Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion Part 2

[sr36]

I know it was said that it was a disadvantage for them to stay in Victoria as much because they were never able to get used to travelling for finals. Didn't stop you from beating us in a Prelim at Football Park.

Adelaide Oval is a happy hunting ground for us. Pies have two ridiculous streaks going. Crisps games and we're on the most consecutive wins at the Adelaide Oval - including Port and Crows.

 

[peetoo]

Just a tidbit

Port win more games at marvel than AO

 

[doppleganger]

I’m not arguing that playing a vfl team in a grand final means you can’t win. It’s about marginal advantages.

The analogy would be the British cycling team who focused on 1% advantages and stacked them up and the impact small advantages can have.

The point being that during H&A the marginal advantages aren't going to Melbourne teams who are selling home games.

 

[blue harvest]

The Richmond vs Crows GF was basically a Richmond home ground. Speaking to people who were there, they said 70% of the crowd were Richmond supporters, and the ground was done up for Richmond.
It in no way felt like a neutral stadium, and was definitely a pro Richmond ground.

I was there, it wasn't neutral but no way was it 70% Richmond. Crows had a big presence, enough to make a difference, but the big difference was the Tiger supporters were much louder, they went crazy from the moment the teams came out.

 

[doppleganger]

It's more nuanced than that. Not all Victorian teams get the same preferential treatment by the AFL.

Good to know you acknowledge the concept of VICBias is ridiculous.

Lower places teams like North or the Bulldogs do play interstate more than Collingwood do for instance.

North play the same number of games outside of Melbourne as Adelaide play outside of Adelaide - 10.

Clearly VICBias again at play.

Under the guise of maximising crowds, the AFL has given a big leg up to the big Victorian clubs by allowing them to play more at home than others.

Essendon get 8 games at the G
Hawthorn get 10 games at the G
Carlton get 11 games at the G
Melbourne get 12 games at the G
Richmond get 13 games at the G

Adelaide get 13 games at AO

Clearly VICBias again at play.

To show how much of an advantage it is, with gather round in SA, Victorians have complained that it gives an advantage to the SA clubs who get to play in SA for another games, when the reality is that one of the two SA clubs will play one extra game at home a year. So just one extra home game for one of the clubs is considered an advantage.

Yes both Adelaide and Port get 13 games at AO, 11 of them against travelling teams who aren't familiar with AO where they enjoy a home ground advantage.

Of Richmond's 13 MCG games, only 4 of them against travelling teams who aren't familiar with MCG where they enjoy a home ground advantage.

Of Hawthorn's 10 MCG games, only 1 is against travelling teams who aren't familiar with MCG where they enjoy a home ground advantage.

Clearly VICBias again at play.

The fact that they don't have to travel gives their sponsors better coverage, the players have to travel less, and it has been said by Victorian commentators that this is actually used by the big clubs as a sales pitch to get players to join their team.

Which Victorian commentators have claimed that is which clubs sales pitch?

 

[blue harvest]

Should just do away with the MCC stand for the grand final. People who don't care for either teams just watching because they can whilst they are taking away opportunities from people who just wanna watch their team play in the GF. The members can cry all they want about their 40 year waitlist but this is the right thing to do.

The MCC borrowed hundreds of millions of dollars to rebuild the Northern half of the ground on the understanding they have their own reserve. You can't just renege on that deal. They are why the ground exists as it does today.

 

[doppleganger]

There was black and yellow everywhere.
Here is a photo of the 2019 GF.
Does it seem like a neutral venue?View attachment 2262712

GWS don't have many supporters.

Play the game in Perth and it would be the same, Richmond fans would completely out number the Giants wherever they played.

Below is 2018 GF pic, plenty of Eagles there despite Collingwood clearly having majority.

 

[blue harvest]

It's more nuanced than that. Not all Victorian teams get the same preferential treatment by the AFL. Lower places teams like North or the Bulldogs do play interstate more than Collingwood do for instance.

2025 Interstate games.
Pies 6.
Bulldogs 6.
North 6. (excluding the home games they sold)

 

[doppleganger]

The AFL will say its about maximising the crowd, but the reality is it went from Geelong having earnt a home ground advantage to giving that home ground advantage to Collingwood.

