VFA Revival?

[SeaSide]

The AFL's focus is on the AFL. The last thing they want is grassroots football diverting attention (and especially money) away from the AFL - they want to maximise AFL memberships, attendances and revenue and people watching grassroots football instead is not what they want you to do.

That is apparent in the disdain they have shown for senior grassroots football in recent years. They want footballers to do what people do in US sports - stop playing by the age of 21 if they aren't good enough to play at an elite level and go and attend AFL games instead.

The only grassroots football the AFL cares about is the junior system because it feeds the AFL. Spending money on senior grassroots football is wasted spending in their eyes.

Hell will freeze over before they agree to this concept.

That is probably true, but sad.

 

[SeaSide]

That is probably true, but sad.

However, occasional footballers are selected from district or regional teams as AFL rookies, and several were this past season.
The concept of a VSFL/A would provide an opportunity for many talented suburban and country AFL hopefuls to play in a competitive league. Ideal for those who have been previously overlooked to be noticed and hopefully drafted.

This understanding would be beneficial for AFL recruiters, reducing their workload while offering hope to aspiring draftees.

 

[MortlockWatcher]

Reading Xavier Fowler's book on the 'Football War' has got me wondering whether WWII came at a fortuitous time for the VFL.

The VFA had been making great strides by the early 1940s and was starting to mount a challenge to the VFL's supremacy when the war intervened. By the VFL continuing right through the war years and the VFA suspending play, the association lost its momentum and never recovered.

 

[AussieNick1999]

Reading Xavier Fowler's book on the 'Football War' has got me wondering whether WWII came at a fortuitous time for the VFL.

The VFA had been making great strides by the early 1940s and was starting to mount a challenge to the VFL's supremacy when the war intervened. By the VFL continuing right through the war years and the VFA suspending play, the association lost its momentum and never recovered.

I'll be keen to pick up a copy as soon as I get back from the States.

 

[MortlockWatcher]

They had a launch at Readings in Carlton tonight, that might be a good starting point when you get back.

 

[The Tilt]

Reading Xavier Fowler's book on the 'Football War' has got me wondering whether WWII came at a fortuitous time for the VFL.

The VFA had been making great strides by the early 1940s and was starting to mount a challenge to the VFL's supremacy when the war intervened. By the VFL continuing right through the war years and the VFA suspending play, the association lost its momentum and never recovered.

I actually just finished reading this - a good read. Much as the VFA was mounting some kind of challenge before WWII, it has to be said that it was still a long behind the VFL, at least based on attendances: the closest the VFA got was average attendances around 30% of the VFL.
That said, one of the things I found interesting was that both the VFL and VFA were open to a merger post-war (i.e. with the VFA initially becoming the second division of the VFL), but each had their own version of how promotion and relegation would work and couldn't come to an agreement. The VFA wanted straight relegation/promotion of the top and bottom 2 clubs; the VFL wanted some kind of challenge system. I suspect the course of history would have been significantly altered had a merger come about.

 

[AussieNick1999]

I actually just finished reading this - a good read. Much as the VFA was mounting some kind of challenge before WWII, it has to be said that it was still a long behind the VFL, at least based on attendances: the closest the VFA got was average attendances around 30% of the VFL.
That said, one of the things I found interesting was that both the VFL and VFA were open to a merger post-war (i.e. with the VFA initially becoming the second division of the VFL), but each had their own version of how promotion and relegation would work and couldn't come to an agreement. The VFA wanted straight relegation/promotion of the top and bottom 2 clubs; the VFL wanted some kind of challenge system. I suspect the course of history would have been significantly altered had a merger come about.

The eventual AFL would have looked very different if such a merger had gone ahead. I can't see it evolving out of a merged VFA/VFL so maybe you'd see a smaller competition (e.g. 10-12 teams) with more even distribution between the states. You might see 4 of the strongest Victorian sides jump from the VFA/VFL to the national comp, but that's probably all you'd get from Victoria.

 

[MortlockWatcher]

In August 1986, seven VFL clubs – Collingwood, Fitzroy, Footscray, Geelong, Melbourne, North Melbourne and Richmond – were regarded as "technically insolvent" and the Victorian commissioner for Corporate Affairs, Gordon Lewis, wrote to the league "requesting advisement within seven days of what steps the VFL or its clubs’ company members propose to take to remedy the situation". The VFL was told by Lewis that unless the response “contained some viable proposals to remedy the present situation, it is my intention to carry out my statutory obligations”.

