Why is Messi better than C. Ronaldo?

[Kompany]

Can't tell if your first line is sarcastic or not.

No no, you brought up valid arguments. I just mentioned it was a good post because generally people say Messi not winning a WC (it still may happen but it's more likely it won't) and Messi not taking a Napoli-like team to a championship proves that Maradona was better.

You say that re: WC, but England, Belgium and Germany had very good sides. That Belgian side had Cuelemans, Scifo, Pfaff and Gerets. Germany are never easy to knock down in a tournament either.

What he did against England was superb. Against Belgium his 2nd goal was sublime as well, but (you should look it up on youtube) Belgium had 2 scandalous offside decisions go against them when it was still 0-0, with resp 1 and 2 players appearing completely alone in front of the Argie goalie. It's hard to believe they wouldn't have scored from at least one of them. And that particular Belgium weren't world beaters to be honest - they just grew in the tournament after a very lousy start. Belgium in '90 were better, but unlucky. And in the final against Germany Maradona had a poor game.

As I said, Maradona was a passer who scored, Messi is the reverse. Yeah if players are considerably better athletes in today's day and age, don't you think Diego would be even better now than what he was then? The ball was glued to his foot, his vision, his touch, his technique, his deftness, his speed, his agility, his free kicks. His left foot was so good it didn't matter that his right was near useless.

Good call on Maradona being a passer who scored. They're just different players. Messi also started on the wing and played there until not even that long ago.

Yeah Maradona had all the talent but his lifestyle (cocaine and weight problem) possibly would have a bigger impact on his game today than it did back then.

Maybe Maradona was the more skillful of the two, but Messi appears much more professional.

Didn't Messi miss a month last year?

Could be - don't remember really.

 

[Cruyff14]

No no, you brought up valid arguments. I just mentioned it was a good post because generally people say Messi not winning a WC (it still may happen but it's more likely it won't) and Messi not taking a Napoli-like team to a championship proves that Maradona was better.

Messi not winning a World Cup (yet), somewhat hinders him, and the doubters will always bring it up. Don't think it makes him any less of a player. The ability is there for all to see and it can't be denied how good he is.

What he did against England was superb. Against Belgium his 2nd goal was sublime as well, but (you should look it up on youtube) Belgium had 2 scandalous offside decisions go against them when it was still 0-0, with resp 1 and 2 players appearing completely alone in front of the Argie goalie. It's hard to believe they wouldn't have scored from at least one of them. And that particular Belgium weren't world beaters to be honest - they just grew in the tournament after a very lousy start. Belgium in '90 were better, but unlucky. And in the final against Germany Maradona had a poor game.

This picture is priceless. If a picture could paint a thousand words...

Good call on Maradona being a passer who scored. They're just different players. Messi also started on the wing and played there until not even that long ago.

Yeah Maradona had all the talent but his lifestyle (cocaine and weight problem) possibly would have a bigger impact on his game today than it did back then.

Maybe Maradona was the more skillful of the two, but Messi appears much more professional.

For me Maradona is superior in every aspect.

I agree that Messi is much more professional etc. Had Diego had the head of Messi, he would have been an even better player, if that is possible.

 

[mcuzzy]

this will never, EVER get old!

 

[Mr_Bojangles]

This picture is priceless. If a picture could paint a thousand words...

Unfortunately it's not as wonderful and iconic as it looks. Diego had just kicked the ball straight in to the wall with a free kick and that's the wall breaking after the ball went straight back to him.

No no, you brought up valid arguments. I just mentioned it was a good post because generally people say Messi not winning a WC (it still may happen but it's more likely it won't)

Wat. They've got every chance in their home continent. In international football you have to find the best formation for your most talented players, they need to do that with Messi, they definately have the cattle just like every other tournament they enter. This is a lot of the same team that have won two Olympic gold medals and an U-20 title. Cruyff never won a world cup and people beat their male genitalia against their forehead for hours about him. Messi at 25ish has already over half as many medals as what Cruyff won.

