Why Carlton-Essendon is the biggest rivalry.

[Bee]

You really don't understand, do you Easty? It is just a waste of my time, trying to explain to you, so I give up!

 

[Bernie]

Dan,

The rivalry between Carlton and Collingwood did NOT begin in 1970. As you know , they are ajoining suburbs. It's been going on since the dawn of time - in every pub and household in the area. This is similar to Collingwood and Richmond and Collingwood and Fitzroy - you could walk to the local grounds via pubs that you knew were more friendly to your side - possibly even run by an ex player.

The major difference was - for Blues supporters - that the Carlton ground was set in parkland with the Uni. in full view ( almost parstoral ) whereas the Pie home was truly the belly of the beast. Set deep in the working class factory belt where all trees had been evicted, walking to that ground was ALWAYS a huge experience and snagging a win there was legendary. I remember that if we could get back over Brunswick St after the game without threats of or actual violence, you'd made it and you could relax. Some never made it.

The Pie fans always found it annoying that the pubs stopped in Lygon St ( they'd NEVER go to Royal Parade or Brunswick for a drink ) and you had this dry streach in Princes Hill before getting to the ground.
Geographically, Victoria Park always seemed to be the epicentre and no one who wasn't 'of the faith' lingered too long in the area.

Players come and go, success follows failure but Pies / Blues games conjures up images of the weekly migration of fans across these ancient boundaries.

 

[eastaugh36]

bee, youre the one that doesnt understand, you are such a stubborn b*%&$ ! You are a perfect match for that fool of a president you have, go on a date with the swine

 

[Bee]

Oh Easty I love it when you call me names. Was that stubborn bitch? I've been called worse than that Easty. Why would I go on a date with Jack, he's too old for me? Beside, I've got better looking men to go out with than him.

 

[Bomber Babe]

Easty u still havent givin me your icq number or added me.

 

[sheedswasright]

Dan I can see why Ess-Coll rivalry is not as big...I suppose its b/c Collingwood is more than 15 wins ahead of Essendon head to head. I now follow your logic. Of course the Collingwood Carlton rivalry has been going longer than you verbose postings and regardless of performances over the years endures and will never be surpassed, certainly not to a johnny come lately crowd.

 

[eastaugh36]

yeah sure, anyone can talk

 

[Dan26]

Bernie,

I kow Carl-Coll didn't begin in 1970. I said it began "BIG-TIME" in 1970. They were always rivals, but up until 1970, Collingwood had the edge over Carlton in all ways. More premeirships, more wins, more everything.

They were huge rivals, sure, but the period 1970-1981 realy cemented that rivalry as the biggest at the time.

In recent years, however, Ess-Carl, which has ALWAYS been huge has moved on up to numbr one. Ess-Carl is not like North-Haw, it's not based on one decade. it's based on 100 years.......hence it is more enduring - like Coll-Carl.

Dutchmans made a good point. From 1981-1985, Carlton didn't beat Essendon. I think the Bombers won about 12 straight. This was devastating for such a pround club like Carlton. They hated the Bombers, and wanted to beat them, hence Elliots cash offers to Carlton players if they could topple the Bombers.

And the fact that Carlton considered stopping Essendon in 1999 as a "premiership" for the Blues pretty much sums up how they feel about the Bombers !

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Look, for God's sake, Carlton fans would hate anybody who had been beating them regularly or were having success. Like every other fan, that is because that is where we would like to be and/or believe we should be.

DAN, do you believe that if Essendon had several lean seasons like Collingwood that Carlton would still regard them as great rivals??? It is only the current and yes 'temporary' circumstances that have brought about this rivalry. Carlton and Collingwood rivalry is part of the induction process when you start supporting the club. You might not know much about it, but you feel it, you know it is there and that it is important. That quite simply wouldn't exist if Essendon were in Collingwood's place. There is nothing paranoid about it. i don't even understand that statement!

We are not "dismissing" Essendon. They are a big part of where things stand at this point. It just hasn't turned into a long standing thing yet. Sure, the Blues most recent supporters may consider Essendon the biggest rivalry but that is all they have known. Surely, it is the supporters that have had time to experience the culture of the club that must have their views taken more seriously.