There is no such thing as earning home ground advantage for a final.

Finals are league controlled games, nothing to do with clubs.

Finals are played at whatever venue the league thinks it will make the most money from, that has always been the case.

 

[doppleganger]

I remember when Collingwood was given games to play at Docklands, and they were poorly attended, and the Pies blamed the AFL because their supporters didn't like to go to Marvel, and much preferred to watch games at the MCG.

No shit. Fans prefer to watch games at their home ground.

Marvel isn't our home ground.

 

[blue harvest]

There is no such thing as earning home ground advantage for a final.

Finals are league controlled games, nothing to do with clubs.

Finals are played at whatever venue the league thinks it will make the most money from, that has always been the case.

Indeed, no such thing as home finals and never has been . The AFL selects the most suitable ground in the state of the higher team, for WA and SA teams that just happens to be their home ground and they have mistakenly interpreted this as earning a home final.

 

[BigHuddo]

The MCC borrowed hundreds of millions of dollars to rebuild the Northern half of the ground on the understanding they have their own reserve. You can't just renege on that deal. They are why the ground exists as it does today.

Im not saying take the whole reserve away. Just on grand final day, so fans can watch their team

 

[Mr MysteryGuest]

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Nah Luke wouldn’t know, you got to ask the players that actually know like Pendles , Cripps, Dusty etc . They are the ones that know.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Going around in circles again.

• MCG an advantage for tenant clubs on GF day, tick
• Marvel tenants get a somewhat advantage over non vic clubs on GF day (even if some non vic teams play more MCG games than Marvel tenants), tick
• Non vic clubs get 11 HGA games, tick
• The league is revenue driven, even though it's 'not for profit', tick
• The small vic clubs get the rough end of the stick, tick
• The non vic clubs get a less rough end of the stick, tick
• Northern clubs get an academy advantage over the rest of the competition, tick
• WA clubs could get academy advantage, tick

- The market is driven towards the vic market, coz it's the biggest market, has the most participants (players, coaches and staffers) and the most media, tick
The bolded explains the bias, it's not a conspiracy, as is conceded by most non vic fans itt.

The vic population (fans) outnumbers all other footy states and territories combined by over a million people, so if non vic fans wanna stop the bias because of market direction or even it up, have more population (fans) to validate it.

Stop your crying, or don't couldn't GAF, accept the club competition for what it is, or go follow the epl or nfl, which btw are not as equal as the v/afl. This is the choice for non vic fans, you can follow your clubs in your state leagues if you wish, but you don't, again, couldn't GAF.

I'd rather my club didn't haven't the advantages it does, which is driven by market forces, I'd rather a more meritorious position, but that's not my choice, because I'll always follow my club wherever it goes.

The choice is yours.

 

[GC2015]

Nah Luke wouldn’t know, you got to ask the players that actually know like Pendles , Cripps, Dusty etc . They are the ones that know.

I understand you were being sarcastic in your comment, but Patrick Cripps stated a few years ago that Vic bias is real and he knows so because of his WA roots. On the same day Patrick Dangerfield compared his two experiences of playing at the Crows / Cats to confirm that it's real. Luke Hodge essentially stated in that video that it's real and said that Victorian clubs/fans don't realise how good they've got it because he lived it when comparing his Hawthorn experience with his years at Brisbane and described his football experience at the Lions as "much harder". It's important to point out that Hodge played finals with Brisbane so it's not as if he was playing in a terrible team and that made the experience really difficult. He even flat out said it was unfair for the higher seeded West Coast to play Hawthorn at their home ground in the 2015 AFL Grand Final. Those are the kinds of scenarios that will continue to pop up while we continue to have travel inadequacies and Grand Finals locked to the MCG every year.

How many anecdotes from former/current players do we need to hear from those who have played at the highest level for clubs in and out of Victoria before this is accepted as fact? It doesn't really matter what anyone on Bigfooty thinks because the opinions of the players obviously hold a lot more weight than anyone on here, but it's really the media that are preventing this from becoming universally accepted. They have a duty to the game to treat it like the national league it aspires to be and that means acknowledging the Vic advantages and pushing for ways to equalise the league to give non-Vic teams a fighting chance. It's too heavily in favour of Vic teams right now and that's evidenced by the fact that we've only seen three non-Victorian teams win the premiership since 2006.

