Current WAR CRIMES Israel - * ICC issues warrants for Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu & Yoav Gallant & for Hamas's Mohammed Deif

[Kurve]

The ICC has also issued a warrant for Hamas leader Mohammed Deif, who Israel says they have killed.

According to the ICC, the chamber “found reasonable grounds to believe” that Deif was “responsible for the crimes against humanity of murder; extermination; torture; and rape and other form of sexual violence; as well as the war crimes of murder, cruel treatment, torture; taking hostages; outrages upon personal dignity; and rape and other form of sexual violence”.

It also said there were reasonable grounds to believe the crimes against humanity were “part of a widespread and systematic attack directed by Hamas and other armed groups against the civilian population of Israel”.

For Netanyahu and Gallant, who was replaced as defence minister earlier this month, the chamber “found reasonable grounds to believe” that they “each bear criminal responsibility for the following crimes as co-perpetrators for committing the acts jointly with others: the war crime of starvation as a method of warfare; and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts”.

It also found reasonable grounds to believe that “each bear criminal responsibility as civilian superiors for the war crime of intentionally directing an attack against the civilian population”.




INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT

INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT - Elements of Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes

 

[jason_recliner]

Many years in the future, it'll likely be called a genocide, along with the other genocides.

People will wonder why no one spoke out.

A lot of people are speaking out all over the world. Just not the MSM and politicians in this country and a handful of others.

 

[faible]

A lot of people are speaking out all over the world. Just not the MSM and politicians in this country and a handful of others.

(that's the joke)

 

[Jazny]

I'll give you a hint - it's not going to look good for your team.

That's probably true for Gaza. It's incredibly one sided and a tonne of destruction. There will be for sure war crimes committed by insane psychopaths like in every major war on top of massive human suffering which is never easy to justify. Especially now that everyone has phones. I am surprised how America gets a pass for nuking civilians twice, but if mobiles existed back then it might be different.

If Israel wanted to win the optics war they probably had to not go into Gaza in response to October 7th. I think the defeat of Hezbollah will be viewed favourably, but Gaza is a mess. Hamas contribute to this deliberately by using human shield strategies and by bending in with civilians. They fight like cowards. But it doesn't and won't absolve Israelis unjustly killing or mistreating civilians either.

The sooner Israel can get out the better for their international image, it's just sad if Hamas stays in power this will probably happen all over again in a decade or two. Something must change.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

That's probably true for Gaza. It's incredibly one sided and a tonne of destruction. There will be for sure war crimes committed by insane psychopaths like in every major war on top of massive human suffering which is never easy to justify. Especially now that everyone has phones. I am surprised how America gets a pass for nuking civilians twice, but if mobiles existed back then it might be different.

If Israel wanted to win the optics war they probably had to not go into Gaza in response to October 7th. I think the defeat of Hezbollah will be viewed favourably, but Gaza is a mess.

I don’t think mobile phones would have worked very well after being nuked.

 

[Jazny]

I don’t think mobile phones would have worked very well after being nuked.

Yes every single person in the wider area died and we have no images of the aftermath at all or survivor testimony.

 

[treeebeard]

That's probably true for Gaza. It's incredibly one sided and a tonne of destruction. There will be for sure war crimes committed by insane psychopaths like in every major war on top of massive human suffering which is never easy to justify. Especially now that everyone has phones. I am surprised how America gets a pass for nuking civilians twice, but if mobiles existed back then it might be different.

If Israel wanted to win the optics war they probably had to not go into Gaza in response to October 7th. I think the defeat of Hezbollah will be viewed favourably, but Gaza is a mess. Hamas contribute to this deliberately by using human shield strategies and by bending in with civilians. They fight like cowards. But it doesn't and won't absolve Israelis unjustly killing or mistreating civilians either.

The sooner Israel can get out the better for their international image, it's just sad if Hamas stays in power this will probably happen all over again in a decade or two. Something must change.

Israel's international image will be even worse once they get out and the full destruction is known. But they won't care, zionism is entrenched in western govenrments. Gazans will be on their knees for decades. Israel will have created a 1km (minimum) dead zone between their wall and anything thats left in Gaza. Settlements in the west bank will carry on. Palestinians lose more land and the noose tightens around them.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

I don't doubt they blame every single violent death as being killed by Israel even if Hamas killed them. It would be actually pretty hard for them to know in most cases, so they would likely just count it in the violent deaths they attribute to Israel.

