A thread on politics- have some balls and post

[nup]

Can you show me on the doll where the woke hurt your feelings?

I don't think my inputs been too outlandish, if I'm out of touch then so be it

 

[dlanod]

On this very page I said I never have and never will go on there. Noone else has had an issue with me having my two cents worth despite this qualification which I gave.

There aren't many other platforms, go on any one of them right now and say im proud to be a real actual man and you wont even make it past the bot keeper

But a) that's very different from talking about International Men's Day, and b) it's also not true given I just tested it out.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I don't think my inputs been too outlandish, if I'm out of touch then so be it

The nation and the world seem to be heading in a different direction to yourself. Nothing is guaranteed, but the trends are towards progressivism. You don't have to get on board the train, but don't be surprised to one day find most of society has boarded it.

 

[Viceregal]

The nation and the world seem to be heading in a different direction to yourself. Nothing is guaranteed, but the trends are towards progressivism. You don't have to get on board the train, but don't be surprised to one day find most of society has boarded it.

Progressivism is a trend like any other and has a level of social inertia ... at one point people would have have been able to say the same thing about Prohibition which became the law of the land and was eventually repealed. When times are good and threats are seen as far away or non-existant people tend towards tolereance of both the folks external as well as the more unproductive members of socitey ... when times are bad, resources are limited and local/personal survival is as stake then the trends tend to move the other way.

A classic example would be the folks stranded somewhere who end up eating their fellows. None of them would have been supporters of a voluntary-cannibalism movement before and none of them (the survivors that is) would likely have changed their opinion on it afterwards however as part of the exigencies of the situation of starve to death vs eat vs be eaten they went with the option that meant survival. In a hypothetical situation where there were only going to be 10 people survive to continue the human race ... I doubt that that the biological unit identifying as a woman but who has a beard would poll as well as the biological female capable of reproduction ... atm society is prepared to pay that price but in extremis it would not count.

It will be interesting to watch how winter plays out in Europe this year.

 

[dlanod]

I definitely struggle to write off an entire side of politics now or any point in the future. At most it means it will recalibrate with more moderate rather than populist leaders and the cycle will start anew.

 

[briztoon]

Social media is the online version of scribbling on the back of a public toilet door. Twitter is the prime example.

Absolutely hilarious to see the crazy lefties getting all upset at Elon that the crazy right stuff no longer gets deleted.

Was so much better when just crazy leftie stuff was allowed wasn't it? Democracy dies in the darkness after all..

Genuine question, who are the crazy lefties?

If we had them here in QLD, I’d vote Teal.


The current Liberal party has gone too far right.

Trumpism has caused so much damage in America.

People trying to use “Woke” as an insult, when all it means is having a social conscience and sense of community.

There’s a big difference between the crazy left, who want to save everything, and the crazy right who want to oppress everyone who isn’t WASP and destroy everything for profit at the cost of humanities future.

It’s not only the crazy left concerned about Musk and Twitter. I know heaps of Teal and moderate Liberals (and I’m talking actual paid up party members) who express the same concerns publicly.

edit: right, damn it. Can I blame the meds I’ve gone off.

 

[nup]

But a) that's very different from talking about International Men's Day, and b) it's also not true given I just tested it out.

I've made clear enough comments, not trying to win any prizes here.

I've been banned off Facebook and post removed for posting something not more controversial than that real actual man statement but I'm glad you weren't censored. Hopefully it withstands any report as hate speech for making someone not feel safe.

 

[Viceregal]

People trying to use “Woke” as an insult, when all it means is having a social conscience and sense of community.

The Amish have a social conscience and a sense of community ... as do the Mormons, as did the Puritans, the Apaches, the Inquisitors, the BLM folks ... 'woke' is more applied to a particular brand of social identification and their belief that they are the only ones in the camp of the righteous so to speak.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Progressivism is a trend like any other and has a level of social inertia ... at one point people would have have been able to say the same thing about Prohibition which became the law of the land and was eventually repealed. When times are good and threats are seen as far away or non-existant people tend towards tolereance of both the folks external as well as the more unproductive members of socitey ... when times are bad, resources are limited and local/personal survival is as stake then the trends tend to move the other way.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Politics (in the West, anyway) doesn't necessarily move to the right every time there's a recession. Also, inequality can play a very big role too. When the average person isn't doing well, sometimes that's because the wealthiest are doing well at their expense. Those are often the conditions that lead to left-wing revolutions, most obviously the French and Russian Revolutions.