 

[RonnieRaven]

I like how the AFL release they’re top 10 plays of the round whilst there’s a game going on in WA the last 2 weeks.

 

[sr36]

I understand you were being sarcastic in your comment, but Patrick Cripps stated a few years ago that Vic bias is real and he knows so because of his WA roots. On the same day Patrick Dangerfield compared his two experiences of playing at the Crows / Cats to confirm that it's real. Luke Hodge essentially stated in that video that it's real and said that Victorian clubs/fans don't realise how good they've got it because he lived it when comparing his Hawthorn experience with his years at Brisbane and described his football experience at the Lions as "much harder". It's important to point out that Hodge played finals with Brisbane so it's not as if he was playing in a terrible team and that made the experience really difficult. He even flat out said it was unfair for the higher seeded West Coast to play Hawthorn at their home ground in the 2015 AFL Grand Final. Those are the kinds of scenarios that will continue to pop up while we continue to have travel inadequacies and Grand Finals locked to the MCG every year.

How many anecdotes from former/current players do we need to hear from those who have played at the highest level for clubs in and out of Victoria before this is accepted as fact? It doesn't really matter what anyone on Bigfooty thinks because the opinions of the players obviously hold a lot more weight than anyone on here, but it's really the media that are preventing this from becoming universally accepted. They have a duty to the game to treat it like the national league it aspires to be and that means acknowledging the Vic advantages and pushing for ways to equalise the league to give non-Vic teams a fighting chance. It's too heavily in favour of Vic teams right now and that's evidenced by the fact that we've only seen three non-Victorian teams win the premiership since 2006.

Hodge was talking about the ground final. Of course it advantages Vic clubs. If he was talking about academies I assume he'd say it advantages Northern clubs.

Who knows what the captains were referencing, judging by this thread it could be something as petty that gives no football advamtage as a website releasing yhe top 10 plays of the round before the late Sunday game was finished. One thing you can be pretty confident about though is most of the captains haven't measured and evaluated the respective advantages in the comp to come up with an accurate analysis of overall advantage.

 

[Cleric]

GWS don't have many supporters.

Play the game in Perth and it would be the same, Richmond fans would completely out number the Giants wherever they played.

Below is 2018 GF pic, plenty of Eagles there despite Collingwood clearly having majority.

View attachment 2263254

You arnt trying to say that the interstate clubs get as many supporters into the ground as the Vic clubs are you?
You can watch any game of football and see opposition supporters around.
We are talking about the GF here. The biggest and most important game of the year. It's the one game where there shouldn't be any bias at all.
If you don't think it's an advantage for Richmond or Collingwood to play the GF at their home ground against an interstate club that plays there maybe once a year, with a smaller supporter presence, then I really don't know what to tell you.
It's OK to admit it is an advantage.

 

[Cleric]

Going around in circles again.

• MCG an advantage for tenant clubs on GF day, tick
• Marvel tenants get a somewhat advantage over non vic clubs on GF day (even if some non vic teams play more MCG games than Marvel tenants), tick
• Non vic clubs get 11 HGA games, tick
• The league is revenue driven, even though it's 'not for profit', tick
• The small vic clubs get the rough end of the stick, tick
• The non vic clubs get a less rough end of the stick, tick
• Northern clubs get an academy advantage over the rest of the competition, tick
• WA clubs could get academy advantage, tick

- The market is driven towards the vic market, coz it's the biggest market, has the most participants (players, coaches and staffers) and the most media, tick
The bolded explains the bias, it's not a conspiracy, as is conceded by most non vic fans itt.

The vic population (fans) outnumbers all other footy states and territories combined by over a million people, so if non vic fans wanna stop the bias because of market direction or even it up, have more population (fans) to validate it.

Stop your crying, or don't couldn't GAF, accept the club competition for what it is, or go follow the epl or nfl, which btw are not as equal as the v/afl. This is the choice for non vic fans, you can follow your clubs in your state leagues if you wish, but you don't, again, couldn't GAF.