There is evidence that they are counting at least some natural deaths in the deaths in the tally though which would be very dodgy. So would the aging down by a year thing if that is widespread. But I want further analysis to be done before I believe his claim that up to 6000 natural deaths are being included in the death toll.

The ABC did their own checking of the data a couple of months ago and did not find that many misgendered people in the count. Not enough to make any significant difference to the overall ratio of men to women killed. I think the numbers are more accurate now than at the start of the war. There were some pretty wild claims of the proportion of women and children killed coming from the start of the war that don't seem to be true now.

I kind of doubt that the Hamas numbers we have now are way off, but numbers can be fudged a little and it will take quite awhile for us to know the truth. I just think it needs further fact checking.

We do know that Hamas are questionable in that they don't bother distinguishing military and civilian casualties so even that should make us suspect. But Hamas also are known to fight as civilians with no uniform and disguise themselves as civilians so even if they did distinguish combatants it would probably be an under count because in Gaza it's not always easy to tell who was participating in hostilities.

How many of the deaths are Hamas militants? At least half? As they are usually surrounded by their families, that might account for a lot of the civilians.

 

[faible]

How many of the deaths are Hamas militants? At least half? As they are usually surrounded by their families, that might account for a lot of the civilians.

Ah another hot take from you.

What about the mass starvation being enacted against the entire population of Gaza? Thoughts, feelings, concerns?

 

[Jazny]

How many of the deaths are Hamas militants? At least half?

It's hard to know for sure, but I doubt the Israeli estimates are miles off being correct and they aren't quite half. It's widely accepted that almost if not all Hamas battalions are decimated and there were about ~30,000 members before the war. Then some portion of the non-militants will be people actively participating in combat. People spying, relaying messages, storing or moving weapons, that kind of thing even if they are not officially in Hamas or PIJ.

I doubt when the fighting ends, that 30,000 Hamas soldiers are going to come out of hiding as a full strength fighting force. Not even close. Their last stronghold is Jabalia and they are losing control of a lot of Gaza even in terms of administration. I think probably somewhere close to half or more of Hamas militants have been killed and significant number captured. American officials were saying about half were wiped out 6 months ago. Lots of them seem to be being killed in Jabalia over the last couple of months. I think they are almost done as being able to fight at all, that's why we might see a ceasefire and an end to the full scale war in Gaza soon.

As they are usually surrounded by their families, that might account for a lot of the civilians.

It's sad, but civilian casualties happen in war and the way Hamas fights make it far more likely to happen than in a conventional war. To be fair, the tactics of Israel makes it likely that a lot of civilians will be being killed also, even though I don't think there is much unusual between how they would fight such a war and how America would in the same circumstances. Add on top of that that a lot of the IDF soldiers in the war are reservists who are not particularly well trained or experienced so not a great recipe for the civilians who live in the war zone.

I dont think Hamas militants being surrounded by family explains it all. For low level military, if a Hamas militant is sitting in a house with his family, it's probably not going to be proportionate to bomb his whole house.

 

[Zidane98]

Ominous from Erdogan. Wonder if Turkey would ever look to turn Palestine into a client state.

 

[jason_recliner]

It's hard to know for sure, but I doubt the Israeli estimates are miles off being correct and they aren't quite half. It's widely accepted that almost if not all Hamas battalions are decimated and there were about ~30,000 members before the war. Then some portion of the non-militants will be people actively participating in combat. People spying, relaying messages, storing or moving weapons, that kind of thing even if they are not officially in Hamas or PIJ.

I doubt when the fighting ends, that 30,000 Hamas soldiers are going to come out of hiding as a full strength fighting force. Not even close. Their last stronghold is Jabalia and they are losing control of a lot of Gaza even in terms of administration. I think probably somewhere close to half or more of Hamas militants have been killed and significant number captured. American officials were saying about half were wiped out 6 months ago. Lots of them seem to be being killed in Jabalia over the last couple of months. I think they are almost done as being able to fight at all, that's why we might see a ceasefire and an end to the full scale war in Gaza soon.