This whole thing is all about Essendon wanting us to fear them. To be the number one worry on our minds at all times. This just kills you guys doesn't it. You have heard the opinions. Do you think we are saying it just to stir you up? Does the world once again revolve around the Bombers?

Don't you dare tell us what we should be thinking about our own club. You are not there. You have no way of knowing. Talk about putting words into peoples mouth whether they like it or not.

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mens sana in corpore sano - a sound mind in a sound body

 

[Stealth bomber]

I would think there still might be a lot of animosity left over between Carlton and Essendon, at least from older supporters, based on the incident with John Coleman and the Carlton player that got him suspended for a Grand Final.

I know a couple of Essendon supporters in their late 50s who despise Carlton to this day just for that one incident.

 

[WCE2000]

When it comes to biggest rivalries, win-loss records, premierships have nothing to do with it. Its the emotion that exists between the two clubs.

If rivalries were based on win-loss records, than why has the Australia-England rivalry always been the biggest in cricket. By your theory South Africa and Australia should have the biggest rivalry, which they don't.

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A must for anybody into statistics - http://cromulent.freehosting.net/

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by The Old Dark Navy's:

DAN, do you believe that if Essendon had several lean seasons like Collingwood that Carlton would still regard them as great rivals???

Of course I do. They've been great rivals for a very long time. BOTH clubs were down in 1997-98 and the rivarly flourished with 4 great games.......3 of them famous and controversial in that 2 year period. I still cnsidered Carlton a huge rival even though you were poor in 1997-98 and I know that feeling was reciprocated.

You seem to think Carlton fans "care" about beating Collingwood at the moment. I've been to Carl-Coll matches too, and there just isn't the same "spite". Collingwood is a meaningless match at the moment. Are you aware that the ridiculously over hyped "last suburban battle" in Round 18, didn't even sell out? Are you aware of this? If you weren't aware, then you are now. There were "some" Carlton people (not all) actually feeling sorry for Collingwood after the flogging you guys gave them.

Rivalries come and go. As Collingowod get weaker and weaker, the rivalry diminishes. If Collingwod keep being shit, the rivalry won't stay forever. Fitzroy vs Collingwood used to be THE rivalry, and look at what happened to it as the years went by !

Remember Essendon and Collingwood are huge rivals too, and I don't care about beating the Pies anywhere near as much as I did 10 years ago. Success breeds historical rivalrys. From a neutral point of view, Essendon and Carlton have had the most success and the "one-upsmanship" that these clubs enjoy at trying to out-do the other is something that no other rivalry can match in my opinion. And I am saying that as a football supporter, not as an Essendon supporter. I'd be saying the same thing if I barracked for Footscray, or Carlton, or anyone for that matter. You don't need to barrack for a club to know who the great rivals are. Do you need to barrack for Rangers to know that they are rivas with Celtic?

 

[Fred]

Originally posted by WCE2000:
When it comes to biggest rivalries, win-loss records, premierships have nothing to do with it. Its the emotion that exists between the two clubs.

Absolutely correct WCE2000

Dan
Rivalries are not based on facts, but feelings. In the early days, St Kilda and South Melbourne were rivals, being at opposite ends of the lake. This certainly wasn't based on the teams ladder positions or success. It was a perception of their supporters. You would look on Ess/Carlton as being rivals now because you can feel it, Supporters of other teams probably couldn't care less, as they have their own rivalries.
There is no "greatest".

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I am grateful that I am not as judgmental as all these censorious, self-righteous people around me.

[This message has been edited by Fred (edited 28 January 2001).]

 

[Dan26]

Fred,

OK, fair enough. There are a number of variables which cause rivalries to develop. Location, as you mentioned is one of them.

But the BEST rivalries are when two teams have both been successful and they have been at each other for 100 years. LA Lakers-Boston Celtics, Rangers-Celtic, Essendon-Carlton, Collingwood-Carlton.

Those type of rivalries are the best.

