Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Mobbs]

Heartfelt perspective on things. Thank you for taking the time to write it. It won't change my view of the US, and I still hope Ukraine dosen't go from under the boot of one arseh*le to being under the boot of another.

But Ukraine's own struggle - what they've put up with thus far in history and what they're going through now - you've illustrated that and you've done it well.

Respect, Mobbs. I mean that.

I hope I didn't change your view on the US, I probably agree with it. I absolutely do agree that Trump's USA (probably anybody's USA) would cash in wherever they could, if there was opportunity to do so. And we're seeing it quite overtly right now. I ****ing hope Trump pulls the US out of NATO, because then NATO could potentially be free to operate more consciously with a more even spread of checks and balances, AND align itself clearly against not only the existing storms, but a new one gathering.

But my rant was about Ukrainian lives (and actually ordinary Russian lives too for that matter) which I why I was so verbose. Thanks for hearing me.

 

[Mobbs]

It got a bit intense there for a while. Here's some Ukrainian hardbass to lighten the mood.

 

[Zidane98]

Yes, and it's completely understandable that Eastern Europe wants to be free of Moscow's grasp. What does this new Russia offer them apart from Creeping Conservatism and a severe repression of the LGBT+ community? But switching allegiances to another Great Power - it's just lurching from one abusive rapist to another.

We're a Western market economy here in Australia and we all of us are getting r*ped. Everyone I know, myself included have barely got our heads above water. Yet the upper crust keeps getting more gilded.

Man, f*ck that system. F*ck Russia but f*ck Washington's macroeconomic rape as well. Ukraine, you run, girl. Run from the Great Powers who want your every hole.

Moscow's more brute-forceful at face value but Washington's 'freedom' aint that free either, girl.

Ukraine wants to be a European nation with the associated political and economic benefits it brings. Poland was in the same position as Ukraine post USSR collapse. Ukraine wants to go down the same path. It's up to Ukraine to purse that path and if it doesn't work out that's also on the people of Ukraine.


Ukraine would also like to keep dealing with Russia as it is a neighbor with plenty of associated trade / economic benefits. Ukraine wants this to be a bilateral relationship though. Putin is struggling to accept this because he has dreams of a new Russian empire that Ukranians in the majority absolutely reject.


I do find it notable when one keeps mentioning the US in terms of Ukraine's future.


Ukraine is an independent nation that has chosen its path and nothing is going to change it. Trump's pro Russian views is absolute proof of that. A puppet government or Russian rule is simply impossible in Ukraine now after everything that's happened over the last 30 years.


And the only party to blame for that is Russia and mostly Putin's fascist views.

 

[Jamolad]

It got a bit intense there for a while. Here's some Ukrainian hardbass to lighten the mood.

Not gonna lie...I do like watching the old Soviet Army dance to hardbass...holding-the-ankles move at 2 mins is a bit odd

 

[GhostofJimJess]

This absolutely unbalanced though. Yes we are somewhat at the behest of the US superpower but you and I can literally sit here and talk shit about Trump or the USA as much as we want. You look at Jake Broe who is in USA and calling for other countries to boycott USA and mobilise essentially overthrow the Trump regime, and you know what we can do tomorrow? We can do it all again. You try to go to Russia and do the same thing there as a Russian re the Putin government. You'd be in a SIZO within a couple of days, after first being beaten to a crisp and suffered sexual abuse threats in some Brateevo-esque police station. And if you scarper then they'll arrest your family.

It's utterly incomparable. Examining or pursuing a relationship with the USA is not comparable to rolling up to the extinction plate in front of the Russian gallows. No nation, no people, no power on this planet is innocent of atrocious actions. Ukraine itself, and without ANY influence from without, are guilty of bad conduct (Poles, Roma, etc). But it's a matter of perspective here dude, including also paying attention to the growth over time. The RF have descended further and further into an abyss of evil. Ukraine continually improved their standing against corruption, including a steep improvement since the 2022 invasion. The USA are just a static problem which tends to just poke in and out when there's some carpetbagging opportunity to cash in on.

