NO TROLLS What is the actual case against COVID Vaccination?

[Chief]

If they were vaccinated, that opens up more questions.

The unvaccinated are 15+ times more likely to be hospitalised with Covid.

There are no questions here.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

I was talking about deaths of the vaccinated, in case you missed that. I don’t know what the numbers are, of unvaccinated deaths and vaccinated deaths. The previous poster was deploring the relatively high death rate in Australia and my reply was about that. What more can be done?

 

[Northalives]

If after all this time people are dying of covid because they weren’t vaccinated, well, they took their chances. If they were vaccinated, that opens up more questions. It remains a dangerous disease for some, but I don’t know what more governments can do.

Governments should not just dismiss this disease as insignificant and it is a danger to all people, not just some. I have seen people come in who contracted "mild" COVID early doors but are now experiencing significant medical problems such as chronic fatigue, "brain fog", headaches etc.

COVID is not an insignificant disease.

 

[Northalives]

I was talking about deaths of the vaccinated, in case you missed that. I don’t know what the numbers are, of unvaccinated deaths and vaccinated deaths. The previous poster was deploring the relatively high death rate in Australia and my reply was about that. What more can be done?

Plenty more can and should be done. As I stated, we are in the top five in the world of deaths due to COVID which is deplorable. Governments have just swept this issue under the carpet and that is criminal.

We need to educate and fix our borders. People NEED to be vaccinated and you do this by doing what we did during the AIDS crisis by educating and scaring the f**k out of the population to ram home the severity of this pathogen. We need urge people to use their own common sense and condemn in the most vehement way possible cranks, antivaxers, knuckdraggers, conspiracy morons instead of just tolerating them.

People that enter Australia must have been screened for COVID twice within 14 days of entering Australia and tested negative and then again upon arrival. If this is too hard and puts people off coming, then stiff shit.

Albanese and the ALP were vociferous about quarantine facilities and now they are in Government, they must, as a matter of urgency, build or refit existing facilities to make them bio-secure and use them to house infected arrivals and they must, as a matter of urgency require that air conditioning systems in buildings, hotels etc. meet new standards which stop the spread of the COVID virus - COVID is an airborne as well as surface spread disease.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Plenty more can and should be done. As I stated, we are in the top five in the world of deaths due to COVID which is deplorable. Governments have just swept this issue under the carpet and that is criminal.

We need to educate and fix our borders. People NEED to be vaccinated and you do this by doing what we did during the AIDS crisis by educating and scaring the f**k out of the population to ram home the severity of this pathogen. We need urge people to use their own common sense and condemn in the most vehement way possible cranks, antivaxers, knuckdraggers, conspiracy morons instead of just tolerating them.

People that enter Australia must have been screened for COVID twice within 14 days of entering Australia and tested negative and then again upon arrival. If this is too hard and puts people off coming, then stiff shit.

Albanese and the ALP were vociferous about quarantine facilities and now they are in Government, they must, as a matter of urgency, build or refit existing facilities to make them bio-secure and use them to house infected arrivals and they must, as a matter of urgency require that air conditioning systems in buildings, hotels etc. meet new standards which stop the spread of the COVID virus - COVID is an airborne as well as surface spread disease.

You may be right but I can’t see any of that happening. Besides, as I said before, people know now how to protect themselves but choose not to. On any given day there are tens of thousands across Australia testing positive for covid - it’s impossible to quarantine them all. Quarantining and testing overseas arrivals would be futile at stopping the spread of a disease that’s already endemic.

Again I ask what’s the proportion of vaccinated deaths compared to unvaccinated?

 

[Northalives]

You may be right but I can’t see any of that happening. Besides, as I said before, people know now how to protect themselves but choose not to. On any given day there are tens of thousands across Australia testing positive for covid - it’s impossible to quarantine them all. Quarantining and testing overseas arrivals would be futile at stopping the spread of a disease that’s already endemic.

Again I ask what’s the proportion of vaccinated deaths compared to unvaccinated?

Well the NSW Department of Health reckons that the unvaccinated made up only 4.6 per cent of COVID-19 cases but 22.8 per cent of deaths were among people who had not received any doses.

Professor Robert Booy, a greatly respected infectious diseases paediatrician has deduced that if you caught COVID-19 disease after receiving two or more doses of a vaccine, you had one chance in 800 of dying. If you were unvaccinated when you caught it, your chances of dying of the disease was one in 126 so there is absolutely no question that being vaccinated makes a huge difference to you chances of survival but by the same token, being vaccinated is not a guarantee that you are somehow immune to COVID-19.

