VFL New League Idea

[terrybull]

Also; why would Werribee no longer be the Tigers?

I see them referred sometimes as the Wasps. Fits the jumper better. Just not a fan of clubs sharing the same name. Call me Eddie

 

[eth-dog]

I see them referred sometimes as the Wasps. Fits the jumper better. Just not a fan of clubs sharing the same name. Call me Eddie

Since Richmond are an actual AFL club, why should a VFL club change their name to accomodate this?

 

[BK Eaglesfan]

Except in WAFL and SANFL the AFL clubs run their reserves teams in those competitions basically against the "stand alones".

I can't see the existing VFL clubs who perform strongly (Port and Willy) copping this junior TAC Cup merger idea and also getting relegated to what becomes clearly the third tier competition in Victoria (after AFL and AFL reserves).

All players who want to get drafted but missed out would want to be supplementary listed players with AFL reserve teams rather than get lumped into the 14 club "revamped" VFL. If they don't get a game where do they play? Local?

By aligning the current TAC Cup sides with old VFA teams as you've suggested that will link the elite juniors to a third rate senior league.

Playing senior VFL won't seem very attractive unless you're 24 years old and know you will never make the grade. Sponsors would rather get onboard the AFL reserve competition as well.

I can't see it working out in practical terms, but impressed that you've had a crack.

Some fair points and if this path was chosen there would need to be some serious thought around some of these issues.

I guess the first thing, is if the AFL bought in reserves, the VFL would still be positioned at the same level as WAFL and SANFL as those states would also have AFL reserves teams and no AFL listed players in the state based competition.

With respect to playing lists and where the elite juniors go, they would be at the same level as those in the other 'football states'. Can't see a downside to current TAC Cup teams merging with VFL clubs (not withstanding the feelings of the clubs themselves). Gives the VFL teams the elite juniors and similar to the other states most would play out their juniors in the underage comp, while some may rise to the senior team and be drafted from there. I remember Masten and Palmer player significant senior footy for East Fremantle in their last year prior to being drafted.

Supplementary players is the biggest issue I see. One option is to increase list sizes of the AFL teams so they can field the two teams form their own internal lists. Maybe more rookie listed players who are only allowed to play reserves? The key (which SA got right and WA screwed up completely) is to put some form of rule in place to prevent what you have called out, 20-24 year olds not drafted who all try and align themselves with the AFL listed teams. The best footballers in that age bracket who never got drafted, should be playing VFL, WAFL or SANFL.

Sponsorship wise, the reserves would come from AFL club budgets. Again, the other state based leagues aren't flush with cash but still draw sponsors who are more community minded or see greater bang for their buck than being a very minor sponsor with their dollars at an AFL club.

We end up with AFL reserves and the three 'football states' all with state based leagues that aren't compromised by results skewed by comings and goings of AFL listed players.

Arguably the biggest losers out of such a plan are Port Melbourne and Williamstown who go from playing Collingwood, Footscray, Richmond etc, to other current VFL teams minus AFL listed players.

 

[phantom13]

At the moment many people like me are fed up with the VFL. The crowds are low to matches and their are many uncompetitive clubs in the league making it worse. I have come up with an idea for a new structure of the VFL.

-All current Victorian AFL clubs now have a reserve team called by their name and are not associated with anyone.
-A structure simular to English football will include 2 divisions for the first year. DIV 1 (the AFL teams reserves) and DIV 2 (old VFA teams). The bottom 2 sides in DIV 1 will be relegated to DIV 2. The premiers and runners up in DIV 2 will be promoted to DIV 1.
-DIV 1 will field 10 teams with the finals top 5. DIV 2 will field 12 teams with the finals top 6.