Saving Ukraine from Russian agression should not be moderated by our misgivings against other parties attached to the conflict through stance and/or support. This is a fight between an innocent party and a guilty one. The USA have not made Ukraine any more, or less, Ukraine. Ukraine as an entity predates not only Russia, as we've often needed to remind everyone, but it predates the USA too. Ukraine is who needs support. Because those guys are under threat. Those guys are the ones fighting for survival. ** the USA, of course, especially Trump's USA but also ** Biden's USA who were less openly pro-exploitation but were in no way innocent of it.

Ukraine has the sovereign power to make its own decisions. If the Ukrainian people turned around tomorrow and said "actually we love Russia now", I'd have to respect that, no matter how I felt.

My interests in preserving Ukraine's sovereignty far outweigh my disgust at the USA's imperialism and opportunism and mafioso standover tactics. At least, the latter will not change my view on the former. And anybody wishing to risk Ukraine's sovereignty for some pariochial bar-room argument rant about some other place, is sacrificing the lives of innocent people RIGHT THIS MINUTE for the sake of a less immediate risk.

This ****ing shits me tbh. It reminds me of the "oh woe is me if we piss Putin off he might go nuclear" argument. Ukrainian civilian men, women and children are dying NOW. Their lives are being ruined NOW. Because we MIGHT POSSIBLY suffer if a bunch of dots HAPPEN to get connected. I will NOT sell lives of innocent people RIGHT NOW to mitigate a potential risk that may or may not happen.

Forgive me if I'm off track and it's not on point with your stance. It's what your post prompted. I'm so sorry you barely have you head above water. There's children in Krivy Rih who haven't got their heads above RUBBLE.

****'s sake I need a panadol.

Magnificent.

You're a Bigfooty treasure Mobbs.

 

[OneGreatClub]

This absolutely unbalanced though. Yes we are somewhat at the behest of the US superpower but you and I can literally sit here and talk shit about Trump or the USA as much as we want. You look at Jake Broe who is in USA and calling for other countries to boycott USA and mobilise essentially overthrow the Trump regime, and you know what we can do tomorrow? We can do it all again. You try to go to Russia and do the same thing there as a Russian re the Putin government. You'd be in a SIZO within a couple of days, after first being beaten to a crisp and suffered sexual abuse threats in some Brateevo-esque police station. And if you scarper then they'll arrest your family.

It's utterly incomparable. Examining or pursuing a relationship with the USA is not comparable to rolling up to the extinction plate in front of the Russian gallows. No nation, no people, no power on this planet is innocent of atrocious actions. Ukraine itself, and without ANY influence from without, are guilty of bad conduct (Poles, Roma, etc). But it's a matter of perspective here dude, including also paying attention to the growth over time. The RF have descended further and further into an abyss of evil. Ukraine continually improved their standing against corruption, including a steep improvement since the 2022 invasion. The USA are just a static problem which tends to just poke in and out when there's some carpetbagging opportunity to cash in on.

Saving Ukraine from Russian agression should not be moderated by our misgivings against other parties attached to the conflict through stance and/or support. This is a fight between an innocent party and a guilty one. The USA have not made Ukraine any more, or less, Ukraine. Ukraine as an entity predates not only Russia, as we've often needed to remind everyone, but it predates the USA too. Ukraine is who needs support. Because those guys are under threat. Those guys are the ones fighting for survival. ** the USA, of course, especially Trump's USA but also ** Biden's USA who were less openly pro-exploitation but were in no way innocent of it.

Ukraine has the sovereign power to make its own decisions. If the Ukrainian people turned around tomorrow and said "actually we love Russia now", I'd have to respect that, no matter how I felt.

My interests in preserving Ukraine's sovereignty far outweigh my disgust at the USA's imperialism and opportunism and mafioso standover tactics. At least, the latter will not change my view on the former. And anybody wishing to risk Ukraine's sovereignty for some pariochial bar-room argument rant about some other place, is sacrificing the lives of innocent people RIGHT THIS MINUTE for the sake of a less immediate risk.

This ****ing shits me tbh. It reminds me of the "oh woe is me if we piss Putin off he might go nuclear" argument. Ukrainian civilian men, women and children are dying NOW. Their lives are being ruined NOW. Because we MIGHT POSSIBLY suffer if a bunch of dots HAPPEN to get connected. I will NOT sell lives of innocent people RIGHT NOW to mitigate a potential risk that may or may not happen.