Are times good now? And does climate change constitute one of the threats you mentioned? I'd say if we don't start treating it as one, resources will be much more limited in future. And recognising this and taking preventative action has for some reason become associated with progressive politics but not conservative politics.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I definitely struggle to write off an entire side of politics now or any point in the future. At most it means it will recalibrate with more moderate rather than populist leaders and the cycle will start anew.

I'll believe the moderate Liberal resurgence narrative when I see them become party leaders

 

[dlanod]

The Amish have a social conscience and a sense of community ... as do the Mormons, as did the Puritans, the Apaches, the Inquisitors, the BLM folks ... 'woke' is more applied to a particular brand of social identification and their belief that they are the only ones in the camp of the righteous so to speak.

Let's be realistic - "woke", like "SJW" before it, "liberal" before that, "socialist" before that, and so on, is used purely to set up an easy us vs them narrative. It's a meaningless word adopted as a low stakes dog whistle. There is no accurate definition to it because it means whomever the user wants to portray against an "other" to their like-minded fellows and I laugh at both those who use it in earnest and those who get distressed about its usage applied to them.

 

[Viceregal]

I'm not sure I agree with this. Politics (in the West, anyway) doesn't necessarily move to the right every time there's a recession. Also, inequality can play a very big role too. When the average person isn't doing well, sometimes that's because the wealthiest are doing well at their expense. Those are often the conditions that lead to left-wing revolutions, most obviously the French and Russian Revolutions.

Are times good now? And does climate change constitute one of the threats you mentioned? I'd say if we don't start treating it as one, resources will be much more limited in future. And recognising this and taking preventative action has for some reason become associated with progressive politics but not conservative politics.

Progressive atm is associated with left but there have been progressives in the past who equally believed that they were on the cutting edge of history and their vision of social uptopia was the only way to go and never expected it to not last etc who were more on the right side (no one would consider Victorian England to be lefties!).

Re your climate change question some consider it to be an immanent threat that will destroy us all within x years (for whom it is considered a threat requiring immediate and surgical action) and others who consider climate change to be primarily a function of the sun and volcanos both out of our powers and they might consider climate change per se to be no threat but climate change activists to be one. There are also folks who think that climate change is a furphy but do consider resource depletion and over population to be imanent threats.

Inequlaity is totally part of the threat matrix. A ruling class for whom all is peachy over a more slavey class who are struggling and see no hope will react very differently and preceive different threats. Part of the standard lifecycle of an empire is that in the early days everyone inside benefits from the expanding empire (not so much the areas being expanded into!) and that just before the empire falls the benefits of empire are seen to acrue to the elites and the burdens of them to the lowers classes (the process hasn't changed it is just that early on the system is eating external folks and late the voracious maw is turned on the internal ones).

 

[Sausages]

This time next century, when we are being wiped from the face of the Earth, we can reflect on the impact social media had on the rise of extremism.

Prior to that, people walked down the street, in their hometowns and cities, believing everyone they passed broadly shared the same values. They might like a different footy team or even vote for a different party. But, on critical things, things that altered or redirected the social structure, people were ignorantly believing that most people thought like them on those issues.

And let's be honest - with the MYRIAD of different issues, coupled with complex moral and ethical shades, there's a zillion different sides blah blah blah.

The fact people are more driven to gossip about some dickhead rich white bloke and the modern tech of being able to wear a shirt and have everyone in the world know what's written on it, than the facts of climate change, speaks volumes of our capacity to survive as a species. Put simply, we like listening to our own bullshit far more than is healthy or even necessary.

