Public vs Private School funding

[nut]

And this is what we need. Cultural shift lead by government (I've mentioned this before). Then I think we can look at a full system revamp. I do worry that shifting our culture in this regard will be somewhat more challenging than in Finland and other cultures.

Without any cultural shift, I just can't visualise a positive education change accompanied with system change.

We need better media rules and journalist standards before we can achieve anything in this country…
We are controlled by corporate media.

 

[Sttew]

How about looking at other countries that have successfully created a public school system? With out the need for a private system… a system that spends less and gets better results for all!!!!

Isn’t that the aim?

Serious question. Stripping private schools of funding is one thing but why would you want to completely do away with a private school system? What is the motivation?

 

[nut]

Serious question. Stripping private schools of funding is one thing but why would you want to completely do away with a private school system? What is the motivation?

If people still want to pay for private schools they can…. But it’s not needed

 

[Reg Grundy35]

It's a scenario where funding is removed from private schools and some end up surviving based purely on their fees. In that situation, I'd guess that only the absolute elite schools survive, attracting only the elite families, allowing them to have a parent body who can fund even more extreme resource building and pilfering (top teachers), creating a bigger education divide.

so your argument here is that maintaining current funding levels for private schools is a sensible thing to do?

 

[Reg Grundy35]

That's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm trying to have conversation around this topic that is looking further than just, 'private schools are bad, so let's scrap them'. What does that look like afterwards?

But instead, I'm getting met with a whole lot of pretty low level responses from some (note, not all)... and yet I'm the one getting a lecture from others about 'bad faith' posting.

If you lot don't want discussion. That's all fine with me.

sorry about the low level repsonses. I guess its my public school upbringing

 

[faible]

Serious question. Stripping private schools of funding is one thing but why would you want to completely do away with a private school system? What is the motivation?

Having a two-speed system means you'll likely end up with those who have money and/or influence sending their kids to private schools, and therefore having no real skin in the game when it comes to developing and improving the public system.

Shove everyone in to the same system and suddenly all the ultra-wealthy and politicians who have kids in public schools will find they deeply care about the quality of the public education system.

 

[Gruffles]

so your argument here is that maintaining current funding levels for private schools is a sensible thing to do?

For the moment. In my opinion, after doing this, then we can look at a restructure of our education system as a whole with a greater potential of a successful outcome.

 

[Sttew]

Having a two-speed system means you'll likely end up with those who have money and/or influence sending their kids to private schools, and therefore having no real skin in the game when it comes to developing and improving the public system.

Shove everyone in to the same system and suddenly all the ultra-wealthy and politicians who have kids in public schools will find they deeply care about the quality of the public education system.

Or you'll end up with a two tier public system with Selective entry schools and mainstream schools.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

And this is what we need. Cultural shift lead by government (I've mentioned this before). Then I think we can look at a full system revamp. I do worry that shifting our culture in this regard will be somewhat more challenging than in Finland and other cultures.

Without any cultural shift, I just can't visualise a positive education change accompanied with system change.

The old Finland trope is crap. They have a small population who somehow how have agreed to accept higher levels of taxation that would turn even progressive political parties here white when they think of the electoral risk. Its never gonna happen. People have being trying to shift the culture for years. I was in the system for 40. Guess which way it's gone?. There is only one solution - a govt with balls needs to act. I doubt it will ever happen. The private school lobby in Aus is basically our very own NRA and will threaten to destroy anyone who goes near their pipeline. I don'to even advocate for withdrawing all funds from them. Just fix it up so that educational opportunities in this country don't depend on your postcode or your family tree. Private schools will never go away. Many of those parents would pay triple to keep their kids away from the great unwashed.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Or you'll end up with a two tier public system with Selective entry schools and mainstream schools.

still better than what we have now. At least they'd be open to all.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Serious question. Stripping private schools of funding is one thing but why would you want to completely do away with a private school system? What is the motivation?

i wouldn't. If people want to run elite or weirdo Christian schools, that is their right if they meet all registration requirements (ongoing reviews). They just pay for it themselves. Simple

 

[Sttew]

still better than what we have now. At least they'd be open to all.

Selective entry schools are not open to all. It is... selective entry. Only about one quarter of students who apply to get into selective entry schools are offered placements.

 

[ShanDog]

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with private schooling. There's only an issue when public schooling - which we all reasonably assume our tax dollars will be spent on - are not fully funded while private schools continue to receive above and beyond what they require to operate.

