Autopsy AFLW Round 3, 2023: St.Kilda v Port Adelaide

[PoppedCorn]

Sad to see

 

[George]

Worry that these girls will move onto other clubs if we don't start winning games we probably should. Dal has offered nothing, Searle was doing better.

 

[saint66au]

Did we throw big coin at the 3 name imports this year? Wardlaw will be the only one there in 2 years ..shes got her flag. The other 2 just topping up their Super?

Weve gone massively backwards since Searle left. Zero development of young players and the likes of Shierlaw and TLR play one really good season then leave.

 

[CHBench]

Dal has gotta go. No evidence of development

We need to throw big coin at a half decent coach

It's a bit of everything.

• Expansion sent us back to square 1
• Never catching up from our poor establishment
• Lack of access to top u18 talent the past 2 seasons
• Patrikios not returning to the player she was pre her covid sit out while other teams young stars have kicked on
• Our only other top young mid in Smith missing 2 seasons with the ACL
• GC incentivising Rowbottom to nominate their draft zone and our concession prize in Friend not coming on the way we needed her to
• Questionable coaching

Nailed it.

Not getting either of Rowbottom or G Prespakis before Hawthorn, Sydney and Essendon gutted the following Vic draft was a huge gut punch, particularly as we had finished 2nd last in the league in S6 and should've had the first Victorian pick if it weren't for expansion. Instead, we entered the draft at #16

So suddenly instead of having Rowbottom/Prespakis & say Montana Ham/Jasmine Fleming, we have Ella Friend (dropped) & J'noemi Anderson (subbed out, although I wasn't watching and may be injured?).

I can't say for sure either, but I have a strong suspicion we can't compete commercially with deals/lures for players outside of the salary cap. Richmond are strong in this area, hence they've been able to build up better than us. Carlton players get cars from Hyundai for example.

Add in having a questionable quality coaching, why would anyone take a chance and come to us without a large pay day within the salary cap?

I only caught the first half today, but Wardlaw has been seriously ordinary so far - and I understand it would be incredibly tough to be a forward in a team like ours, but she has fumbled constantly every time she occasionally gets near it

And there's something to be said about former players going on to be superior players at their new teams

 

[Fehring]

It's a bit of everything.

• Expansion sent us back to square 1
• Never catching up from our poor establishment
• Lack of access to top u18 talent the past 2 seasons
• Patrikios not returning to the player she was pre her covid sit out while other teams young stars have kicked on
• Our only other top young mid in Smith missing 2 seasons with the ACL
• GC incentivising Rowbottom to nominate their draft zone and our concession prize in Friend not coming on the way we needed her to
• Questionable coaching

I only saw the last Q today but at least Smith was very good. Patrikios is just a mystery.

 

[Munga]

I'm not buying the "Dal can't coach" theory. To me, the struggle is 60% cattle, 30% professionalism, 10% list changes (just throwing figures out there). I.e. lacking physically, skillfully, attitude, and many new faces.

We still have players who are physically unable to regularly compete with the top end of the competition, and unfortunately might never. Here's the baseline...



It's about levels, AFLW, VFLW etc. Yes, they all can absolutely play football and be mentally hungry. But AFLW is only getting faster, stronger, taller, more skillful... and some are just getting left behind (literally on the field). Even some of players we have brought in over the years would've been great a decade ago, but aren't the blueprint player for where this league is quickly moving to. Is that on Dal? No.

And when I say we might struggle with skills, I don't so much mean we can't hit targets... I mean longer kicks have more options and are more beneficial to the team, same with handballing strength opens up more options to the team, and stronger upper body holds the marks against contact, faster players cover the ground better and give better options and have more time to execute better. Skills are greatly influenced by the physical side of a player.

Lambert comes in and straight away is our best player (or top three), why? Talent and a professional.
Greiser leaves and suddenly transforms physically into the shape of her career. Why? I can only assume attitude and professionalism was lacking when at the Saints and now got a kick up the arse. Is that on Dal? I wouldn't think so, it was the same under Searle. But I can only assume that he tried to get G to knuckle down.

I love Searle, knew her personally many years ago, dead set genuine legend. But we did often stink tactically under her. Compared to our style and tactics under Dal it's chalk and cheese. And I'm a fan of our assistant Robinson too, the Southern Saints are ridiculously well drilled under her.