Remember Messi has only played in two world cups. He was half fit in 2006 after injuring himself late in the season (he wasn't even fit enough to make the bench in the 2006 European Cup final against Arsenal) and Argentina were unlucky against Germany. In 2010, well, Germany flogged everyone except Serbia and Spain. Unless he burns out early like more players are tending to do in modern football with the volume of games he's the best I've seen even without winning something at the top senior level for La Albiceleste

C Ronaldo isn't fit to lace Messi's boots.

 

[Unstable]

Simply put Messi or Ronaldo in Wigan/Sporting Gijon or basically any struggling team and tell me which player would be more effective. And the answer is Ronaldo. Messi has been found out that when his teams doesn’t dominate possession or a game that he becomes completely ineffective. While for Ronaldo, it doesn’t matter if he team holds 86% possession or 35% possession he is a threat and can instantly change the game. Put Ronaldo in Barecalona, he would kick 45 goals in the la liga alone.

 

[Cooldude]

Messi has been found out that when his teams doesn’t dominate possession or a game that he becomes completely ineffective.

That isn't true at all, he just plays a different role deeper up the ground, be the bloke who makes everything happen, and doesn't get on the end of things as much. Which is basically how he plays for Argentina when no one has his kind of creative magic up the park. People keeps saying he plays shit for his country, which isn't true, he just plays differently

How many subpar midfields or subpar forward have Ronaldo played next to and be brilliant at over the years?

 

[Kompany]

Cruyff14, that picture was from the opening game in Spain '82 when we beat them 1-0. Legendary shot indeed!

Unfortunately it's not as wonderful and iconic as it looks. Diego had just kicked the ball straight in to the wall with a free kick and that's the wall breaking after the ball went straight back to him.

Come on mate, nobody cares... and it is a bit obvious . Just a great photo.

Wat. They've got every chance in their home continent. In international football you have to find the best formation for your most talented players, they need to do that with Messi, they definately have the cattle just like every other tournament they enter.

Sounds all good in theory but they still need to get their act together first. Their squad was good enough in '10 already. As it stands, Spain and Germany are miles ahead of them and Brazil will be up for it as well.

But even if they get to play as we expect they can, there is still no guarantee they'll win in '14. They won't be the only good side there, and only one can win it. If Real beat Barcelona in this year's CL, will that mean Barcelona is no longer good or that Messi will have failed? Not at all.

Simply put Messi or Ronaldo in Wigan/Sporting Gijon or basically any struggling team and tell me which player would be more effective. And the answer is Ronaldo. Messi has been found out that when his teams doesn’t dominate possession or a game that he becomes completely ineffective. While for Ronaldo, it doesn’t matter if he team holds 86% possession or 35% possession he is a threat and can instantly change the game. Put Ronaldo in Barecalona, he would kick 45 goals in the la liga alone.

I can't agree with this at all. Ronaldo has been poor against Barcelona in most games because Real didn't have enough of the ball. And his goal per game ratio for Portugal is lower than Messi's for Argentina.

It's too easy to say he'd score x amount for Barcelona. In la liga Real has been better than us this season, so I'm not sure why he'd score more for us.

He's also scored a large number from the penalty spot this season - take away both players' PK's and Messi comes out looking even better.

 

[Magma]

Simply put Messi or Ronaldo in Wigan/Sporting Gijon or basically any struggling team and tell me which player would be more effective. And the answer is Ronaldo. Messi has been found out that when his teams doesn’t dominate possession or a game that he becomes completely ineffective. While for Ronaldo, it doesn’t matter if he team holds 86% possession or 35% possession he is a threat and can instantly change the game. Put Ronaldo in Barecalona, he would kick 45 goals in the la liga alone.

prove it using statistics in all the bad teams that ronaldo has played for.

oh wait.

 

[gaelictiogar]

That isn't true at all, he just plays a different role deeper up the ground, be the bloke who makes everything happen, and doesn't get on the end of things as much. Which is basically how he plays for Argentina when no one has his kind of creative magic up the park. People keeps saying he plays shit for his country, which isn't true, he just plays differently

How many subpar midfields or subpar forward have Ronaldo played next to and be brilliant at over the years?