 

[The Punter]

Anyone with the means will always seek to better their situation or the situation of those close to them. This is human nature.

I think we could get somewhere in this debate with a clear understanding that elite schools are not the same as the entire non-government sector.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Selective entry schools are not open to all. It is... selective entry. Only about one quarter of students who apply to get into selective entry schools are offered placements.

They get in on ability through testing not dad's wallet or political donations. Anyone can apply. Its not easy - plenty of rich kids would flop i'm sure.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Anyone with the means will always seek to better their situation or the situation of those close to them. This is human nature.

I think we could get somewhere in this debate with a clear understanding that elite schools are not the same as the entire non-government sector.

You still haven't come good with this request I made yesterday

"The evidence is clear - devolved responsibility for staffing is not working in Victoria"

If its clear you should be able to put your hands on it quickly. Please don't tell me to google it, already tried that. Donuts.

Now once again now are talking about "clarity". Why would we take any notice when you don't even try to back up your CLEAR facts.

 

[Gruffles]

The old Finland trope is crap... People have being trying to shift the culture for years. I was in the system for 40. Guess which way it's gone?

I'm focussing on the respect developed for the system and it's teachers. I think that the idea that we could have a system that is the same overall as Finland's is a pipedream based on the same issues you've mentioned. Also, maybe I'm being overly optimistic here, but I don't see the fact that we haven't been able to shift culture so far doesn't mean that we won't be able to in the future.

There is only one solution - a govt with balls needs to act. I doubt it will ever happen. The private school lobby in Aus is basically our very own NRA and will threaten to destroy anyone who goes near their pipeline. I don'to even advocate for withdrawing all funds from them. Just fix it up so that educational opportunities in this country don't depend on your postcode or your family tree. Private schools will never go away. Many of those parents would pay triple to keep their kids away from the great unwashed.

And this then get's back to my side of the discussion. I don't see a simple change in the current funding model having significant impact on educational opportunities depending on postcode/family tree. Note - I'm not saying it's not achievable and it shouldn't change, just that more thought needs to go into how to achieve that change.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with private schooling. There's only an issue when public schooling - which we all reasonably assume our tax dollars will be spent on - are not fully funded while private schools continue to receive above and beyond what they require to operate.

right. Its pretty simple really. All the waffle is coz they don't want the tap turned off or slowed down. Can't blame them i suppose although it does reek of not giving 2 s about whether any other people's kids miss out as long as there's can still go to King Island in Yr 9.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

I'm focussing on the respect developed for the system and it's teachers. I think that the idea that we could have a system that is the same overall as Finland's is a pipedream based on the same issues you've mentioned. Also, maybe I'm being overly optimistic here, but I don't see the fact that we haven't been able to shift culture so far doesn't mean that we won't be able to in the future.


And this then get's back to my side of the discussion. I don't see a simple change in the current funding model having significant impact on educational opportunities depending on postcode/family tree. Note - I'm not saying it's not achievable and it shouldn't change, just that more thought needs to go into how to achieve that change.

multiple govts have been kicking that can down the corridor for 40 years - all that's happened is it got worse. Intervention is needed. Will probably cost someone govt unless they have a massive majority but thats all that'll work.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

I'm focussing on the respect developed for the system and it's teachers. I think that the idea that we could have a system that is the same overall as Finland's is a pipedream based on the same issues you've mentioned. Also, maybe I'm being overly optimistic here, but I don't see the fact that we haven't been able to shift culture so far doesn't mean that we won't be able to in the future.


And this then get's back to my side of the discussion. I don't see a simple change in the current funding model having significant impact on educational opportunities depending on postcode/family tree. Note - I'm not saying it's not achievable and it shouldn't change, just that more thought needs to go into how to achieve that change.

by the way - you having a few days off or doing this on the meter?

 

[Sttew]

Anyone with the means will always seek to better their situation or the situation of those close to them. This is human nature.

I think we could get somewhere in this debate with a clear understanding that elite schools are not the same as the entire non-government sector.

And not all private schools are the same. To use Cranbrook as being representative of all private schools is unfair. You only have to look at the "Private" Catholic system which represents just under 20% of all schools. Many Catholic primary and secondary schools are firmly at the bottom of the ladder in terms of facilities, quality of teaching and teaching staff etc.