I'd rather my club didn't haven't the advantages it does, which is driven by market forces, I'd rather a more meritorious position, but that's not my choice, because I'll always follow my club wherever it goes.

The choice is yours.

Correct.
That's only one side of the bias.
The fact that all the national football media is in Victoria, which sets the agenda and narratives in the public sphere is also an issue.
They will have a Kane Cornes on, but where are the WA people to offset the bias?
There are more Victorian teams and so have the largest voting block with the AFL.

So yes, there is a Vic bias in the national competition.
It is what it is, and it makes it even more enjoyable when an interstate team has success. The fact we even use the word "interstate" shows that up, and I use it as well.

 

[doppleganger]

You arnt trying to say that the interstate clubs get as many supporters into the ground as the Vic clubs are you?

Play a Richmond v GWS GF at any ground in Australia and their will be more Richmond fans at the ground.

That is because Richmond have a large invested supporter base and GWS don't.

You can watch any game of football and see opposition supporters around.

Pretty rare to see 25K+ Eagles fans at a H&A game in Melbourne.

You do get that many at the GF.

We are talking about the GF here. The biggest and most important game of the year. It's the one game where there shouldn't be any bias at all.

Why?
It was never a consideration before.
Nobody in WA cared that the GF was played at Subiaco's home ground.

GF have always been about getting the most fans in to watch.

If you don't think it's an advantage for Richmond or Collingwood to play the GF at their home ground against an interstate club that plays there maybe once a year, with a smaller supporter presence, then I really don't know what to tell you.

It has always been a minor advantage, worth a goal or so at most.

It ain't significant enough to blame a 10 goal loss on the ground.

It's OK to admit it is an advantage.

Yes, the one minor advantage Melbourne teams get.

Pity the H&A season is biased towards teams who have home games and aren't forced to play their home games at alternate venues.

Getting an easier path to a top 4 finish, and further advantage in weeks 1-3 is a fair advantage for the SA teams.

Pity SA teams can't win home finals.

 

[Cleric]

Play a Richmond v GWS GF at any ground in Australia and their will be more Richmond fans at the ground.

That is because Richmond have a large invested supporter base and GWS don't.

Pretty rare to see 25K+ Eagles fans at a H&A game in Melbourne.

You do get that many at the GF.

Why?
It was never a consideration before.
Nobody in WA cared that the GF was played at Subiaco's home ground.

GF have always been about getting the most fans in to watch.

It has always been a minor advantage, worth a goal or so at most.

It ain't significant enough to blame a 10 goal loss on the ground.

Yes, the one minor advantage Melbourne teams get.

Pity the H&A season is biased towards teams who have home games and aren't forced to play their home games at alternate venues.

Getting an easier path to a top 4 finish, and further advantage in weeks 1-3 is a fair advantage for the SA teams.

Pity SA teams can't win home finals.

What was the home ground advantage for Adelaide when they smashed Richmond in 2017? A goal or two?

Vic teams have to play at Marvel because the AFL owns the stadium and wants its revenue. It's the same reason Geelong can't play finals at Kadinia, but have to go to another Victorian teams home ground to play.
The biggest game of the year trumps a home and away game for having an advantage.

If SA teams arnt good enough to win a finals game at home then they wernt good enough to play in the GF. It's a talent thing.

 

[doppleganger]

What was the home ground advantage for Adelaide when they smashed Richmond in 2017? A goal or two?

Yep a couple of goals is what most models give as top end of HGA

Vic teams have to play at Marvel because the AFL owns the stadium and wants its revenue. It's the same reason Geelong can't play finals at Kadinia, but have to go to another Victorian teams home ground to play.

You are getting it, $$ over fairness and it is small Melbourne clubs that cop itm

The biggest game of the year trumps a home and away game for having an advantage.

Biggest game of the year has always been about $$.

If SA teams arnt good enough to win a finals game at home then they wernt good enough to play in the GF. It's a talent thing.

Correct it is talent

Hawks of mid 2010s were most talented team
Rich were most talented team of late 2010s

Both teams won big finals outside of Vic, including a GF for the Tigers.

And despite being less talented, SA teams keep getting their top4 H&A finishes due to the biased H&A fixture.