I understand club or national prejudice causing people to claim Messi plays poorly for Argentina however no one with any knowledge will agree.

Messi was top scorer and Player of the Tournament at the 2005 Youth World Cup. No Iniesta, no Xavi no "system" but Player of the Tournament.

He was Young Player of the Tournament at the 2007 Copa America.

he was on the 10 listed for the Golden Ball at the 2010 World Cup......incidentally Ronaldo was not.

He has 2 MOTM awards from the recent Copa America.

he has 20 international assists in 60+ games. What other major talent is assisting at that rate?

It is ludicrous to claim Messi has played poorly as an international and it is tiresome reading the claim from people claiming knowledge as against prejudice.

 

[Hodgepodge]

messi is made to look better with the likes of iniesta and xavi but he still is superior to ronaldo i believe.

Because Ronaldo is just running around with hacks at Real Madrid . . .

 

[Mr_Bojangles]

Cruyff14, that picture was from the opening game in Spain '82 when we beat them 1-0. Legendary shot indeed!



Come on mate, nobody cares... and it is a bit obvious . Just a great photo.



Sounds all good in theory but they still need to get their act together first. Their squad was good enough in '10 already. As it stands, Spain and Germany are miles ahead of them and Brazil will be up for it as well.

But even if they get to play as we expect they can, there is still no guarantee they'll win in '14. They won't be the only good side there, and only one can win it. If Real beat Barcelona in this year's CL, will that mean Barcelona is no longer good or that Messi will have failed? Not at all.



I can't agree with this at all. Ronaldo has been poor against Barcelona in most games because Real didn't have enough of the ball. And his goal per game ratio for Portugal is lower than Messi's for Argentina.

It's too easy to say he'd score x amount for Barcelona. In la liga Real has been better than us this season, so I'm not sure why he'd score more for us.

He's also scored a large number from the penalty spot this season - take away both players' PK's and Messi comes out looking even better.

All teams will be 'up for it' like Brazil and Brazil have probably been worse than Argentina since 2002. It's not like someone like denmark will go to Brazil and just go through the motions. Spain were nothing until just before Euro 2008 and look at them now.

There's also no guarentee anyone will win it in 2004, that's a baffling thing to say. It's a cup competition and they have just a good a chance of most. I'm not sure what your point is.

I understand club or national prejudice causing people to claim Messi plays poorly for Argentina however no one with any knowledge will agree.

Messi was top scorer and Player of the Tournament at the 2005 Youth World Cup. No Iniesta, no Xavi no "system" but Player of the Tournament.

He was Young Player of the Tournament at the 2007 Copa America.

he was on the 10 listed for the Golden Ball at the 2010 World Cup......incidentally Ronaldo was not.

He has 2 MOTM awards from the recent Copa America.

he has 20 international assists in 60+ games. What other major talent is assisting at that rate?

It is ludicrous to claim Messi has played poorly as an international and it is tiresome reading the claim from people claiming knowledge as against prejudice.

Thank you. I think a lot of people are ignorant to his international career because they've only really seen him in action at the World Cup where for one he was half fit and the other he was playing deeper. Anyone see the Brazil V Portugal or Spain V Portugal matches in South Africa? Ronaldo was at his petulant best and a complete passenger. Now there's a team that don't build around their biggest asset.

Ronaldo is unlucky (not in life) that Messi is around. Cristiano is a superfreak in his own right. He is Judd but Messi's Ablett.

I think that's what makes me have time for C Ronaldo because he knows deep down he'll always be seen as the second banana throughout his career to Messi. The Oats to his Hall, the Bono to his Cher etc

 

[Hodgepodge]

I think that's what makes me have time for C Ronaldo because he knows deep down he'll always be seen as the second banana throughout his career to Messi. The Oats to his Hall, the Bono to his Cher etc

Bono is better than Cher but.

 

[Mr_Bojangles]

Not Bono the midget Irish hypocrit, Sonny Bono who was Cher's ex music and personal partner, mayor of palm springs and cashed in his chips on a ski slope a few years ago.

