Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

I know this one.



The fool. No wait the other one. No the fool.



Hang on.

He's right though. The vast majority of posts in this thread have simply become frustrated rebuffs of one idiot poster.

He/she/they continue to derail this (and other threads) spectacularly with their nonsense.

Please ignore him/her/them.

 

[IlovethePies]

He's right though. The vast majority of posts in this thread have simply become frustrated rebuffs of one idiot poster.

He/she/they continue to derail this (and other threads) spectacularly with their nonsense.

Please ignore him/her/them.

It's Ghosty (Caspar) again making a rare intervention into the thread. He hardly ever posts...mostly just affixes emojis here and there..

Now he is complaining that the thread is derailed...

even though he actually says almost nothing.

Except to request posters to ignore "him/her/them" (love the genuflection to identity politics)

Hey Caspar, why don't you make your presence felt, instead of hoping that other posters are censored?

 

[RonSon]

Maybe only a drone now.

But how long will it be before the Zelensky regime, driven by the Biden administration's insane imperative to escalate the war in his last 30 days, launches a long range missile into residential Kazan instead?

A single long range missile into a residential area would be an escalation? After how many of Putin's long range missile attacks on civilians?

Okay Pies...

 

[IlovethePies]

A single long range missile into a residential area would be an escalation? After how many of Putin's long range missile attacks on civilians?

Okay Pies...

Yes it would, RS.

Because when NATO long range missiles start hitting distant cities such as Kazan, this will only provide fuel to those right wing fascists in Russia who want to pressure Putin into using even more devastating weapons against Ukraine.

There is just no way out by supporting an escalation of this war.

The only progressive way out of it is to fight for an end to it.

....that is what motivates me in everything I post here.

 

[rodney86]

Russia can end this at any time by taking their army and going home.

 

[IlovethePies]

Russia can end this at any time by taking their army and going home.

Reasonable point.

But the reality is that Russia can't do this.

Where would they have to withdraw to?

If it were to the borders that existed before the war started, this would represent a catastrophic strategic defeat to the Putin regime, because Ukraine would still be armed and utilised by US/NATO imperialism as a platform for launching military incursions, provocations against the Putin regime.

Putrin will not back down to accepting the previous situation (by withdrawing the Russian military presence from Ukraine), because the previous situation was what ignited the war in the first place.

US/NATO imperialism is on the warpath to overthrow Putin and dismember the Russian federation

Putin is fully aware of this agenda.

This is why it is impossible for Russia to end the war by "going home".

It is why this war is not a localised war in Ukraine, but in reality is part of an emerging global war, ie World War 3, which will destroy humanity unless the international working class builds its own revolutionary party.

 

[rank and file]

Reasonable point.

But the reality is that Russia can't do this.

Where would they have to withdraw to?

If it were to the borders that existed before the war started, this would represent a catastrophic strategic defeat to the Putin regime, because Ukraine would still be armed and utilised by US/NATO imperialism as a platform for launching military incursions, provocations against the Putin regime.

Putrin will not back down to accepting the previous situation (by withdrawing the Russian military presence from Ukraine), because the previous situation was what ignited the war in the first place.

US/NATO imperialism is on the warpath to overthrow Putin and dismember the Russian federation

Putin is fully aware of this agenda.

This is why it is impossible for Russia to end the war by "going home".

It is why this war is not a localised war in Ukraine, but in reality is part of an emerging global war, ie World War 3, which will destroy humanity unless the international working class builds its own revolutionary party.

Not sure who is paying for the international working class revolution,they need guns let alone bullets.
Maybe Albo will dig deep for a vote catcher.
End of the day Israel will get what it wants
and Putin will be happy agreed by US and SA.
China not even scratching their head playing the long game.

 

[Visions]

Genocide is a word that shouldn't get thrown around loosely. It took an entire case prepared by South Africa and then weeks of deliberation for the ICJ to finally rule that there was strong evidence of a genocide in Gaza, and that the matter needed to be investigated further. Even after the total tidal wave of proof that was presented by the South African legal team, the ICJ still couldn't bring itself to declare that it was definitely genocide.