We must reassess where we are and how we can correct this obvious failure in public health. Vaccinating children is critical in curtailing the spread of the disease.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

So you’re saying nearly a quarter of deaths from covid are unvaccinated, which means three quarters are fully or partly vaccinated. Then question of whether it was the covid that killed them or whether they died of something else but tested positive at the time.

I am not questioning the seriousness of the disease, in fact I posted one of the first videos of a doctor explaining how covid kills. I certainly wouldn’t want to get it and I’m fully vaxed.

It seems to me that it’s medicine that will have to come up with better efficacy of treatments, if that’s even possible with a coronavirus. Governments are pretty much past the point of mandating anything, mandates are unacceptable now.

 

[Northalives]

So you’re saying nearly a quarter of deaths from covid are unvaccinated, which means three quarters are fully or partly vaccinated. Then question of whether it was the covid that killed them or whether they died of something else but tested positive at the time.

I am not questioning the seriousness of the disease, in fact I posted one of the first videos of a doctor explaining how covid kills. I certainly wouldn’t want to get it and I’m fully vaxed.

It seems to me that it’s medicine that will have to come up with better efficacy of treatments, if that’s even possible with a coronavirus. Governments are pretty much past the point of mandating anything, mandates are unacceptable now.

The question is how can we as a society just shrug our shoulders and say, "it's too hard, don't worry about it".

Don't worry, I know how you feel about the seriousness of the disease; I have never doubted that.

 

[the_interloper]

The unvaccinated are 15+ times more likely to be hospitalised with Covid.

There are no questions here.

That's fine of course, but this alone doesn't affect anyone but the individual. If it doesn't stop you getting it or stop the spread it's a bit harsh to make people get it I reckon.

Yes it might stop the strain on the health system but we don't ban smoking and drinking of course.

I'm fully vaxxed by the way.

 

[Crankyhawk]

That's fine of course, but this alone doesn't affect anyone but the individual. If it doesn't stop you getting it or stop the spread it's a bit harsh to make people get it I reckon.

Yes it might stop the strain on the health system but we don't ban smoking and drinking of course.

I'm fully vaxxed by the way.

the "made to get it" is no real difference to what we do for childhood vaccinations. Dont get vaccinated dont get child care access.
don't get covid vaccine choosing to not be able to work in many settings.
no shits given

 

[Chief]

That's fine of course, but this alone doesn't affect anyone but the individual.

No, it affects us all in relation to health system resources. Fine if it's a rare thing etc, but when it's a big problem and sucks up lots of resources day to day then I've got no problem with mandates in many cases.

 

[the_interloper]

No, it affects us all in relation to health system resources. Fine if it's a rare thing etc, but when it's a big problem and sucks up lots of resources day to day then I've got no problem with mandates in many cases.

I did concede that later in my post, like I said we don’t ban things like smoking etc that cause a large impost on the health system

the "made to get it" is no real difference to what we do for childhood vaccinations. Dont get vaccinated dont get child care access.
don't get covid vaccine choosing to not be able to work in many settings.
no shits given

I’m lucky in that I was always getting the vaccine, would have irritated me a lot more if I wasn’t of course.

 

[sr36]

I did concede that later in my post, like I said we don’t ban things like smoking etc that cause a large impost on the health system

Pack a day smokers pay $15,000 a year in tax on their cigarettes. They pay in cash for the impost on the health system. Plus they don't get sick in a large wave.

 

[the_interloper]

Pack a day smokers pay $15,000 a year in tax on their cigarettes. They pay in cash for the impost on the health system. Plus they don't get sick in a large wave.

Is that an accurate figure? $40 or so for a pack of smokes yeah? 40 x 365 = $14,600 in total cost, I have no idea what % of a pack of darts is tax.

(Not trying to nitpick, your point is fair enough)

 

[sr36]

Is that an accurate figure? $40 or so for a pack of smokes yeah? 40 x 365 = $14,600 in total cost, I have no idea what % of a pack of darts is tax.

(Not trying to nitpick, your point is fair enough)

$15,000 is an exaggeration, but not a huge one. Most of the price is tax. I'm not sure on the price now but a carton of duty free used to cost about as much as two packs. A pack Marlboro costs less than $2 in countries which don't have extra tax (admittedly also lower wages and profit margins on products). So you're probably looking at about $12000 a year in tax.

