Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I love we have to be tolerant of Stone Age beliefs because “it’s religion”

Do we tolerate all the "Dream time" stuff?

 

[10571z]

Do we tolerate all the "Dream time" stuff?

unfortunately apparently we do. Rainbow Serpant has already stopped major projects.

 

[Carringbush2010]

unfortunately apparently we do. Rainbow Serpant has already stopped major projects.

Really? Can you link evidence that rainbow serpent has stopped major projects? What major projects are they?

 

[ZEV]

Really? Can you link evidence that rainbow serpent has stopped major projects? What major projects are they?

Barossa gas project

 

[10571z]

Barossa gas project

This.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Barossa gas project

link us all to the rainbow serpent and the barossa gas project.

 

[sr36]

I’ve read this three times and still don’t know what your point is.

Islam stinks.

My point is that most small L liberals are neither pro or anti LGBT, Islam, etc... it doesn't define someone. Who cares?

When you cut it down. Liberals have tended to be accepting of people and difference. Conservatives have tended to want to eradicate difference. I'd make a distinction between liberals and progressives, as there's a wave of conservative progressives coming through, who are demanding conformity.

 

[Gethelred]

It’s impressive what believing in someone in the sky can allow you to get away with. If an atheist is against LGBT and women’s rights theyll be crucified by the left.

... where to start?

Conflation between progressive and left wing? Tick.
Conflation between atheism and progressive? Tick.

To be an atheist is not to believe in a god or think it serves as a credible hypothesis for existence. That's it. You can be a right wing, conservative, illiberal atheist and you can be a left wing progressive liberal atheist. It isn't on any of the three main spectrums - right vs left, liberal vs illiberal, progressive vs conservative - and doesn't interact with them. You could just as easily write 'if a person is against LGBT and women's rights they'll (notice the apostrophe, mate) be crucified by the left' and it would make just as much sense.

Why do you think Islam gets a pass on LGBT rights and women's rights? Think you islamic women or gay people cannot campaign for their own rights? Do you think we don't support them?

It's incredibly interesting to me how much of this 'look over there at the HYPOCRISY!!1!' falls apart without much effort. You'd have thought you would do the work to actually - you know - find something hypocritical to gesticulate at wildly. It's actually a bit of a pisser how little y'all have gestured at Biden pardoning his son - which is truly hypocritical - given your obsession with hypocrisy; telling, because y'all would've done the same. It just goes to show, really, what matters to you: it isn't the hypocrisy, it's the opportunity to punch down and get progressives on defense.

Then - finally - we get to the actual point: does hypocrisy alone make one wrong? Are hypocrites immune from being correct?

 

[Gethelred]

Barossa gas project

This.

I look forward to your "Why I blame the Rainbow Serpent for the fact it's raining today..." thread. Should be a hoot!

 

[Carringbush2010]

When you cut it down. Liberals have tended to be accepting of people and difference.

Agreed

as there's a wave of conservative progressives coming through, who are demanding conformity.

I'd put it as willing to compromise rather than demanding conformity.

I can't see progressives 'demanding conformity' because demanding is immediately received as combative and that'd be counter productive.

To the subject at hand, in this country as an example, society by and large has been very accommodating (or 'liberal' if you will) to islam and not just islam

 

[10571z]

... where to start?

Conflation between progressive and left wing? Tick.
Conflation between atheism and progressive? Tick.

To be an atheist is not to believe in a god or think it serves as a credible hypothesis for existence. That's it. You can be a right wing, conservative, illiberal atheist and you can be a left wing progressive liberal atheist. It isn't on any of the three main spectrums - right vs left, liberal vs illiberal, progressive vs conservative - and doesn't interact with them. You could just as easily write 'if a person is against LGBT and women's rights they'll (notice the apostrophe, mate) be crucified by the left' and it would make just as much sense.

Why do you think Islam gets a pass on LGBT rights and women's rights? Think you islamic women or gay people cannot campaign for their own rights? Do you think we don't support them?

It's incredibly interesting to me how much of this 'look over there at the HYPOCRISY!!1!' falls apart without much effort. You'd have thought you would do the work to actually - you know - find something hypocritical to gesticulate at wildly. It's actually a bit of a pisser how little y'all have gestured at Biden pardoning his son - which is truly hypocritical - given your obsession with hypocrisy; telling, because y'all would've done the same. It just goes to show, really, what matters to you: it isn't the hypocrisy, it's the opportunity to punch down and get progressives on defense.

Then - finally - we get to the actual point: does hypocrisy alone make one wrong? Are hypocrites immune from being correct?

Why would you bring people into your country who openly oppose your ideals about those subjects then?

 

[Gethelred]

Why would you bring people into your country who openly oppose your ideals about those subjects then?