DIVISION 1 Teams and home grounds: 20 Rounds (Home and Away)
Carlton Football Club (Princes Park)
Collingwood Football Club (Victoria Park)
Essendon Football Club (Windy Hill)
Footscray Bulldogs (Whitten Oval)
Geelong Cats (Simmons Stadium)
Hawthorn Football Club (Waverly Park)
Melbourne Football Club (Olympic Park)
North Melbourne (Arden Street)
Richmond (Punt Road Oval)
St Kilda (Moorabbin Oval)

DIV 1 Finals Structure:
WK 1: Qualifying Final: 2 V 3, Elimination Final: 4 V 5
WK 2: Semi Final 1: 1 V QF Winner, Semi Final 2: QF Loser V EF Winner
WK 3: Preliminary Final: SF1 Loser V SF 2 Winner
WK 4: Grand Final: SF1 Winner V PF Winner @ MCG

DIVISION 2 Teams and home grounds: 22 Rounds (Home and Away)
Bendigo Gold (Queen Elizabeth Oval)
Box Hill Bears (Box Hill City Oval)
Casey Scorpions (Casey Fields)
Coburg Panthers (Piranha Park)
Fitzroy Lions (Junction Oval)
Frankston Dolphins (Frankston Oval)
North Ballarat Roosters (Eureka Oval)
Port Melbourne Borough (North Port Oval)
Preston Bullants (Preston City Oval)
Sandringham Zebras (Trevor Barker Beach Oval)
Werribee Tigers (Chirnside Park)
Williamstown Seagulls (Burbank Oval)

DIV 2 Finals Structure:
WK 1: Qualifying Final: 3 V 4, Elimination Final: 5 V 6
WK 2: Semi Final 1: 1 V 2, Semi Final 2: QF Winner V EF Winner
WK 3: Preliminary Final: SF 1 Loser V SF 2 Winner
WK 4: Grand Final: SF 1 Winner V PF Winner North Port Oval

Theres obviously a few issues with this actually working but damned if I don't love the idea!!

 

[roscreasl98]

At the moment many people like me are fed up with the VFL. The crowds are low to matches and their are many uncompetitive clubs in the league making it worse. I have come up with an idea for a new structure of the VFL.

-All current Victorian AFL clubs now have a reserve team called by their name and are not associated with anyone.
-A structure simular to English football will include 2 divisions for the first year. DIV 1 (the AFL teams reserves) and DIV 2 (old VFA teams). The bottom 2 sides in DIV 1 will be relegated to DIV 2. The premiers and runners up in DIV 2 will be promoted to DIV 1.
-DIV 1 will field 10 teams with the finals top 5. DIV 2 will field 12 teams with the finals top 6.

DIVISION 1 Teams and home grounds: 20 Rounds (Home and Away)
Carlton Football Club (Princes Park)
Collingwood Football Club (Victoria Park)
Essendon Football Club (Windy Hill)
Footscray Bulldogs (Whitten Oval)
Geelong Cats (Simmons Stadium)
Hawthorn Football Club (Waverly Park)
Melbourne Football Club (Olympic Park)
North Melbourne (Arden Street)
Richmond (Punt Road Oval)
St Kilda (Moorabbin Oval)

DIV 1 Finals Structure:
WK 1: Qualifying Final: 2 V 3, Elimination Final: 4 V 5
WK 2: Semi Final 1: 1 V QF Winner, Semi Final 2: QF Loser V EF Winner
WK 3: Preliminary Final: SF1 Loser V SF 2 Winner
WK 4: Grand Final: SF1 Winner V PF Winner @ MCG

DIVISION 2 Teams and home grounds: 22 Rounds (Home and Away)
Bendigo Gold (Queen Elizabeth Oval)
Box Hill Bears (Box Hill City Oval)
Casey Scorpions (Casey Fields)
Coburg Panthers (Piranha Park)
Fitzroy Lions (Junction Oval)
Frankston Dolphins (Frankston Oval)
North Ballarat Roosters (Eureka Oval)
Port Melbourne Borough (North Port Oval)
Preston Bullants (Preston City Oval)
Sandringham Zebras (Trevor Barker Beach Oval)
Werribee Tigers (Chirnside Park)
Williamstown Seagulls (Burbank Oval)

DIV 2 Finals Structure:
WK 1: Qualifying Final: 3 V 4, Elimination Final: 5 V 6
WK 2: Semi Final 1: 1 V 2, Semi Final 2: QF Winner V EF Winner
WK 3: Preliminary Final: SF 1 Loser V SF 2 Winner
WK 4: Grand Final: SF 1 Winner V PF Winner North Port Oval

Of course there'll be a few issues, but I love the idea. Some of the Div 2 games could be Div 1 curtain raisers.