 

[burge13]

People had their 4th yet? Thats gone real quiet after forcing 2, recommending 3. 3rds worn off by now like the 2nd did after 3 months so hope you're all up to date!!

 

[Crankyhawk]

People had their 4th yet? Thats gone real quiet after forcing 2, recommending 3. 3rds worn off by now like the 2nd did after 3 months so hope you're all up to date!!

4th is only recommended for over 65 yr old. A bit like flu vax
Now whether the option should be there to get it for free if wanted even if under 65 (like how flu vax has been opened up by eastern state governments) is a reasonable question.
I'm not sure that the evidence is there yet.

 

[maroon and blue]

mRNA's vaccines are an unknown quantity, I do not like them. They have no 7 year trial, and they have no clinical history. Time will tell if they have a beneficial effect. Unfortunately if they turn out bad it will be too late for many.

 

[Chief]

mRNA's vaccines are an unknown quantity, I do not like them. They have no 7 year trial, and they have no clinical history. Time will tell if they have a beneficial effect. Unfortunately if they turn out bad it will be too late for many.

You don't need a 7 year trial.

 

[Malifice]

That's fine of course, but this alone doesn't affect anyone but the individual.

If 15 times more people would need to be hospitalized, and 15 times more people were dying, how can that not affect other people?

Our hospitals for starters would be overwhelmed, leading to tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths (from all causes). People would be unable to get adequate medical care (including from COVID) and there would be a lot of people dying.

This was what was happening pre Vax remember. Doctors had to stop all non COVID treatment, and even then they were making hourly calls as to who to treat and who to leave to die.

If it doesn't stop you getting it or stop the spread it's a bit harsh to make people get it I reckon.

It slows down the spread, further easing the burden on hospitals.

The vaccination program had a net benefit to all of society, by easing the burden on our health care system, and keeping tens of thousands of people alive, that would otherwise be dead.

 

[maroon and blue]

You don't need a 7 year trial.

Thats what they said about thalidomide. You still see the repercussions today.

 

[Malifice]

mRNA's vaccines are an unknown quantity

Bullshit.

mRNA as a therapeutic was first promoted in 1989 after the development of a broadly applicable in vitro transfection technique. Only a couple of years later, mRNA was advocated as a vaccine platform, perhaps being ideal in the sense that it brings together the immunological features of live attenuated vaccines such as endogenous antigen expression and T cell induction with those of killed or subunit vaccines like defined composition and safety.

Particularly compared with DNA as a therapeutic or more specifically as a vaccine, mRNA offers strong safety advantages.5 As the minimal genetic construct, it harbors only the elements directly required for expression of the encoded protein. Moreover, while recombination between single-stranded RNA molecules may occur in rare cases,6,7 mRNA does not interact with the genome. Thus, potentially detrimental genomic integration is excluded. Finally, this lack of genomic integration in combination with mRNA being non-replicative as well as metabolically decaying within a few days8 makes mRNA a merely transient carrier of information.

Developing mRNA-vaccine technologies

The technology has been around longer than Mobile Phones.

 

[the_interloper]

If 15 times more people would need to be hospitalized, and 15 times more people were dying, how can that not affect other people?

Our hospitals for starters would be overwhelmed, leading to tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths (from all causes). People would be unable to get adequate medical care (including from COVID) and there would be a lot of people dying.

This was what was happening pre Vax remember. Doctors had to stop all non COVID treatment, and even then they were making hourly calls as to who to treat and who to leave to die.



It slows down the spread, further easing the burden on hospitals.

The vaccination program had a net benefit to all of society, by easing the burden on our health care system, and keeping tens of thousands of people alive, that would otherwise be dead.

I acknowledged the extra burden on the health system, that’s fair enough. I wondered why similar restrictions aren’t put on alcohol, smoking and fast food etc though, haven’t had a great answer for that.

I’m not convinced vaccination slowed the spread of Omicron though.

 

[Chief]

Thats what they said about thalidomide. You still see the repercussions today.

Which internet grifter came up with that?

 

[maroon and blue]

Which internet grifter came up with that?

No, no, thalidomide was a drug that was sold after the war to prevent morning sickness in pregnant women. Sadly it was widely prescribed and many babies were born with missing or deformed limbs. Long story short they lab tested it on animals except rabbits which are usually part of the efficacy regime. If they had have done the right right thing it would have been banned.