It's sad, but civilian casualties happen in war and the way Hamas fights make it far more likely to happen than in a conventional war. To be fair, the tactics of Israel makes it likely that a lot of civilians will be being killed also, even though I don't think there is much unusual between how they would fight such a war and how America would in the same circumstances. Add on top of that that a lot of the IDF soldiers in the war are reservists who are not particularly well trained or experienced so not a great recipe for the civilians who live in the war zone.

I dont think Hamas militants being surrounded by family explains it all. For low level military, if a Hamas militant is sitting in a house with his family, it's probably not going to be proportionate to bomb his whole house.

That can't be right. Israel says it's fighting a war. If "almost if not all Hamas battalions are decimated", with whom are they at war?

 

[jason_recliner]

Ah another hot take from you.

What about the mass starvation being enacted against the entire population of Gaza? Thoughts, feelings, concerns?

I'll field this one.

Unavoidable, they had it coming to them, nada.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

That's probably true for Gaza. It's incredibly one sided and a tonne of destruction. There will be for sure war crimes committed by insane psychopaths like in every major war on top of massive human suffering which is never easy to justify.

This clearly goes beyond the insane psychopaths/bad apples/rogue soldier excuses. This is clearly a top down direction to exterminate Palestinians en masse. Every source is saying they have been directed by ranking officers to carry out these massacres.

It's just not possible to claim this is not by design. They knew this hence the barring of any independent journalists in Gaza, and the systematic killing of Palestinian journalists.

I can't abide by anyone still trying to claim this is some natural byproduct of war any longer.

If Israel wanted to win the optics war they probably had to not go into Gaza in response to October 7th. I think the defeat of Hezbollah will be viewed favourably, but Gaza is a mess. Hamas contribute to this deliberately by using human shield strategies and by bending in with civilians. They fight like cowards. But it doesn't and won't absolve Israelis unjustly killing or mistreating civilians either.

The sooner Israel can get out the better for their international image, it's just sad if Hamas stays in power this will probably happen all over again in a decade or two. Something must change.

I agree there were no easy options, but what they have wrought is a stain on Israel for eternity.

 

[Jazny]

All they've done is taken the typical natural death number for the time period in Gaza and assumed every one of those and more is included in the MoH casualty figure. With no evidence at all that I can find. Intellectually dishonest, just like much of the rest.

That's true which is why I havent accepted it as fact that 6,000 natural deaths are being attributed to Israel, but he has shown cases where what strongly appears to be natural deaths are showing up in the Hamas figures as attributable to Israel. How widespread this is, I do not know, it's impossible for me or probably anyone else to fact check.

Your aging down explanation makes sense I think but I can't honestly be bothered fact checking it. It's probably possible with a calculator or something but I'm not doing it, I will take it as that part of the report being solved.

The numbers seem to have improved from the start of the war which were pretty wildly skewed towards women and children fatalities compared to they are now.

 

[Jazny]

That can't be right. Israel says it's fighting a war. If "almost if not all Hamas battalions are decimated", with whom are they at war?

The remainder of Hamas? Most of the fighting now is in Jabalia.

 

[jason_recliner]

This clearly goes beyond the insane psychopaths/bad apples/rogue soldier excuses. This is clearly a top down direction to exterminate Palestinians en masse. Every source is saying they have been directed by ranking officers to carry out these massacres.

It's just not possible to claim this is not by design. They knew this hence the barring of any independent journalists in Gaza, and the systematic killing of Palestinian journalists.

I can't abide by anyone still trying to claim this is some natural byproduct of war any longer.

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I agree there were no easy options, but what they have wrought is a stain on Israel for eternity.

You say there are no easy options but they've shown they can target people with near pinpoint accuracy, even in other States. And their special forces are apparently amongst the most capable in the world. So they have options to avoid civilian deaths, they are just expensive options.

 

[jason_recliner]

That's true which is why I havent accepted it as fact that 6,000 natural deaths are being attributed to Israel, but he has shown cases where what strongly appears to be natural deaths are showing up in the Hamas figures as attributable to Israel. How widespread this is, I do not know, it's impossible for me or probably anyone else to fact check.

Your aging down explanation makes sense I think but I can't honestly be bothered fact checking it. It's probably possible with a calculator or something but I'm not doing it, I will take it as that part of the report being solved.

The numbers seem to have improved from the start of the war which were pretty wildly skewed towards women and children fatalities compared to they are now.