The Carlton-Richmond rivalry is a good example of how one teams (Richmond) can be poor for so long, yet the rivalry continues to be big. This is in response to ODN's ridiculous assumption that if Essendon had some bad years, then "all of a sudden", the Ess-Carl rivalry would stop. As if ! Eventually, the rivalry would diminish as one team (or both) continue to be unsuccessful, but it takes a long, long time. Fitzroy-Collingwood "eventually" came to a dead halt as a riavlry, since Fitzroy did basically nothing after the 1920's in terms of success. We are seeing Carl-Coll diminish obviously as the Pies continue to be shit. But it just doesn't have the "spite" of Essendon vs Carlton.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Originally posted by Dan24:
Fred,

The Carlton-Richmond rivalry is a good example of how one teams (Richmond) can be poor for so long, yet the rivalry continues to be big. This is in response to ODN's ridiculous assumption that if Essendon had some bad years, then "all of a sudden", the Ess-Carl rivalry would stop. As if ! Eventually, the rivalry would diminish as one team (or both) continue to be unsuccessful, but it takes a long, long time. Fitzroy-Collingwood "eventually" came to a dead halt as a riavlry, since Fitzroy did basically nothing after the 1920's in terms of success. We are seeing Carl-Coll diminish obviously as the Pies continue to be shit. But it just doesn't have the "spite" of Essendon vs Carlton.

Extremely ignorant. My "ridiculous assumption" is that Essendon ,while being our biggest playing rival at this point in time would cease to be so if they were struggling. The Collingwood/Carlton rivalry is as big as the current Essendon/Carlton rivalry for more reasons than just ladder positions and competiveness. Of course, as traditional and original teams, Carlton and Essendon will always be rivals but the degree may fluctuate based on current circumstances more so than the Blues/Magpies rivalry. Do you get that? This mindset has been revealed to you by a few Blues fans and other supporters in this threads and other threads, yet you continue to ignore it.

Once again I will tell you....AS A SUPPORTER OF ANOTHER CLUB, YOU CAN NOT TELL US WHAT WE SHOULD THINK ABOUT OUR OWN CLUB!!! It can not be argued. It is not your place. If Collingwood supporters turned around and told me that they no longer considered Carlton their greatest rival, despite my own beliefs, I can not tell them that they are wrong. It is their belief as supporters of 'their' club.

To tell somebody that they have to think what you think is an unwinnable situation for you!

It is getting quite grating on the nerves too but I will keep my resolve....for now!

 

[Dan26]

ODN's,

I'm listening to what you say, believe me. And I respect your opinion.

However, I am quite peturbed that you think I am telling you what you think. Everyone is an individual and has their own opinions and beliefs. But I will say that you don't need to barrack for Carlton, Collingowod, or Essendon to have an opinion on the rivalry's. Do I need to be a Rangers fans to know about their rivalry with Celtic? No, of course not !

I think the Carlton-Collingwood rivalry is becoming a bit of an historical attention grabber. It's almost as if Collingwood and Carlton fans "want" it to still be huge so they always say "clash of the traditional rivals", and all that stuff. But when the teams run out on the field, it really just isn't what it used to be. The rivalry can't live up to the "hype". YES!, that's the word i'm looking for - hype. The Carlton-Collingwood rivalry is all hype these days, and it just can't live up to the hype. It's a manufactured hype based on what happenend in the "good old days". I really do think that a lot of Carlton people just "say" they love to bat Collingwood because they want the "good old days" to return. But in reality, there is not the spite, or actual hatred that exists when the Bombers play Carlton these days. I can comment on this, because I have been following footy since I was 5 years old, and the Carl-Coll rivalry has been a big part of football. I'm as knowledgeable about that rivalry as anyone in my opinion.

I'm saying all this as a football fan......not as an Essendon fan. My loyalty towards Essendon is completely irrelevant to everything I have typed here.

Richmond hate Carlton. Do I need to be a Richmond fan to know this?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

No, but you do need to be a Richmond fan to 'feel' that and have a real understanding as to why and what degree. And yes, you do have the right to have an opinion on who the greatest rivals are. You just don't have the right to tell us that what we believe is all bullshit! You are trying to convince us to believe you over our senses and our football hearts. If we ever decide for ourselves that Essendon is our all-time greatest rival, we will make that decision based on how we feel, not a bunch of stats and theories convincing us. It is basic human psychology and you can't argue with it. What if we are only victims of hype? The fact still remains that we believe in that hype and that is what makes the rivalry. Maybe the people marketing the Collingwood/Carlton rivalry are a lot better than the ones marketing the Essendon/Carlton rivalry? Doesn't matter. All that matters is that if Carlton fans believe it and Collingwood fans believe it, then we are each others greatest rivals. Even the clubs themselves can't argue with the power of the people. It is the fans who control the way the game is viewed ultimately. They are the ones that provide the passion over a long period of time to make rivalries so. They are the ones that rev up the players because of their intensity. You can disagree all you like, just doesn't make it true.