The following true story is worth reading and serves as a reminder that not all private schools are equal:

Why did Catholic schools in Goulburn strike?​

By the 1960s the number of children attending secondary school had skyrocketed.
Catholic schools, which relied on funds raised by the church in their local community, were suffering. They didn’t have enough teachers, school buildings were old and classrooms were overcrowded.
In 1962 St Brigid’s Primary School in Goulburn was told that it needed to upgrade its toilet blocks right away, to meet health and safety standards. But the local Catholic community couldn’t afford to fix the problem. In what became known as a strike, the Catholic community decided to close all seven of Goulburn’s Catholic schools for six weeks.
On 16 July 1962 about 2000 Catholic school children arrived at Goulburn’s six government schools, but the schools could take only 640 students. The schools did their best to welcome the new arrivals, while the Catholic nuns escorted children to their new schools.
The school closures drew national media attention and divided the town.

In 1964 the Menzies government passed an Act that brought in federal funding for independent and religious schools. This happened after decades of lobbying by Catholic schools.

Government aid to non-government schools introduced | Australia’s Defining Moments Digital Classroom | National Museum of Australia

In 1964 the Menzies government passed an Act that brought in federal funding for independent and religious schools. This happened after decades of lobbying by Catholic schools. Today independent and religious schools receive most of their funding from the Australian Government, whereas...

digital-classroom.nma.gov.au

 

[Gruffles]

multiple govts have been kicking that can down the corridor for 40 years - all that's happened is it got worse. Intervention is needed. Will probably cost someone govt unless they have a massive majority but thats all that'll work.

Is this comment in regard to the culture aspect or the funding aspect? or both?

To be honest, I don't think any government has really done enough for education at all. Kicking the can down the road is a good analogy on that front.

by the way - you having a few days off or doing this on the meter?

I've actually been home sick these past 2 days. Hasn't stopped me marking student work and calling parents to discuss student concerns... although the fever may result in some interesting marking comments and maybe I should stay off the phone!

 

[Chief]

Or you'll end up with a two tier public system with Selective entry schools and mainstream schools.

This is not a problem.

See Brisbane State High, QASMT in Brisbane alone.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

And not all private schools are the same. To use Cranbrook as being representative of all private schools is unfair. You only have to look at the "Private" Catholic system which represents just under 20% of all schools. Many Catholic primary and secondary schools are firmly at the bottom of the ladder in terms of facilities, quality of teaching and teaching staff etc.

The following true story is worth reading and serves as a reminder that not all private schools are equal:

Why did Catholic schools in Goulburn strike?​

By the 1960s the number of children attending secondary school had skyrocketed.
Catholic schools, which relied on funds raised by the church in their local community, were suffering. They didn’t have enough teachers, school buildings were old and classrooms were overcrowded.
In 1962 St Brigid’s Primary School in Goulburn was told that it needed to upgrade its toilet blocks right away, to meet health and safety standards. But the local Catholic community couldn’t afford to fix the problem. In what became known as a strike, the Catholic community decided to close all seven of Goulburn’s Catholic schools for six weeks.
On 16 July 1962 about 2000 Catholic school children arrived at Goulburn’s six government schools, but the schools could take only 640 students. The schools did their best to welcome the new arrivals, while the Catholic nuns escorted children to their new schools.
The school closures drew national media attention and divided the town.

In 1964 the Menzies government passed an Act that brought in federal funding for independent and religious schools. This happened after decades of lobbying by Catholic schools.

Government aid to non-government schools introduced | Australia’s Defining Moments Digital Classroom | National Museum of Australia

In 1964 the Menzies government passed an Act that brought in federal funding for independent and religious schools. This happened after decades of lobbying by Catholic schools. Today independent and religious schools receive most of their funding from the Australian Government, whereas...

digital-classroom.nma.gov.au

ummm. dunno if you noticed but that was 60 years ago. there have been several changes to the funding model since pig iron Bob got involved and mind you he was no big fan of the catholic church. Gough did way more for them. The trajectory has only been one way. I defy you to identify one catholic school with worse facilities than the worst Govt schools in that town or suburb. I'm confident you won't. I've seen it first hand rather than 20 second googling of ancient history

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Is this comment in regard to the culture aspect or the funding aspect? or both?

To be honest, I don't think any government has really done enough for education at all. Kicking the can down the road is a good analogy on that front.


I've actually been home sick these past 2 days. Hasn't stopped me marking student work and calling parents to discuss student concerns... although the fever may result in some interesting marking comments and maybe I should stay off the phone!

report writing sickie. don't waste it on BF