Yes, you'd expect that after you kill 1-2% of the women and children in the most densely populated areas, the rate of killing women and children would decrease.

 

[IlovethePies]

Bezos, who is a CIA contractor and is on the Pentagon's Defense Advisory Board, owns the WP. i.e. it's a facist propaganda rag. But at least they have a few 'big name' writers, well-regarded and respected by idiots, who can put their name on propaganda like this to make it more credible (to idiots, at least). Wait, this was written by the entire 'Editorial Board'? It's possibly nothing more than a Pentagon 'Press Release'.

Actually this is not exactly true.
The Washington Post has traditionally been one of the "newspapers of record" in the US, along with the NY Times. It is not just a "fascist propaganda rag" - it is one of the flagships of US liberalism, in the same vein as the NY Times.

The decision of Bezos not to endorse Harris outraged its readership.

This is why this editorial piece is just so astonishing. It reveals the complete moral collapse of all US mass media, and its integration into the state itself as a pure vehicle of propaganda for the interests of US imperialism.

 

[jason_recliner]

Actually this is not exactly true.
The Washington Post has traditionally been one of the "newspapers of record" in the US, along with the NY Times. It is not just a "fascist propaganda rag" - it is one of the flagships of US liberalism, in the same vein as the NY Times.

The decision of Bezos not to endorse Harris outraged its readership.

This is why this editorial piece is just so astonishing. It reveals the complete moral collapse of all US mass media, and its integration into the state itself as a pure vehicle of propaganda for the interests of US imperialism.

This may have once been true but since Bezos took over it's propaganda. Not every single article, obviously, just when it counts / is needed. I'm not claiming that there's not a lot of idiots reading it and believing it is somehow a bastion of truth.

 

[Kurve]

Actually this is not exactly true.
The Washington Post has traditionally been one of the "newspapers of record" in the US, along with the NY Times. It is not just a "fascist propaganda rag" - it is one of the flagships of US liberalism, in the same vein as the NY Times.

The decision of Bezos not to endorse Harris outraged its readership.

This is why this editorial piece is just so astonishing. It reveals the complete moral collapse of all US mass media, and its integration into the state itself as a pure vehicle of propaganda for the interests of US imperialism.

Bezos gave no endorsements. I actually wish more of them would do it.

They can do without the celebrities endorsements as well. I'd hate to see political campaigning like the last US election in Australia.

 

[Jazny]

This clearly goes beyond the insane psychopaths/bad apples/rogue soldier excuses. This is clearly a top down direction to exterminate Palestinians en masse. Every source is saying they have been directed by ranking officers to carry out these massacres.

It's just not possible to claim this is not by design. They knew this hence the barring of any independent journalists in Gaza, and the systematic killing of Palestinian journalists.

I can't abide by anyone still trying to claim this is some natural byproduct of war any longer.

View attachment 2190894

I have heard testimony from soldiers on the ground like Haim Har-Zahav who wrote in Haaretz last week he was claiming there is no explicit order from the top to shoot civilians but the order to kill is dependent on more local commanders interpretation of who is a threat. He claimed the killing of people entering the corridor is more a grey area and who lives and dies is dependent on the commander. He gave one account of a commander ordering soldiers to shoot at people waving a white flag, the soldiers refused the order in this case. He claimed at the end of the article that instances like this are few. He also talks about firing warning shots at people who they deem might not be posing a threat, but the problem was that it was really up to the local commander who lived and died.

The latest Haaretz article makes it seem like they are shooting to kill everyone who enters the corridor, I am not sure if this is an example of quote farming or if its legitimately whats happening, I think I need to see more testimony to really believe the worst case account. If it's true then that Vach guy needs to be removed and tried on war crimes charges if he is ordering them to shoot anyone that enters the corridor without firing warning shots if they aren't suspected of participating in hostilities.

Yes, you'd expect that after you kill 1-2% of the women and children in the most densely populated areas, the rate of killing women and children would decrease.

No, the numbers reported at the start of the war were revised in April from memory.

 

[Kurve]

Amazing revelation of the hypocricy of Israel's main backer, the US government, reflected in the msm corporate media (which has become a propaganda arm of the US government and the Pentagon).

Apparently, the ICC is needed to resolve war crimes in Russia, Sudan, Myanmar.