 

[Kompany]

All teams will be 'up for it' like Brazil and Brazil have probably been worse than Argentina since 2002. It's not like someone like denmark will go to Brazil and just go through the motions. Spain were nothing until just before Euro 2008 and look at them now.

There's also no guarentee anyone will win it in 2004, that's a baffling thing to say. It's a cup competition and they have just a good a chance of most. I'm not sure what your point is.

I am starting to wonder if you actually understood what I said. I said that I believe it is more likely that Argentina will not win a WC in the next 6 seasons than that they will. That means that I estimate their chances at less than 50%.

How you can think their chances are +50% is beyond me. Let's hypothetically imagine the next WC is being held today. We could have 4 favourites (Brazil, Germany, Spain and Argentina - and I'm being very generous towards Argentina's chances here) and the chance of another team winning. These are 5 scenario's, which, to keep things simple, makes that every scenario has 20% chance of happening. Not Argentina having +50%.

Similarly, today it is more likely that Barcelona won't win this season's CL than that they will, simply because their chance of winning is less than 50% because there's still Real, Bayern, Chelsea, Milan and the chance of an upset.

Spain got their act together because they had quality in every department and the core of their team consists of players who play together every week and train together every day, and they've had 2 good coaches. You can't say this about Argentina. Spain were good in '06 already, probably the side playing the best football until they were beaten by France who were the better team on the night (and arguably the best team that WC). It's just that Spain got better later on, building on the side they had in '06 (Casillas, Puyol, Ramos, Alonso, Xavi, Iniesta, Torres and Villa were all there already).

Argentina was not up for it in South Africa. They weren't bad but Germany really showed their weak points and simply outplayed them. It wasn't just the fact that Germany scored that many, but mostly that Argentina hardly managed to create a decent opportunity that day.

Brazil has been better than Argentina - imo they were the strongest side that tournament but they were very unfortunate in a freak match against the Dutch, practically shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[Cruyff14]

Brazil are shit under Mano.

 

[mojito]

Brazil are shit under Mano.

They're a better outfit to watch than what they were under Dunga.

that said, I've only seen the odd Brasil game of late.

 

[Magma]

dunga made some of the worst decisions i've seen a coach make selectionwise for the world cup. grafite? josue? gilberto ****ing silva? no room for pato, neymar, ganso or lucas. was doomed from the start. plus on top of that they were playing awful football

bit harsh on mano, he's only lost 4 games (argentina, france, paraguay and germany) in 21, but they have been winning ugly (from what i've seen, which isnt much.) but hey, a win's a win.

 

[Cruyff14]

They're a better outfit to watch than what they were under Dunga.

that said, I've only seen the odd Brasil game of late.

Spoken to Brasilians on another forum and they are not happy with Mano at all. In regards to the way they play, who he calls up and so on.

Not very popular.

 

[gaelictiogar]

All teams will be 'up for it' like Brazil and Brazil have probably been worse than Argentina since 2002. It's not like someone like denmark will go to Brazil and just go through the motions. Spain were nothing until just before Euro 2008 and look at them now.

There's also no guarentee anyone will win it in 2004, that's a baffling thing to say. It's a cup competition and they have just a good a chance of most. I'm not sure what your point is.



Thank you. I think a lot of people are ignorant to his international career because they've only really seen him in action at the World Cup where for one he was half fit and the other he was playing deeper. Anyone see the Brazil V Portugal or Spain V Portugal matches in South Africa? Ronaldo was at his petulant best and a complete passenger. Now there's a team that don't build around their biggest asset.



I think that's what makes me have time for C Ronaldo because he knows deep down he'll always be seen as the second banana throughout his career to Messi. The Oats to his Hall, the Bono to his Cher etc

Me too. Though I don't warm to Cristiano I do feel a sympathy for him.

At United he was favourably compared to George Best which is a virtual impossibility in the UK given the pedestal Best stands on and he arrived in Madrid as the reigning World player of the Year hoping to earn favourable comparison with Di Stefano and burnish his ego.