Forgive me if I'm off track and it's not on point with your stance. It's what your post prompted. I'm so sorry you barely have you head above water. There's children in Krivy Rih who haven't got their heads above RUBBLE.

****'s sake I need a panadol.

Magnificent post, man

 

[Jello_B]

This absolutely unbalanced though. Yes we are somewhat at the behest of the US superpower but you and I can literally sit here and talk shit about Trump or the USA as much as we want. You look at Jake Broe who is in USA and calling for other countries to boycott USA and mobilise essentially overthrow the Trump regime, and you know what we can do tomorrow? We can do it all again. You try to go to Russia and do the same thing there as a Russian re the Putin government. You'd be in a SIZO within a couple of days, after first being beaten to a crisp and suffered sexual abuse threats in some Brateevo-esque police station. And if you scarper then they'll arrest your family.

It's utterly incomparable. Examining or pursuing a relationship with the USA is not comparable to rolling up to the extinction plate in front of the Russian gallows. No nation, no people, no power on this planet is innocent of atrocious actions. Ukraine itself, and without ANY influence from without, are guilty of bad conduct (Poles, Roma, etc). But it's a matter of perspective here dude, including also paying attention to the growth over time. The RF have descended further and further into an abyss of evil. Ukraine continually improved their standing against corruption, including a steep improvement since the 2022 invasion. The USA are just a static problem which tends to just poke in and out when there's some carpetbagging opportunity to cash in on.

Saving Ukraine from Russian agression should not be moderated by our misgivings against other parties attached to the conflict through stance and/or support. This is a fight between an innocent party and a guilty one. The USA have not made Ukraine any more, or less, Ukraine. Ukraine as an entity predates not only Russia, as we've often needed to remind everyone, but it predates the USA too. Ukraine is who needs support. Because those guys are under threat. Those guys are the ones fighting for survival. ** the USA, of course, especially Trump's USA but also ** Biden's USA who were less openly pro-exploitation but were in no way innocent of it.

Ukraine has the sovereign power to make its own decisions. If the Ukrainian people turned around tomorrow and said "actually we love Russia now", I'd have to respect that, no matter how I felt.

My interests in preserving Ukraine's sovereignty far outweigh my disgust at the USA's imperialism and opportunism and mafioso standover tactics. At least, the latter will not change my view on the former. And anybody wishing to risk Ukraine's sovereignty for some pariochial bar-room argument rant about some other place, is sacrificing the lives of innocent people RIGHT THIS MINUTE for the sake of a less immediate risk.

This ****ing shits me tbh. It reminds me of the "oh woe is me if we piss Putin off he might go nuclear" argument. Ukrainian civilian men, women and children are dying NOW. Their lives are being ruined NOW. Because we MIGHT POSSIBLY suffer if a bunch of dots HAPPEN to get connected. I will NOT sell lives of innocent people RIGHT NOW to mitigate a potential risk that may or may not happen.

Forgive me if I'm off track and it's not on point with your stance. It's what your post prompted. I'm so sorry you barely have you head above water. There's children in Krivy Rih who haven't got their heads above RUBBLE.

****'s sake I need a panadol.

Such a great post! Hope you’re recovering from your short hospital stay ok. Have a glass of red with the panadol and you’ll feel better

 

[Mobbs]

Such a great post! Hope you’re recovering from your short hospital stay ok. Have a glass of red with the panadol and you’ll feel better

I'm fine now. But home today so had time to go on a rant!

 

[Visions]

But can he fix the Ticketek site that always seems to be down when tickets go on sale for AFL members each month?

 

[Visions]

Maybe if ****wit Orban moved away from Russian oil, this wouldn't be a problem.

What is Hungary going to do? Declare war on Ukraine? lol

 

[Zidane98]

I'm fine now. But home today so had time to go on a rant!

Glad to hear you are fine and back home.

And just like 2024 Mobbs delivers is going to be the catchphrase of 2025.


Eternally grateful for your insights into Ukraine and the so called Russian Federation for which you clearly have excellent fist hand knowledge of.


About the only direct link to the conflict I have is a former work colleague who hails from Kharkiv and is quite active in the Ukranian community here. It is a certainty that Ukranians will not accept a puppet Russian government or Russian occupation of any Ukranian territory. The bravery of Ukranian people is inspiring considering how much they have suffered at the hands of various Russian empires.