I keep saying it, we are absolutely improving, but rest of the competition are improving much faster thanks to their gifts from the AFL. And as CHBench said, we can't offer Hyundai's to attract guns like other clubs. You can't really expect Dal to be challenging with this list. I really can't see any way we can challenge in future years whilst the competition is so contrived. The AFL want the success to be elsewhere. Just the fact that they want specific areas to win is sickening. I thought AFLW would be different and a level playing field. Alas, no.

 

[BrutThough]

Dal has gotta go. No evidence of development

We need to throw big coin at a half decent coach

Nailed it.

Not getting either of Rowbottom or G Prespakis before Hawthorn, Sydney and Essendon gutted the following Vic draft was a huge gut punch, particularly as we had finished 2nd last in the league in S6 and should've had the first Victorian pick if it weren't for expansion. Instead, we entered the draft at #16

So suddenly instead of having Rowbottom/Prespakis & say Montana Ham/Jasmine Fleming, we have Ella Friend (dropped) & J'noemi Anderson (subbed out, although I wasn't watching and may be injured?).

I can't say for sure either, but I have a strong suspicion we can't compete commercially with deals/lures for players outside of the salary cap. Richmond are strong in this area, hence they've been able to build up better than us. Carlton players get cars from Hyundai for example.

Add in having a questionable quality coaching, why would anyone take a chance and come to us without a large pay day within the salary cap?

I only caught the first half today, but Wardlaw has been seriously ordinary so far - and I understand it would be incredibly tough to be a forward in a team like ours, but she has fumbled constantly every time she occasionally gets near it

And there's something to be said about former players going on to be superior players at their new teams

We can't. Part of the reason we struggled to attract good established players to begin with. Initially, it didn't hurt that much because Patrikios was performing at a level that equaled many of Richmond's established stars but it's caught up to us now.

Most players who move in AFLW is due to the pay packet so we aren't alone there. We've been a more attractive proposition since getting rid of Searle but if we don't improve in field, that won't last long.

Also with Patrikios, she had a knee issue all pre season so that might be a big reason why she not hitting the heights she us too and it would feel harsh singling her out if it is injury related. But it also comes back to coaching and why isn't she starting in the majority of centre bounces while someone like Priest is.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Dal has gotta go. No evidence of development

We need to throw big coin at a half decent coach

Nailed it.

Not getting either of Rowbottom or G Prespakis before Hawthorn, Sydney and Essendon gutted the following Vic draft was a huge gut punch, particularly as we had finished 2nd last in the league in S6 and should've had the first Victorian pick if it weren't for expansion. Instead, we entered the draft at #16

So suddenly instead of having Rowbottom/Prespakis & say Montana Ham/Jasmine Fleming, we have Ella Friend (dropped) & J'noemi Anderson (subbed out, although I wasn't watching and may be injured?).

I can't say for sure either, but I have a strong suspicion we can't compete commercially with deals/lures for players outside of the salary cap. Richmond are strong in this area, hence they've been able to build up better than us. Carlton players get cars from Hyundai for example.

Add in having a questionable quality coaching, why would anyone take a chance and come to us without a large pay day within the salary cap?

I only caught the first half today, but Wardlaw has been seriously ordinary so far - and I understand it would be incredibly tough to be a forward in a team like ours, but she has fumbled constantly every time she occasionally gets near it

And there's something to be said about former players going on to be superior players at their new teams

Yep, even the likes of Whitford traded for virtually nothing and still playing games at a good GC team.

That Rowbottom decision really hurt us. Prespakis in there would make a huge difference. But, the lower the better this year, honestly.

 

[CHBench]

I really can't see any way we can challenge in future years whilst the competition is so contrived. The AFL want the success to be elsewhere. Just the fact that they want specific areas to win is sickening. I thought AFLW would be different and a level playing field. Alas, no.

This is very obvious and so off putting to supporting the wider league outside of St Kilda.

Has anyone from AFLW media (Sarah Black, Sam Lane etc) written about why the expansion packages for Richmond/Geelong/StK/West Coast were so different to Hawthorn/Essendon/Sydney? I don't wanna be all woah is me, but the access to elite young talent + the ability to sign whoever for the latter seems generous compared to the former

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

GC incentivising Rowbottom to nominate their draft zone and our concession prize in Friend not coming on the way we needed her to

I like friend but row bottom going to Gold Coast meant we missed out on prespakis

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Dal has gotta go. No evidence of development

We need to throw big coin at a half decent coach

Nailed it.