If large numbers of expert, qualified and educated people are insufficient to sway governments and corporations from their consumerist endless growth mindset, then who gives a * what other s**t people feel is important - Twitter, Musk, guns, GOP, gender, sexuality......it's all meaningless in 100 years, worst case scenario.

And if you read this as a denier, feel free to babble your s**t - I'm not here to argue nor debate with you. You do you.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

The Amish have a social conscience and a sense of community ... as do the Mormons, as did the Puritans, the Apaches, the Inquisitors, the BLM folks ... 'woke' is more applied to a particular brand of social identification and their belief that they are the only ones in the camp of the righteous so to speak.

How many woke people have you personally met and spoken with? Have they expressed to you the belief they are the only ones in the camp of the righteous? When I've spoken to people who you'd describe that way, they'd often be the first to say they're not perfect and are making mistakes and learning from them as they go. You don't need to be morally perfect to call out injustice or potentially upsetting behaviour or words when you see it, you just need to understand if there's an issue with it, and not find that issue acceptable.

Progressive atm is associated with left but there have been progressives in the past who equally believed that they were on the cutting edge of history and their vision of social uptopia was the only way to go and never expected it to not last etc who were more on the right side (no one would consider Victorian England to be lefties!).

How are you defining progressive in this case?

I'd say there were a lot of social reformers in Victorian England, like abolitionists, anti-colonialists and suffragettes, who were derided by other people of their time as being revolutionary and wishing to destroy the fabric of society. Whether they were leftist depends on how you define leftist.

Re your climate change question some consider it to be an immanent threat that will destroy us all within x years (for whom it is considered a threat requiring immediate and surgical action) and others who consider climate change to be primarily a function of the sun and volcanos both out of our powers and they might consider climate change per se to be no threat but climate change activists to be one. There are also folks who think that climate change is a furphy but do consider resource depletion and over population to be imanent threats.

I'm not interested in opinions, I'm interested in facts. The evidence suggesting climate change is a clear and present danger to humanity is overwhelming.

Inequlaity is totally part of the threat matrix. A ruling class for whom all is peachy over a more slavey class who are struggling and see no hope will react very differently and preceive different threats. Part of the standard lifecycle of an empire is that in the early days everyone inside benefits from the expanding empire (not so much the areas being expanded into!) and that just before the empire falls the benefits of empire are seen to acrue to the elites and the burdens of them to the lowers classes (the process hasn't changed it is just that early on the system is eating external folks and late the voracious maw is turned on the internal ones).

Okay. Do you believe we're currently in good times or bad times? Are the benefits of the economy accruing mostly to the average people or to the elites? Who is bearing the burdens of the economy?

 

[briztoon]

The Amish have a social conscience and a sense of community ... as do the Mormons, as did the Puritans, the Apaches, the Inquisitors, the BLM folks ... 'woke' is more applied to a particular brand of social identification and their belief that they are the only ones in the camp of the righteous so to speak.

So, the Born Again Christians???

 

[Viceregal]

How many woke people have you personally met and spoken with? Have they expressed to you the belief they are the only ones in the camp of the righteous? When I've spoken to people who you'd describe that way, they'd often be the first to say they're not perfect and are making mistakes and learning from them as they go. You don't need to be morally perfect to call out injustice or potentially upsetting behaviour or words when you see it, you just need to understand if there's an issue with it, and not find that issue acceptable.

grin - that reminds me of when opinions on racism are bolstered by 'I know lots of [insert relevant race here] people and ... and see final comment below.

How are you defining progressive in this case?

Progressive as in people who believe that the path that they are on is progressing from the previous further to a future closer to a desired state that they believe to be better for not just themselves but most everybody

I'd say there were a lot of social reformers in Victorian England, like abolitionists, anti-colonialists and suffragettes, who were derided by other people of their time as being revolutionary and wishing to destroy the fabric of society. Whether they were leftist depends on how you define leftist.

Like I said progressives can be in either direction.

I'm not interested in opinions, I'm interested in facts. The evidence suggesting climate change is a clear and present danger to humanity is overwhelming.