You are now throwing the word "genocide" around in relation to the Russian invasion of Ukraine without any evidence whatsoever.

You are using the word "genocide" as an epithet to express your uncontrolled hatred of the side you want to lose.

You are also using it to intimidate anyone who opposes your views on the conflict.

What is your evidence that Russia is carrying out genocide in Ukraine, as genocide is strictly defined in international law?

I know that the usual band of idiots will come here and accuse me of being a "genocide-enabler" or "pro-genocide" etc.

If you have definitive proof that Putin is carrying out genocide, you should post it here, and I will be among the first to acknowledge it.

Because you see, I am beholden to no one, neither to Putin, nor to Zelensky.

Here's some light reading for you conducted by 35 independent experts in international law and genocide. It is indeed a genocide and I will keep on using the term.

An Independent Legal Analysis of the Russian Federation’s Breaches of the Genocide Convention in Ukraine

Here's the follow up report a year later:

Updated Report on Russia's Commission of Genocide in Ukraine

Cant say I'm surprised that you find it hard to believe that Russia has trying to eradicate the Ukrainian people and culture, yet have no problem believing and sprouting that taking out a Russian General who is responsible for the use of chemical weapons is a war crime....

 

[Visions]

The international socialist party of the working class has to be built, in both Ukraine and Russia. Its political goal will be to unite the Ukrainian and Russian workers to overthrow both Putin and Zelensky, seize control of the economic resources in both nations, and utilise them for the needs of the entire population who have suffered enough already.

Can you put this as your signature? That way you could cut your posts by more than half as you would stop repeating yourself.

And likewise, this party must be built across Europe: Germany, Britain, France, to seize political power in all these countries, stop the war, expropriate the billionaires. Use the vast resources of society to end war and instead pour it into what the working class in every country needs.

This is not fantasy. This is entirely possible given the technological capacities of mankind. The issue is that the level of political consciousness in the working class must be raised before this can take place.

 

[Visions]

Reasonable point.

But the reality is that Russia can't do this.

Where would they have to withdraw to?

If it were to the borders that existed before the war started, this would represent a catastrophic strategic defeat to the Putin regime, because Ukraine would still be armed and utilised by US/NATO imperialism as a platform for launching military incursions, provocations against the Putin regime.

Putrin will not back down to accepting the previous situation (by withdrawing the Russian military presence from Ukraine), because the previous situation was what ignited the war in the first place.

US/NATO imperialism is on the warpath to overthrow Putin and dismember the Russian federation

Putin is fully aware of this agenda.

This is why it is impossible for Russia to end the war by "going home".

It is why this war is not a localised war in Ukraine, but in reality is part of an emerging global war, ie World War 3, which will destroy humanity unless the international working class builds its own revolutionary party.

TLDR;

Russia cant go back to pre-war borders because of NATO presence in Ukraine at its doorstep, Ukraine needs to capitulate so that Russia can go to new borders with NATO presence in Poland and Romania at its doorstep instead.

 

[Visions]

According to many of the pro-NATO posters here, Ukraine would only ever hit Russian military targets with long range weaponry supplied by the US and NATO.

They have claimed that the Ukrainian regime would only use this weaponry in a "responsible manner", and would confine itself to targetting Russian military installations and assets.

Here we see the targetting of a residential area in Kazan, a city distant from the conflict.

Maybe only a drone now.

But how long will it be before the Zelensky regime, driven by the Biden administration's insane imperative to escalate the war in his last 30 days, launches a long range missile into residential Kazan instead?

And how do you know that the residential building was targeted? And not put off course by Russian electronic jamming systems which caused it to crash into the building when its actual target was the close by gunpowder plant which was also hit as part of the same attack?

 

[Visions]

Drone gets in between them and then we see the training of some elite North Korean soldiers kick in.......

