opposed, but I'd still feel slight unease about a double/self-serving standard.

Starvation is true horror. Sanctions against Israel are Australia’s only choice

To be morally consistent with previous actions and to uphold to amendments Wong herself pushed for, Australia must change its tune towards Israel.

www.theage.com.au

But then, I suppose we took a stand against South Africa while supporting corrupt and violent regimes in other parts of the world.

 

[manicpie]

The US (and others) invasion of Iraq in 2006 is more similar to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It was a war crime, an unjustified act against a sovereign state designed to give the aggressor greater control over a territory, but it was in no way a genocide.

The US invasion of Iraq was never a war crime. A sovereign state that harboured and supported the largest terrorist organisation in the world. It was also run by a tyrant who was sending missiles to Israel

 

[manicpie]

The Bias from this poster has been insane throughout this thread.

I don't mind difference of opinion but it has to go both ways

 

[JB1975]

So you now admit there is historical wrong. You said it was ok for Iran to send 160 missiles to Israel in retaliation to destroying their embassy. Wow, imagine if Israel was sending suicide Bombers daily into the streets and shopping centres in Iran, that surely qualifies for a reason to comit genocide, I mean, it's only 160 missiles. You have a distorted and bias view of genocide. Genocide was what Hitler did to the Jews, pure and simple. The only genocide Israel wants, is the genocide of Hamas. Unfortunately, Hamas doesn't care about palestinians and is more than happy to use them as human shields and force them to stay in areas of their hideouts, like schools and hospitals.

I said that genocide doesn't require a completely innocent victim.

The rest is your own uninspiring work of fiction.

Again, it might pay to actually look at the definition of genocide. Will you do that for JB?

 

[Maggie5]

So you now admit there is historical wrong. You said it was ok for Iran to send 160 missiles to Israel in retaliation to destroying their embassy. Wow, imagine if Israel was sending suicide Bombers daily into the streets and shopping centres in Iran, that surely qualifies for a reason to comit genocide, I mean, it's only 160 missiles. You have a distorted and bias view of genocide. Genocide was what Hitler did to the Jews, pure and simple. The only genocide Israel wants, is the genocide of Hamas. Unfortunately, Hamas doesn't care about palestinians and is more than happy to use them as human shields and force them to stay in areas of their hideouts, like schools and hospitals.

Here is another serious question. Also just to stress I am in no way a defender of Iran and their nuclear weapons and even Israel have them. I do feel for the innocents people of Lebanon caught up in this though!

How is it possible for one country (Israel) to bomb and attack another country (Lebanon and Iran) and not expect retaliation?

If it were any other countries this would result in all out war.

Really strange times we live in, I just hope this doesn't escalate into a wider war.

 

[manicpie]

And what of the Palestinian deaths and causalities?

Apart from an occasional 'both sides bad' and supposedly being critical of Netanyahu, you post very little about them.

It's much more complicated though because israel wants Hamas out but Hamas aren't going. The palestinians are caught in the middle. If israel was to stop now, Hamas would just continue to attack israel. If Hamas really cares about palestinians, they would surrender

 

[vindaloo]

And what of the Palestinian deaths and causalities?

Apart from an occasional 'both sides bad' and supposedly being critical of Netanyahu, you post very little about them.

Maggie I sent you a private message yesterday and you're doing it again. I don't want to run around in circles and turn this into a whatabout him sort of thing. I think some progress is being made in this thread at the moment, in terms of bias......

You've got the wrong guy.

 

[JB1975]

The US invasion of Iraq was never a war crime. A sovereign state that harboured and supported the largest terrorist organisation in the world. It was also run by a tyrant who was sending missiles to Israel

It was a war crime. There was no legal justification. All of the justifications for the invasion were false.

But keep waving the flag.