That the evidence is as clear to you as to allow no other opinion takes us out of the realm of evidence - science thrives on scepticism and questioning, legal procudures of arguement and counter-arguement ... to declare that this is the Truth leads into the realms of dogma. (see below comment re live and let live)

Okay. Do you believe we're currently in good times or bad times? Are the benefits of the economy accruing mostly to the average people or to the elites? Who is bearing the burdens of the economy?

My personal belief is not relevent to the discussion but if you care on a level of personal interest I reckon we are on the tail end of a civ cycle and any alien student of exo-antropology watching would be getting out the popcorn. <-- again this is illustrative btw

So, the Born Again Christians???

grin so my poetic 'in the camp of the righteous' got taken literally - the concept was supposed to be along the lines of live and let live is not being a huge feature of the woke wordview. Intolerance comes in many guises whether they burn people, burn books, tear down statues, get people fired or throw racial epitets ... as soon as those who disagree with me become the enemy to be destroyed it makes it hard to share a society.

 

[briztoon]

grin - that reminds me of when opinions on racism are bolstered by 'I know lots of [insert relevant race here] people and ... and see final comment below.


Progressive as in people who believe that the path that they are on is progressing from the previous further to a future closer to a desired state that they believe to be better for not just themselves but most everybody


Like I said progressives can be in either direction.


That the evidence is as clear to you as to allow no other opinion takes us out of the realm of evidence - science thrives on scepticism and questioning, legal procudures of arguement and counter-arguement ... to declare that this is the Truth leads into the realms of dogma. (see below comment re live and let live)


My personal belief is not relevent to the discussion but if you care on a level of personal interest I reckon we are on the tail end of a civ cycle and any alien student of exo-antropology watching would be getting out the popcorn. <-- again this is illustrative btw


grin so my poetic 'in the camp of the righteous' got taken literally - the concept was supposed to be along the lines of live and let live is not being a huge feature of the woke wordview. Intolerance comes in many guises whether they burn people, burn books, tear down statues, get people fired or throw racial epitets ... as soon as those who disagree with me become the enemy to be destroyed it makes it hard to share a society.

No, I was having fun.

And stepping out of the conversation as it passed my ability to contribute further.

I’ll happily observe at this point.

 

[weevil]

I like turtles.

 

[nup]

 

[notliondown]

Woke. There is a term that pisses me off to the absolute max when used the way the right do.

If it's woke to respect others then I'm woke.
If it's woke to allow people to choose who they are, who they love and what they believe then I'm woke.
If it's woke to understand that my view isn't the only view then I'm woke.
If it's woke to believe we all should be able to feel safe and have a place in the world then I'm woke.
If it's woke to be open minded to things that once seemed foreign to me then I'm woke.
If it's woke to want to leave a better world to my nephews and nieces then I'm woke.
If it's woke to want to view our past with open eyes and do better in the future then I'm woke.

People use woke like it's some sort of insult. It's actually more a compliment. And I've found it's often those who struggle to see their own prejudices that label others woke.

Being tolerant and respectful shouldn't be a left or right thing. It should just be a thing.

This is wedge politics and division. And woke is a lazy catch phrase that's misplaced and simply wrong. We all can and need to better at simply being better human beings.

I honestly think this is the first time ever I can remember, when no matter what age I talk to, most think the younger generations will do better than we have. The last few election results have shown that younger voters are no longer fooled and are more engaged. If that's being woke then more power to them.

 

[Sausages]

 

[Sausages]

Penny Wong, Dec 7, Carnegie Institute speech in Washington - Opinion piece

"The US is extraordinarily secure. Its military spending is more than the combined total of the next nine biggest spenders, including China."

I'm not taking that quote (which is the author's, not Wong's) at face value, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be grossly inaccurate.

But * me....we are walking an incredibly thin tightrope in all this posturing.

 

[Jetafl]

If a candidate's names was Turd Sandwich, I would give them strong consideration.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

It's not been uncommon for me to step up to the ballot box and I'm not overly impressed with the choices I've got in front of me.

What would you like to see from politicians? Is there anything they could offer in their policy programs that you'd be impressed with?

 

[Sausages]

I think this sums it up nicely