Spoiler: Shooting of soldier

This is interesting if accurate. Thought Trump would have turned the tap off 1st day in office considering how much he idolises Putin. Anything else is a bonus.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Assassination of Kirollov by Ukrainian intelligence was a terrorist act taken from the playbook of Mossad. Under international law, killing a military leader outside the battlefield in a terrorist bombing is classified as an act of "perfidy" , prohibited under Geneva Conventions.

But this flagrant war crime was hailed by the British and American media. The Times of London called it a “legitimate act of defense” in a lead editorial, while the Telegraph called it “ingenious” and the Wall Street Journal “audacious.” (this echoes the capitalist media response to the Mossad pager detonation attack, which was likewise an act of state terrorism).

This is just the latest provocation backed by NATO and the Biden Admin aimed at creating "facts on the ground in Ukraine" ahead of Trump's presidency.

The purpose is to provoke Russia into carrying out a retaliatory response (such as assassinating a high ranking military figure in NATO) which would then provide another pretext to escalate the war.

The sole foreign policy concern of the lame duck Biden administration before leaving office is to assist its proxy government in Ukraine in escalating the war via provocations to such an extent that the Trump administration, whatever its election rhetoric about "ceasefire negotiations", has no choice but to continue the war.

Well if the War crime” offends you try lodging a complaint. My view is that war crimes almost never are relevant and are determined after the war ends. In this case the perpetrators are like to have died by the end of war. So I don’t see anyone giving a shit. And surely the worker rights part of you should be happy that military and political bosses sending workers to death are themselves getting killed.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Putin fell into the NATO trap hook, line and sinker.

Fundamentally, like most here in this thread, Putin had no understanding of the nature of imperialism.

He believed that if he invaded Ukraine, he could force the imperialists to come to their senses, and do some deal which would ensure that Ukraine did not become a member of NATO, and did not become a platform for further subversion, provocation, and NATO military incursion, into Russia.

He thought that imperialism would allow his regime to peacefully "coexist" with it.

But he did not understand that imperialism will tolerate no barrier to global economic domination in its time of crisis, as we are living through now.

There followed a US/NATO propaganda barrage of which Goebbels himself would have been proud, portraying Putin as the latest reincarnation of Hitler who threatened the entire world, and therefore a NATO/US war threatening the nuclear incineration of mankind was justified to avert this threat.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine was barbaric, murderous, and reactionary. And it was exactly what imperialism wanted him to do.

However, the decision to invade was not a question of Putin's stupidity, but was due to the total bankruptcy of his own regime.

His regime is based on Russian nationalism, which he counterposes to Ukrainian nationalism. He is attempting to ward off imperialism on the basis of the military and economic/social resources of just one country, Russia, a country which has no position of strength in the global economic domination of finance capital.

Putins option was obvious. Engineer a counter coup against zelensky which would sufficiently confuse the issue that nato would not act, and Russia would not be a pariah.

 

[Crankyhawk]

IF Putin was to seriously attack London. Moscow would be flattened with 24 hours and Little Legs knows it, but i dare say Little legs is hiding somewhere well away from Moscow through fear.

Maybe little legs is in Kazan hence the Ukrainian drone?

 

[wannabejack]

Russian attack on cancer treatment center in Kherson 'heinous act of cruelty against civilians,' Zelensky says

The oncology center, which has operated in a limited capacity since the start of the full-scale invasion, housed the only linear accelerator offering radiotherapy treatment in the city.

kyivindependent.com

Throughout its full-scale invasion, Russia has continuously targeted medical facilities particularly in Ukraine's eastern oblasts. Ukraine's Health Ministry reported on July 22 that a total of 1,642 medical facilities have been damaged, and another 214 facilities have been completely destroyed since Russia launched its full-scale invasion in February 2022 — although the updated number is likely significantly higher.

In July, Russia targeted the Okhmatdyt children's hospital in Kyiv - Ukraine's largest children's medical center - killing 2 and injuring at least 32 more, including children.

More recently, a Russian glide bomb attack on Zaporizhzhia on Nov. 8, damaged another cancer hospital.