 

[Zidane98]

Also when will Trump announce he is seeking repayment from Russia for the 1942-45 USSR lend lease military program? USSR needed this because they were double crossed by their Nazi friends. Cost nearly $150 billion in today's money and Russia only ever coughed up 10 percent of it.

A simple calculation of $135 billion dollars borrowed at a conservative interest rate of 5% over 70 years assuming a 2% inflation rates / no interim payments made sees a value owed by Russia as USSR successor state of $4.1 trillion USD to the USA today.

I'm sure Donnie can arrange an invoice to be posted by registered mail to Vlad with 2 options - payment in full (cash, crypto or rare earth metals accepted as payment ) or total withdrawal from Ukraine which would see the debt written off.

 

[Zidane98]

Maybe if ****wit Orban moved away from Russian oil, this wouldn't be a problem.

What is Hungary going to do? Declare war on Ukraine? lol

This bloke wants it both ways. Wants to be a dictator but also wants to be part of Europe and the associated economic / political benefits.


About time the EU put dictators like him on notice that they need to change things or they will not be welcome.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Ukraine wants to be a European nation with the associated political and economic benefits it brings. Poland was in the same position as Ukraine post USSR collapse. Ukraine wants to go down the same path. It's up to Ukraine to purse that path and if it doesn't work out that's also on the people of Ukraine.


Ukraine would also like to keep dealing with Russia as it is a neighbor with plenty of associated trade / economic benefits. Ukraine wants this to be a bilateral relationship though. Putin is struggling to accept this because he has dreams of a new Russian empire that Ukranians in the majority absolutely reject.


I do find it notable when one keeps mentioning the US in terms of Ukraine's future.


Ukraine is an independent nation that has chosen its path and nothing is going to change it. Trump's pro Russian views is absolute proof of that. A puppet government or Russian rule is simply impossible in Ukraine now after everything that's happened over the last 30 years.


And the only party to blame for that is Russia and mostly Putin's fascist views.

I think, after reading your and especially Mobbs' more personal take on Ukraine's struggle, that my criticism of US meddling in and around Ukraine should be seen as a separate thing and NOT a slander against Ukraine's own struggle against an expansionist neighbour in Moscow.

I don't trust the United States, full stop. I won't let that spread into my feeling on Ukraine, which aren't at all negative.

 

[Zidane98]

I think, after reading your and especially Mobbs' more personal take on Ukraine's struggle, that my criticism of US meddling in and around Ukraine should be seen as a separate thing and NOT a slander against Ukraine's own struggle against an expansionist neighbour in Moscow.

I don't trust the United States, full stop. I won't let that spread into my feeling on Ukraine, which aren't at all negative.

We're talking about Ukraine here though. Not the United States.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

We're talking about Ukraine here though. Not the United States.

Yeah fair enough. Thread title says it all I guess!

 

[OneGreatClub]

Who would want to be military personnel in the US when Waltz and Hesgeth are so loose with confidential war details that could put them at risk??

 

[OneGreatClub]

Trump’s false equivalency between Russia and Ukraine is sickening

 

[Aussie in exile]

This shows that putin doesn't want a ceasefire or peace.

Putin to conscript 160,000 more Russians for war with Ukraine

Ukraine warned the Kremlin is preparing for a massive new military offensive.

www.politico.eu

 

[DaTBird187]

Hopefully he has some pull but I doubt it

Yeah, about as much influence as he has over Trump.

Pastor Burns: "Hey Donald, can you stop being a gigantic arseh*le?"

Trump: "No"

 

[Cooldude]

Hopefully he has some pull but I doubt it

"Spiritual advisor" lol, like Scomo's empathy coach

 

[Visions]

This bloke wants it both ways. Wants to be a dictator but also wants to be part of Europe and the associated economic / political benefits.


About time the EU put dictators like him on notice that they need to change things or they will not be welcome.

Well hopefully the world gets lucky and Germany gets its way.

 

[OneGreatClub]

 

[OneGreatClub]

Nothing would surprise any more

 

[Aussie in exile]

Nothing would surprise any more

The world hasn't recovered from covid financially and now this