Not getting either of Rowbottom or G Prespakis before Hawthorn, Sydney and Essendon gutted the following Vic draft was a huge gut punch, particularly as we had finished 2nd last in the league in S6 and should've had the first Victorian pick if it weren't for expansion. Instead, we entered the draft at #16

So suddenly instead of having Rowbottom/Prespakis & say Montana Ham/Jasmine Fleming, we have Ella Friend (dropped) & J'noemi Anderson (subbed out, although I wasn't watching and may be injured?).

I can't say for sure either, but I have a strong suspicion we can't compete commercially with deals/lures for players outside of the salary cap. Richmond are strong in this area, hence they've been able to build up better than us. Carlton players get cars from Hyundai for example.

Add in having a questionable quality coaching, why would anyone take a chance and come to us without a large pay day within the salary cap?

I only caught the first half today, but Wardlaw has been seriously ordinary so far - and I understand it would be incredibly tough to be a forward in a team like ours, but she has fumbled constantly every time she occasionally gets near it

And there's something to be said about former players going on to be superior players at their new teams

Has there ever been a coach sacked mid season in the AFLW? We might be stuck with him til next year

 

[Saints2001]

Has there ever been a coach sacked mid season in the AFLW? We might be stuck with him til next year

Nah the season is too short to really make it worthwhile. I suspect they will give him this season and see how he goes - will have had 30 games in charge by then.

 

[Yawkey way]

I’ll make this simple, we don’t have the cattle. Pick your coach mick stinear who‘s doing a tremendous job and we wouldn’t have won any more games than we have under dal.

 

[saint66au]

This is very obvious and so off putting to supporting the wider league outside of St Kilda.

Has anyone from AFLW media (Sarah Black, Sam Lane etc) written about why the expansion packages for Richmond/Geelong/StK/West Coast were so different to Hawthorn/Essendon/Sydney? I don't wanna be all woah is me, but the access to elite young talent + the ability to sign whoever for the latter seems generous compared to the former

Richmond and Geelong seem to have coped OK after one slow year to start

Im not sure if the Club are fair dinkum about the W side tbh. We're the only Club in the comp with a part time coach

 

[Munga]

Richmond and Geelong seem to have coped OK after one slow year to start

Im not sure if the Club are fair dinkum about the W side tbh. We're the only Club in the comp with a part time coach

My memory is hazy, but I'm fairly sure they recevied extra picks in single figures, yet we were struggling and got some token pick that wasn't used???

I don't say it lightly saint66au , we've been f!@#ed over by the AFL. They do not care about us, the lowest of low priorities we are.

 

[saint66au]

I like friend but row bottom going to Gold Coast meant we missed out on prespakis

Friend was dropped last week. Cant see the other two gettting dropped anytime soon

 

[saint66au]

My memory is hazy, but I'm fairly sure they recevied extra picks in single figures, yet we were struggling and got some token pick that wasn't used???

I don't say it lightly saint66au , we've been f!@#ed over by the AFL. They do not care about us, the lowest of low priorities we are.

Not arguing with that at all. I think its a bit from Column A and bit from Column B

 

[Vacuous Space]

My memory is hazy, but I'm fairly sure they recevied extra picks in single figures, yet we were struggling and got some token pick that wasn't used???

The picks got used. St Kilda got pick 25 in 2021, which was traded with pick 22 for the Ash Richards pick. The league then gave the club pick 28 in 2022, specifically to trade for Nic Stevens. All of which is nice, but it doesn't come close to making up for missing out on Prespakis/Rowbottom in 2021 or Ham/Fleming/Clarke/etc in 2022.

Richmond got Sarah Hosking in 2020 and a 2021 second rounder as assistance from the league. Geelong got top-ten picks they used on Friswell and Featherston as well as the ability to sign Fowler and Gunjaca off their VFL team. Even if that's better than what the Saints have got, I don't think that stuff is the reason they're playing finals and St Kilda is at the bottom.

The question is, what will it take to fix the problem? And will the team win more meaningless games against non-finals teams at the end of the season, allowing the league to convince themselves that everything is fine.