Or both Divisions could play at various country venues eg. Warrnambool, Seymour, Morwell, Shepparton etc. as curtain raisers or main games.

 

[HedgeFund]

Arguably the biggest losers out of such a plan are Port Melbourne and Williamstown who go from playing Collingwood, Footscray, Richmond etc, to other current VFL teams minus AFL listed players.

Correct. There's been big rumblings from these old VFA powerhouses about the Kelty Report and its recommendation to return to AFL reserve league as either a national league with 18 teams or at least a Victorian league with 10 teams.

Either way, this will see the inevitable jettisoning of "the rest" to the elite football junk heap.

I'm not sold on the idea of aligning TAC Cup sides with the cast offs. I'd expect more of an old "zoning" approach where the 10 Victorian AFL clubs are rewarded if they foster talent in their zone with priority selections from their "academies".

Geelong - Geelong Falcons
Bulldogs - Western
North - North Ballarat
Essendon - Bendigo/Calder
Richmond - Murray
Collingwood - Oakleigh
Carlton - Northern
Hawthorn - Eastern
St Kilda - Sandringham
Melbourne - Dandenong/Gippsland

Neater and simpler and more directly aligned to the level the cream graduate to currently at the end of TAC Cup football.

 

[BK Eaglesfan]

Correct. There's been big rumblings from these old VFA powerhouses about the Kelty Report and its recommendation to return to AFL reserve league as either a national league with 18 teams or at least a Victorian league with 10 teams.

Either way, this will see the inevitable jettisoning of "the rest" to the elite football junk heap.

I'm not sold on the idea of aligning TAC Cup sides with the cast offs. I'd expect more of an old "zoning" approach where the 10 Victorian AFL clubs are rewarded if they foster talent in their zone with priority selections from their "academies".

Geelong - Geelong Falcons
Bulldogs - Western
North - North Ballarat
Essendon - Bendigo/Calder
Richmond - Murray
Collingwood - Oakleigh
Carlton - Northern
Hawthorn - Eastern
St Kilda - Sandringham
Melbourne - Dandenong/Gippsland

Neater and simpler and more directly aligned to the level the cream graduate to currently at the end of TAC Cup football.

The underage alignment is certainly not a deal breaker for me.

Understand the concern from the remaining 'big clubs' in the current VFL. Be interested to see who takes a lead on this and whether there is a Victorian solution or a national one. W.A have screwed it up on multiple occasions to the detriment of the WAFL's integrity and S.A have done it better but it's still a clunky solution with two AFL 'reserves' teams in a 10 team competition where the other 8 are going all out for a premiership.

 

[eth-dog]

Correct. There's been big rumblings from these old VFA powerhouses about the Kelty Report and its recommendation to return to AFL reserve league as either a national league with 18 teams or at least a Victorian league with 10 teams.

Either way, this will see the inevitable jettisoning of "the rest" to the elite football junk heap.

I'm not sold on the idea of aligning TAC Cup sides with the cast offs. I'd expect more of an old "zoning" approach where the 10 Victorian AFL clubs are rewarded if they foster talent in their zone with priority selections from their "academies".

Geelong - Geelong Falcons
Bulldogs - Western
North - North Ballarat
Essendon - Bendigo/Calder
Richmond - Murray
Collingwood - Oakleigh
Carlton - Northern
Hawthorn - Eastern
St Kilda - Sandringham
Melbourne - Dandenong/Gippsland

Neater and simpler and more directly aligned to the level the cream graduate to currently at the end of TAC Cup football.

We have Calder only I'm fairly sure.

 

[HedgeFund]

We have Calder only I'm fairly sure.

Then North can work with a far larger North Ballarat/Bendigo catchment.

Either way it's a natural extension of the AFL's new multicultural academy approach, and would arrest the unrest in Victorian AFL club land re: northern state academy players and their clubs' priority access.

 

[Dadadadaaaaaa]

Some fair points and if this path was chosen there would need to be some serious thought around some of these issues.