 

[wannabejack]

Russian long-range strikes cause 42% of Ukrainian civilian deaths in November, UN reports - Euromaidan Press

The UN documents sharp rise in civilian casualties in Ukraine from Russian strategic weapons.

euromaidanpress.com

Nakamitsu revealed that between 24 February 2022 and 30 November 2024, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights recorded over 12,340 civilians killed and more than 27,836 civilians injured in Ukraine.

 

[Mobbs]

{sorry originally posted on backdrop thread by mistake}

Had been waiting expectantly for the Mobbs Bloodthirstiness Tier List but gotta go back to work tomorrow, so ... pushing on ...

As the Muscovian terrorism of missile barrages aimed at energy infrastructure continues, threatening the ability of the Ukrainian civilian population to heat a home or workplace throughout the harsh winters, Ukraine of course eventually concedes.

Concedes that they need to knuckle down and mitigate!

From [Servant of the People TG]

Energy efficiency in Chernihiv region: solar power plants installed in two hospitals

A solar power plant with 58 panels with a capacity of 25.2 kW was installed at the Kozeletska Intensive Care Hospital in Chernihiv Oblast. This will allow the medical facility to continue operating for up to 4.5 hours during blackouts and reduce harmful emissions into the atmosphere.

And in Koryukivka, thanks to 60 solar panels with a total capacity of 26.1 kW, 8 departments of the central district hospital will be able to operate autonomously for up to four hours.

The power plants were installed as part of the Energy Act for Ukraine Foundation's "50 Solar Hospitals" project and with the support of a French non-governmental organization.

"According to experts, the operation of the stations will save more than 5 thousand euros on electricity bills every year, and this will allow the institution to direct these funds to the purchase of necessary equipment. In addition, it will fulfill an important environmental mission," noted Svitlana Leshchenko, a deputy of the Koryukiv City Council from the Servant of the People party.

Note that hospitals and emergency services are a favourite target of Russian aggression - we have discussed many times on these threads direct attacks on hospitals, as well as double-tap offensives striking emergency personnel who arrive on the scene of original missile attacks. Energy infrastructure attacks add to these threats if you're a medical service.

 

[Zidane98]

{sorry originally posted on backdrop thread by mistake}

Had been waiting expectantly for the Mobbs Bloodthirstiness Tier List but gotta go back to work tomorrow, so ... pushing on ...

As the Muscovian terrorism of missile barrages aimed at energy infrastructure continues, threatening the ability of the Ukrainian civilian population to heat a home or workplace throughout the harsh winters, Ukraine of course eventually concedes.

Concedes that they need to knuckle down and mitigate!

From [Servant of the People TG]


View attachment 2191964View attachment 2191965View attachment 2191966

Note that hospitals and emergency services are a favourite target of Russian aggression - we have discussed many times on these threads direct attacks on hospitals, as well as double-tap offensives striking emergency personnel who arrive on the scene of original missile attacks. Energy infrastructure attacks add to these threats if you're a medical service.

Bloodthirsty Mobbs delivers!

 

[IlovethePies]

Well if the War crime” offends you try lodging a complaint. My view is that war crimes almost never are relevant and are determined after the war ends. In this case the perpetrators are like to have died by the end of war. So I don’t see anyone giving a shit. And surely the worker rights part of you should be happy that military and political bosses sending workers to death are themselves getting killed.

I don't care that Kirillov is dead either. I am just pointing out that the SBU is using terrorist methods to assassinate adversaries off the battle field, and the US/NATO governments are happy to go along with that - just as they were with the pager attack by Mossad in Lebanon, or Israel's targeted assassinations of military and political figures off the battle field.

It is a comment on the ongoing normalisation of war crimes on and off the battle field by the socalled "civilised democratic " governments that I am pointing to, not any concern for the death of a figure such as Kirillov.

It shows that these governments are fully embracing the evisceration of international law, and this points to a dangerous turn in the world, because it means that they are preparing to use such methods themselves in the near future.