 

[BrutThough]

The picks got used. St Kilda got pick 25 in 2021, which was traded with pick 22 for the Ash Richards pick. The league then gave the club pick 28 in 2022, specifically to trade for Nic Stevens. All of which is nice, but it doesn't come close to making up for missing out on Prespakis/Rowbottom in 2021 or Ham/Fleming/Clarke/etc in 2022.

Richmond got Sarah Hosking in 2020 and a 2021 second rounder as assistance from the league. Geelong got top-ten picks they used on Friswell and Featherston as well as the ability to sign Fowler and Gunjaca off their VFL team. Even if that's better than what the Saints have got, I don't think that stuff is the reason they're playing finals and St Kilda is at the bottom.

The question is, what will it take to fix the problem? And will the team win more meaningless games against non-finals teams at the end of the season, allowing the league to convince themselves that everything is fine.

It's probably in our best interest to not win a game so the AFL cant give the recent expansion team more concessions at the expense of us (and West Coast).

 

[Vacuous Space]

It's probably in our best interest to not win a game so the AFL cant give the recent expansion team more concessions at the expense of us (and West Coast).

They can and, let's face it, they probably will:

The little-known rule that could see top prospects skip the draft

A player signing rule could open the door for some of this year's best draft prospects to be signed by clubs ahead of time

www.afl.com.au

Find someone who looks at you the way the AFL looks at the clubs who didn't want and AFLW team.

This draft is already a weaker one than the 2022 draft or the one in which 2006-born girls will be drafted. I'm unaware of anyone considered to be on the level of Prespakis/Rowbottom/Ham/Fleming. Plus, you've got whatever compensation they decide to give to teams that lost players to the latest expansion teams in the last round of concessions that none of the previous expansion teams got.

I don't think you can make the Saints or Eagles competitive without getting creative. Even a couple of top-ten draft picks (like Geelong got) probably won't get it done. Hopefully, the league sees what has happened in the first few rounds on the back of Bates and Molloy moving to bottom clubs and extends that kind of help to clubs that actually need it, not just their favourites.

 

[BrutThough]

They can and, let's face it, they probably will:

The little-known rule that could see top prospects skip the draft

A player signing rule could open the door for some of this year's best draft prospects to be signed by clubs ahead of time

www.afl.com.au

Find someone who looks at you the way the AFL looks at the clubs who didn't want and AFLW team.

This draft is already a weaker one than the 2022 draft or the one in which 2006-born girls will be drafted. I'm unaware of anyone considered to be on the level of Prespakis/Rowbottom/Ham/Fleming. Plus, you've got whatever compensation they decide to give to teams that lost players to the latest expansion teams in the last round of concessions that none of the previous expansion teams got.

I don't think you can make the Saints or Eagles competitive without getting creative. Even a couple of top-ten draft picks (like Geelong got) probably won't get it done. Hopefully, the league sees what has happened in the first few rounds on the back of Bates and Molloy moving to bottom clubs and extends that kind of help to clubs that actually need it, not just their favourites.

Of course that rule exists to prop those teams up again

There was an interview today from someone in the Eagles camp asking for concessions similar to what the last expansion group got. I'd be going to the AFL with the same proposal as we are in a similar boat.


"Cowan said West Coast was hoping for assistance more akin to the final four expansion clubs. All four clubs could poach established players through a priority signing period ahead of this season, Sydney and Port Adelaide were both permitted additional list spots, and the Swans could offer players contracts beyond the AFLW-standard two seasons.

“We’re in conversations with the AFL around further support and what that can look like, having applauded them for what they’ve done with the likes of Gold Coast, Port Adelaide, and a lot of other teams who have had those concessions and support which is going to help with the equality of the entire competition,” Cowan said.

When asked if West Coast’s previous list concessions had been enough, Cowan said they were at odds with the luxuries afforded to opposition clubs.

“They’re very different to some of the other concessions other clubs have received,” she said. “We continue to have those conversations with the AFL and hopefully we can come to an agreement on that.”

 

[Vacuous Space]

There was an interview today from someone in the Eagles camp asking for concessions similar to what the last expansion group got. I'd be going to the AFL with the same proposal as we are in a similar boat.

Honestly, it's encouraging that they're asking the question. It feels more likely that something is going to happen for the Saints if it's also happening for the Eagles.