I guess the first thing, is if the AFL bought in reserves, the VFL would still be positioned at the same level as WAFL and SANFL as those states would also have AFL reserves teams and no AFL listed players in the state based competition.

With respect to playing lists and where the elite juniors go, they would be at the same level as those in the other 'football states'. Can't see a downside to current TAC Cup teams merging with VFL clubs (not withstanding the feelings of the clubs themselves). Gives the VFL teams the elite juniors and similar to the other states most would play out their juniors in the underage comp, while some may rise to the senior team and be drafted from there. I remember Masten and Palmer player significant senior footy for East Fremantle in their last year prior to being drafted.

Supplementary players is the biggest issue I see. One option is to increase list sizes of the AFL teams so they can field the two teams form their own internal lists. Maybe more rookie listed players who are only allowed to play reserves? The key (which SA got right and WA screwed up completely) is to put some form of rule in place to prevent what you have called out, 20-24 year olds not drafted who all try and align themselves with the AFL listed teams. The best footballers in that age bracket who never got drafted, should be playing VFL, WAFL or SANFL.

Sponsorship wise, the reserves would come from AFL club budgets. Again, the other state based leagues aren't flush with cash but still draw sponsors who are more community minded or see greater bang for their buck than being a very minor sponsor with their dollars at an AFL club.

We end up with AFL reserves and the three 'football states' all with state based leagues that aren't compromised by results skewed by comings and goings of AFL listed players.

Arguably the biggest losers out of such a plan are Port Melbourne and Williamstown who go from playing Collingwood, Footscray, Richmond etc, to other current VFL teams minus AFL listed players.

I can see that there are issues for the strong VFA teams in DIV 2. But after the first year, if they are successful on field, they will go into DIV 1 with better sponsorships and financial deals, plus the opertunity to play against strong AFL reserves clubs in Collingwood, Carlton, Essendon, Hawthorn etc. Even if the strong VFA clubs are in DIV 2 like Port and Williamstown, they will build confidence playing against weaker clubs and it brings an opertunity for loyal fans to remember strong rivarlies from past. The same way in DIV 1, Carlton V Collingwood, Essendon V Hawthorn, Richmond V Collingwood rivarlies can be born again.

 

[walhawk]

I assumed this post was from 1999.
Nothing to be gained from this.
Most of the VFL clubs would fold overnight without AFL partnerships.
It is a shame that the VFA is dead as anything other than the AFL reserves with a few clubs tacked on, but it is way, way too late to remedy.
As an example I am pretty sure Box Hill no longer has a single supoorter who follows Box Hill not Hawthorn. Not even one. To suggest that they could survive for one minute in any level shows a complete lack of understanding of the situation.
The VFA died in the 1990s.

 

[walhawk]

Ah but one can still dream.

Think the biggest problem is the public are not interested whatever is done. Seemed more people attended other than VFL/AFL games up to the late 80's.
Now with AFL games on Thursday to Monday's and all available online 24/7 means people get their footy fix and don't feel motivated to attend amateur or semi amateur Leagues anymore...

This is not true. Crowds at many local clubs and leagues are up. Clubs like Vermont are way bigger that most VFL clubs (once you take out the AFL partner). People are returning to local footy. There is just no interest in state league footy in Victoria.

 

[HedgeFund]

Heads up - just read on another VFL related forum vflfooty.com that North Ballarat are voting this week on whether to stay in the VFL (unlikely so the locals say), or focus purely on their BFL team in North Ballarat City.

Would see the VFL reduced to 13 teams with 5 AFL reserves, 5 alignments and 3 stand alones.

What a mess.

Hopefully this is another concrete example to several here of how completely unfeasible the idea of operating a (third tier) state level league outside the AFL and AFL reserve competitions would appear to be.

Clubs are going to the wall at this level and rationalisation is the inevitable result of letting things drift as AFL Victoria have.

 

[mdavideedee_man64]

div 1
carlton
collingwood
essendon
geelong
hawthorn
melb
north
rich
stk
west bulldogs

div 2
port melb
sandringham
fitzroy/coburg lions (merged in 1997)
springvale (casey)
frankston
werribee
northern bullants
box hill mustangs

 

[pazza]

AFL Reserves Comp will happen.