Isn't this the definition of thoughtcrime, 10571z?

 

[ZEV]

Isn't this the definition of thoughtcrime, 10571z?

Section 501 isn't it boss?

 

[10571z]

Isn't this the definition of thoughtcrime, 10571z?

We already ban people from this country for their thoughts. What's the difference.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

The Venn diagram between the ‘**** off we’re sick of these backwards Muslims’ and ‘it’s not Adam and STEVE’ is basically a perfect circle.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[sr36]

Why would you bring people into your country who openly oppose your ideals about those subjects then?

It actually goes both ways.

If being politically strategic, the Greens would oppose immigration and conservatives would be all for it, as most of our migrant communities are more aligned with conservatives on most social issues.

You should be all for Islamic migration - to increase conservatism.

 

[Gethelred]

We already ban people from this country for their thoughts. What's the difference.

This is an evasion.

I'm not asking the country for their thoughts, 10571z. I'm asking you for yours.

Do you believe people should be penalised for what they think in the silence of their minds?

 

[10571z]

This is an evasion.

I'm not asking the country for their thoughts, 10571z. I'm asking you for yours.

Do you believe people should be penalised for what they think in the silence of their minds?

No.

 

[ZEV]

who openly oppose your ideals about those subjects then?

Big jump from this ^

To this;

Do you believe people should be penalised for what they think in the silence of their minds?

 

[Gethelred]

Big jump from this ^

To this;

You prohibit speech, someone who wants to come here is simply not going to say the thing that will prevent them from doing so. Unless you actively ask all muslims what they think concerning LBGTQI+ or women's rights - and you can compell them towards honesty - you at best have an assumption as to their attitudes towards those things.

We can bandy about terms and conditions all day, but - to paraphrase Walter Benjamin - there's something to be illustrated by going directly to the extreme scenario, as it usually holds true over all others.

If you like, I'll put it another way: do you assume that someone who is a muslim - knowing nothing else about them; male or female, gay, straight, fundamentalist or secular - is automatically against LBGTQI+ and woman's rights, and would you allow that assumption to influence your behaviour?

 

[Gethelred]

No.

Why, then, would you advocate for something you disagree with in principle?

 

[ZEV]

We can bandy about terms and conditions all day, but - to paraphrase Walter Benjamin - there's something to be illustrated by going directly to the extreme scenario, as it usually holds true over all others.

If you like, I'll put it another way: do you assume that someone who is a muslim - knowing nothing else about them; male or female, gay, straight, fundamentalist or secular - is automatically against LBGTQI+ and woman's rights, and would you allow that assumption to influence your behaviour?

Respectfully, you are only looking at one possible extreme scenario. Additionally, extremism rarely does anyone any favours in my personal experience.

I’m not sure why you are going down this path with me, I was just pointing out the current legislation in place.

 

[10571z]

Why, then, would you advocate for something you disagree with in principle?

You’re comparing “thoughts” to people who actively practice a religion.

 

[Gethelred]

You’re comparing “thoughts” to people who actively practice a religion.

If you speak to them, they could tell you they're perfectly okay with LBGTQI+ people and support increased rights for women; that might, in fact, be why they're here and not in their own country. They could also be lying through their teeth, which is where their thoughts become involved: you have no way to guarantee that your assumption concerning islamic homophobia/sexism is true or false without reading theirs or anyone else's mind.

You need to realise that the government cannot treat every muslim as archetypical, or you're asking the government to profile based on your assumptions of their beliefs.

Respectfully, you are only looking at one possible extreme scenario. Additionally, extremism rarely does anyone any favours in my personal experience.

To quote Benjimen again, any rule that fails to hold true in the most extreme of scenarios is an unworthwhile rule, and - as stated - @10751z's going to be butting their head up against that extreme whether they like it or not.

I’m not sure why you are going down this path with me, I was just pointing out the current legislation in place.

You responded here:

Big jump from this ^

To this;

... so I replied, justifying the jump.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Potato potarto. Born and raised in an Islamic nation with Islamic values, surrounded by people who think the same.

It's a strange affair. In one tweet Taleb al-Abdulmohsen wrote -

I have to admit that I was deceived by western Leftists. I thought they welcome refugees because they care for human rights. But my experience in Germany showed me that they welcome refugees because they want to Islamise Europe.​

The real hero is this man, (quoting Geert Wilders, the Dutch politician) “Islam is a lie. Mohammed is a criminal. The Koran is poison."​

How do you go from that to murdering dozens of Christians?

One rabbit hole is that Taleb was actually a Shia extremist who carefully nurtured an atheist, anti-Islam image over the years to hoodwink everyone, using the concept and licence of taqiyyah to further his Islamist goals. This idea seems unlikely but we will see from his court case whether he is allowed to speak freely.