You can say that Carlton are Essendon's greatest rivals, we can say that Collingwood are our greatest rivals and Collingwood can in turn say that the Edithvale Rovers Under 12's are their greatest rivals. If the majority of fans agree, there is not a damn thing you can do about it. Only time can bring about a change of heart.

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mens sana in corpore sano - a sound mind in a sound body

 

[Fred]

Dan

If you had prefaced your original post on this topic with "I think" or "in my opinion", then you would be quite correct.
If you used those words, you could have said anything at all and been correct. But you didn't. You are trying to tell us what OUR greatest rivalries are and that you cannot do, because you don't know. Everything you wrote was your opinion - nothing more.

------------------
I am grateful that I am not as judgmental as all these censorious, self-righteous people around me.

[This message has been edited by Fred (edited 28 January 2001).]

 

[Dan26]

ODN's,

From my experience, the majority of Carlton supporters consider Essendon their greatest rival. I'm not saying they always did, but they do now. Some (like you) consider Carl-Coll the biggest, but certainly not all blue fans feel this way!

You can't speak for all Carlton supporters. just because you think the Carl-Coll rivalry is the biggest, doesn't mean that view is shared by your fellow blue-baggers. Every Carlton supporter is different. You can't speak for "ALL" of them. So, instead, I'll speak for "most" of them !

That's my perception anyway !

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I'm glad you added that last line. I am speaking from my feelings as a Blues fan, my knowledge from talking to other Blues fans and the feelings of Blues fans expressed on this topic.

Maybe, you will have to get Easty to do one of his surveys to get a truer indication. Maybe Dan, your peers at around 25 or so would believe right now that Essendon is the greatest rival. That is based on recent successes against us and the relative ladder positions. Truthfully, how many old time supporters have expressed this to you? I have admitted that Essendon are at this point in time, our biggest rivals but I feel are not our all-time greatest rivals. The day may come but it has not come yet for me or many supporters with memories taking us further back or students of our history. It is relative and you saying you are speaking for 'most' Carlton supporters is just not right. I challenge you to sit outside the next Carlton v Essendon game and do a survey of all ages of Blues fans. Then do the same at the next Collingwood v Carlton game. You might get a truer indication. You need to choose your words a little more carefully. I for one would not dare to force my opinion on you about your own club and override your opinion.

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mens sana in corpore sano - a sound mind in a sound body

 

[Dan26]

I HONESTLY belive that if I did that, that MOST Blues fans, encompassing all ages, would say Essendon ahead of Collingwood. This is the year 2001, not 1981.

Everyone yearns for the good old days, but the good old days are gone.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Well Dan, you may HONESTLY feel that but that is still opinion and speculation. The work hasn't been done. Even surveys as inaccurate as they are are based on percnetages of responses from different groups. On this board alone, Carlton fans have not been coming out of the woodwork to verify your opinion. Until then mate, it stays opinion and therefore can not be stated as fact.

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mens sana in corpore sano - a sound mind in a sound body

 

[Dan26]

Well that means you'rs can't be stated as fact either.

I can swear you've been telling me that Carl-Coll is the biggest rivalry, without any data from supporters to back that up. This is very hypocritical of you, because you are accusing me of something, which you are just as guilty of yourself.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

No, I have the right to vote on our biggest rival as a Carlton supporter. My vote counts. You can vote for Carlton as Essendon's biggest rival as a Bomber fan. However, you can't vote Essendon as Carlton's biggest rival. They are not in your electorate so to speak. Notice that I am not saying that Carlton are Collingwood's greatest rival? That is up to the Collingwood supporters to say. I will not presume to tell them about their own club.

 

[Dan26]

ODN's,

Yeah but you can't spak for all Carlton supporters, which is what you have been doing. You're doing exactly what you accuse me of doing. Naughty.