My ideal solution and I think others are coming to it also (Ricky Nixon among them) is a VFL Statewide competition.

This competition would consist of the current non-aligned and partial aligned VFL clubs, country centre based clubs, Fitzroy, Prahran and Preston.

Each club will have a recruiting zone and a capped salary cap to make it financially viable.

So thus:

Bairnsdale - Southern and Eastern Gippsland
Ballarat - Ballarat Metropolitan, Southern Goldifelds and Wimmera
Bendigo - Bendigo Metropolitan, Northern Goldfields and Central Highlands
Box Hill - Eastern Suburbs and Dandenongs
Casey - Outer South-Eastern Suburbs
Coburg - North Western Suburbs
Fitzroy - Yarra Valley and Inner Northern Suburbs
Frankston - Outer Bayside Suburbs and Mornington Peninsula
Geelong Region - Covers Bellarine, Otway, Surf Coast and Geelong Metropolitan
Latrobe Valley - Western and Central Gippsland
Mildura - Sunraysia, Mallee and North-West Murray
Port Melbourne - Inner Southern Suburbs
Prahran - Inner South-Eastern Suburbs
Preston - Outer Northern Suburbs
Sandringham - Inner Bayside Suburbs
Shepparton - Goulburn Valley and Central Murray
Wangaratta - North Eastern Victoria, Alpine and Upper Murray
Warrnambool - South Western Victoria and Western Border
Werribee - Outer Western Suburbs
Williamstown - Inner Western Suburbs

2 Divisions to split state into 2 initially, but then promotion and relegation.

Division 1:

Ballarat
Bendigo
Coburg
Fitzroy
Geelong
Mildura
Port Melbourne
Warrnambool
Werribee
Williamstown

Division 2:

Bairnsdale
Box Hill
Casey
Frankston
Latrobe Valley
Prahran
Preston
Sandringham
Shepparton
Wangaratta

2 televised matches a week, one from each division.

 

[Too Old Too Slow (TOTS)]

AFL Reserves Comp will happen.
My ideal solution and I think others are coming to it also (Ricky Nixon among them) is a VFL Statewide competition.
Bairnsdale - Southern and Eastern Gippsland, Ballarat - Ballarat Metropolitan, Southern Goldifelds and Wimmera, Bendigo - Bendigo Metropolitan,............

Pazza the problem with "created" teams across the country is that they do not work, and will never work in statewide or even local footy. There is just not enough emotional / connection support for supporters, volunteers or even sponsors to make a Bendigo, Ballarat etc work. The only way the statewide could work is if the regional teams were North Ballarat, Golden Square, St Josephs/St Marys etc.

 

[Mr north man]

Pazza the problem with "created" teams across the country is that they do not work, and will never work in statewide or even local footy. There is just not enough emotional / connection support for supporters, volunteers or even sponsors to make a Bendigo, Ballarat etc work. The only way the statewide could work is if the regional teams were North Ballarat, Golden Square, St Josephs/St Marys etc.

No commercial network will broadcast this unfortunately.
Plus if you want to make it a state competition what about the best side out of Essendon District Western Region Eastern and the Mornington Peninsula Competitions no region made up names

 

[Walshawk]

No commercial network will broadcast this unfortunately.
Plus if you want to make it a state competition what about the best side out of Essendon District Western Region Eastern and the Mornington Peninsula Competitions no region made up names

Take out the AFL reserves and there will be no interest from any broadcasters in Victoria.
Local clubs do no want to forgo their locals rivalries to travel across the city or the state. Neither do their players, volunteers or supporters.
TOTS is spot on about creating new clubs - not viable.
There is no need for a statewide league without the AFL reserves. Unlike WA and SA there is no latent / second team support for the old VFA clubs. Port, Willi and maybe Werribee are the only possibilities to be viable one the league loses the exposure and sponsorship associated with playing against AFL reserves.

Pazza not so sure the AFL reserves will happen.
1. Not sure a reserves comp will be as attractive to broadcasters as the current VFL.
2. If AFL clubs are struggling for cash, having to fully fund a reserves team is not attractive.
3. If less cash the playing standard will drop off a players return to real senior clubs in front of bigger crowds for more money.