Targeting Israel makes that harder.

- Washington Post

It's a shocker of a headline yet finishes with a bit more balance. It's stated Israel needs to be held accountable for its military conduct in Gaza but the argument is that they have the mechanisms to handle it themselves.


Some Israeli reserve soldiers have already been arrested over accusations of abuse against Palestinian detainees. More investigations will follow. The ICC is supposed to become involved when countries have no means or mechanisms to investigate themselves. That is not the case in Israel.

The United States has long had an ambivalent relationship with the ICC. It refuses to be a party to the court for fear of politically motivated prosecutions against U.S. service members overseas. But at times it has encouraged the ICC and lent support, as in the case of war crimes against Russian President Vladimir Putin for his invasion of Ukraine.
President-elect Donald Trump, in his first term, took a hostile stance toward the ICC. Mr. Trump imposed travel sanctions against ICC prosecutors and staff, which President Joe Biden lifted.

The ill-considered arrest warrants against Israel only give Mr. Trump a new reason to halt American cooperation with the court, at a time when it’s needed for Russia, Sudan, Myanmar and conflicts elsewhere that atrocities are being committed with impunity and the victims have no other recourse.

From your link.

 

[jason_recliner]

I have heard testimony from soldiers on the ground like Haim Har-Zahav who wrote in Haaretz last week he was claiming there is no explicit order from the top to shoot civilians but the order to kill is dependent on more local commanders interpretation of who is a threat. He claimed the killing of people entering the corridor is more a grey area and who lives and dies is dependent on the commander. He gave one account of a commander ordering soldiers to shoot at people waving a white flag, the soldiers refused the order in this case. He claimed at the end of the article that instances like this are few. He also talks about firing warning shots at people who they deem might not be posing a threat, but the problem was that it was really up to the local commander who lived and died.

The latest Haaretz article makes it seem like they are shooting to kill everyone who enters the corridor, I am not sure if this is an example of quote farming or if its legitimately whats happening, I think I need to see more testimony to really believe the worst case account. If it's true then that Vach guy needs to be removed and tried on war crimes charges if he is ordering them to shoot anyone that enters the corridor without firing warning shots if they aren't suspected of participating in hostilities.

No, the numbers reported at the start of the war were revised in April from memory.

Hard to try Vach on war crimes when Israel doesn't recognise the ICC. Best we can do as a State and Global Citizens is BDS.

 

[IlovethePies]

It's a shocker of a headline yet finishes with a bit more balance. It's Israel needs to be held accountable for its military conduct in Gaza but the argument is that they have the mechanisms to handle it themselves.


Some Israeli reserve soldiers have already been arrested over accusations of abuse against Palestinian detainees. More investigations will follow. The ICC is supposed to become involved when countries have no means or mechanisms to investigate themselves. That is not the case in Israel.

The United States has long had an ambivalent relationship with the ICC. It refuses to be a party to the court for fear of politically motivated prosecutions against U.S. service members overseas. But at times it has encouraged the ICC and lent support, as in the case of war crimes against Russian President Vladimir Putin for his invasion of Ukraine.
President-elect Donald Trump, in his first term, took a hostile stance toward the ICC. Mr. Trump imposed travel sanctions against ICC prosecutors and staff, which President Joe Biden lifted.

The ill-considered arrest warrants against Israel only give Mr. Trump a new reason to halt American cooperation with the court, at a time when it’s needed for Russia, Sudan, Myanmar and conflicts elsewhere that atrocities are being committed with impunity and the victims have no other recourse.

From your link.

So what stops Russia claiming that it has "mechanisms to handle it " by themselves? Or Myanmar? Or Sudan?

Of course the US has an ambivalent history with the ICC. It supports it when it suits its interests, and ignores/criticises it when it doesn"t.

This is just one more example of imperialist hypocricy, but cast in a particularly glaring light.

 

[Kurve]

So what stops Russia claiming that it has "mechanisms to handle it " by themselves? Or Myanmar? Or Sudan?

Of course the US has an ambivalent history with the ICC. It supports it when it suits its interests, and ignores/criticises it when it doesn"t.

This is just one more example of imperialist hypocricy, but cast in a particularly glaring light.

Russia probably is claiming it has the mechanisms to hold their own war criminals to account.

Anyhow, who's going to arrest Vladimir Putin?