What happens? He scores bagfulls for the biggest club in the world but is overshadowed....it is almost like a tragedy. He has soared so high - up the the Olympus inhabited by Best and Di Stefano the untouchable icons of the two biggest clubs in soccer - yet knows that he will always be remembered as the "other" guy in the rivalry with Messi.

 

[Mr_Bojangles]

Spoken to Brasilians on another forum and they are not happy with Mano at all. In regards to the way they play, who he calls up and so on.

Not very popular.

Most managers are never popular in Brazil because they expect success, you can say that about another 6 countries at that level. Big Phil got them to the World Cup in 2002 by playing very ugly football and look what happened there. Even under their 1994 coaching hero they were god awful in 2006.

I am starting to wonder if you actually understood what I said. I said that I believe it is more likely that Argentina will not win a WC in the next 6 seasons than that they will. That means that I estimate their chances at less than 50%.

How you can think their chances are +50% is beyond me. Let's hypothetically imagine the next WC is being held today. We could have 4 favourites (Brazil, Germany, Spain and Argentina - and I'm being very generous towards Argentina's chances here) and the chance of another team winning. These are 5 scenario's, which, to keep things simple, makes that every scenario has 20% chance of happening. Not Argentina having +50%.

Similarly, today it is more likely that Barcelona won't win this season's CL than that they will, simply because their chance of winning is less than 50% because there's still Real, Bayern, Chelsea, Milan and the chance of an upset.

Spain got their act together because they had quality in every department and the core of their team consists of players who play together every week and train together every day, and they've had 2 good coaches. You can't say this about Argentina. Spain were good in '06 already, probably the side playing the best football until they were beaten by France who were the better team on the night (and arguably the best team that WC). It's just that Spain got better later on, building on the side they had in '06 (Casillas, Puyol, Ramos, Alonso, Xavi, Iniesta, Torres and Villa were all there already).

Argentina was not up for it in South Africa. They weren't bad but Germany really showed their weak points and simply outplayed them. It wasn't just the fact that Germany scored that many, but mostly that Argentina hardly managed to create a decent opportunity that day.

Brazil has been better than Argentina - imo they were the strongest side that tournament but they were very unfortunate in a freak match against the Dutch, practically shooting themselves in the foot.

Did I say Argentina were more than a 50% chance of winning? Was I tripping balls? Don't remember that.

When Brazil went out in a 'freak' match it was just like anyone else could, that's the beauty of a cup competition and the fawning over a team that is more often then not an XI of physical bullies gives me the absolute shits. Being a cup competition is also why someone derided as the German team was in 2002 after their shambolic Euro 2000 can make the final. I'm just a little baffled why you would write off someone with as much talent as Argentina so far away from the tournament.

I'm not putting money on Argentina for 2014 might I add, the odds and chances for Uruguay at 51/1 are too great to pass up if Forlan and Lugano stay fit.

 

[Kompany]

Did I say Argentina were more than a 50% chance of winning? Was I tripping balls? Don't remember that.

I'm just a little baffled why you would write off someone with as much talent as Argentina so far away from the tournament.

You quoted me saying this:

I just mentioned it was a good post because generally people say Messi not winning a WC (it still may happen but it's more likely it won't)

That is exactly what I meant. It is more likely that Messi will not win a WC than that he will. That's all there's to it.

I have no idea why you started saying that they have every chance to win one. Of course they do, so does England, but that's got nothing to do with what I said.

I also have no idea why you think I am writing them off. I'm not.

 

[apollo_creed]

Clearly Kompany doesn't rate Messi as a footballer.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Another hat-trick for Messi. He'll win the FIFA Ballon D'or/World Player again lol

So let's recap.

2007-2008 2nd
2009-2011 1st

Amazing record, already ahead of the leaders in Zidane and Ronaldo who won it 3 times and finished second once

 

[mcuzzy]

**** it, he's the best ever, or at least will be by the end of his career

/thread

 

[Super Hans]

I hope by the end of his career he does play in the EPL, just to prove all the doubters he would kill it there too.

Easily the best in the world, a pure joy to watch.