Lewis recalled in an Age article in May 2016 that he was not sure why he didn’t shut the competition down but maybe he didn’t want to be remembered as the man who stopped the football season one month before the finals. The VFL was able to convince Lewis to not wind up the VFL, with its response most certainly including the fact that it was going to include teams from interstate, whose licence fees would be distributed to the 12 clubs and allow them to become solvent.

Had the VFL not been able to convince Lewis, then the league and the seven clubs would have had to cease trading until such time that its obligations were able to be met.

We would have had a situation whereby the administration of the national league, which was in the midst of being rolled out for a 1987 start, would have been taken over by the NFL and it is likely that we would have had the five solvent VFL clubs, two SA clubs, two WA clubs and either a Brisbane or Tasmanian team form a 10-club NFL in 1987.

The VFA would have taken the mantle of the state's highest ranking competition and at the point when any of the seven technically insolvent clubs gained approval to resume trading, they would have had to join the VFA and try to join a national league from there.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

We would have had a situation whereby the administration of the national league, which was in the midst of being rolled out for a 1987 start, would have been taken over by the NFL and it is likely that we would have had the five solvent Melbourne clubs, two SA clubs, two WA clubs and either a Brisbane or Tasmanian team form a 10-club NFL in 1987.

Going to assume you're including the Sydney Swans in this? There were only four solvent clubs in Melbourne itself (Carlton, Essendon, Hawthorn, St Kilda).

 

[MortlockWatcher]

* five solvent VFL clubs

How St Kilda was solvent has me buggered. They were saddled with a significant debt in the early 1980s before Lindsay Cox engineered a repayment plan of something like seven cents in the dollar to creditors, including some of their greatest players.

Not long after, they were back in the red after paying overs on over the hill Carlton players.

 

[whiskeytown]

Interesting opinions

My take is that when the AFL Reserves comp eventuates… the VFL will remain.

Unlike WA and SA the AFL already owns the rights to the Victorian top tier football

To walk away from that…and allow potentially another league to form for the current non aligned VFL teams (plus others) … would be foolish

It would cost bugger all for the AFL to run the VFL comp without flights interstate. They’d go from paying for the comp to charging licence fees

All they’d need to do is set up a VFL website and they can stream the games as they do

And like the SANFL and WAFL, a functioning VFL comp would be a feeder to AFL lists and the AFL Reserves comp

So I think a VFL comp would still attract very good suburban players, I drafted kids and ex AFL listed players

Williamstown, Port Melbourne, Werribee, Box Hill, Coburg, Preston, Frankston, Sandringham, Casey..

The league would only need 1 more teams to have a 20 round home and away season with top 4 playing finals

All this is easily enough achieved

 

[eth-dog]

Interesting opinions

My take is that when the AFL Reserves comp eventuates… the VFL will remain.

Unlike WA and SA the AFL already owns the rights to the Victorian top tier football

To walk away from that…and allow potentially another league to form for the current non aligned VFL teams (plus others) … would be foolish

It would cost bugger all for the AFL to run the VFL comp without flights interstate. They’d go from paying for the comp to charging licence fees

All they’d need to do is set up a VFL website and they can stream the games as they do

And like the SANFL and WAFL, a functioning VFL comp would be a feeder to AFL lists and the AFL Reserves comp

So I think a VFL comp would still attract very good suburban players, I drafted kids and ex AFL listed players

Williamstown, Port Melbourne, Werribee, Box Hill, Coburg, Preston, Frankston, Sandringham, Casey..

The league would only need 1 more teams to have a 20 round home and away season with top 4 playing finals

All this is easily enough achieved

Box Hill and Casey would fold without their AFL partners

 

[whiskeytown]

Box Hill and Casey would fold without their AFL partners

Potentially… still 7 other teams. Add 3 more and there is a decent 2nd tier Melbourne comp

 

[eth-dog]

Potentially… still 7 other teams. Add 3 more and there is a decent 2nd tier Melbourne comp

Who do you propose come in? And tell us why would they leave their current comps?

 

[whiskeytown]

Who do you propose come in? And tell us why would they leave their current comps?

Big suburban clubs have ego, resources and ambition.

Why wouldn’t they leave their current comps… to join a more prestigious state comp?

Especially if that new comp pulls in ex AFL players and has televised games on a AFL/VFL website

History of the VFL and VFA is of clubs coming and going…

 

[eth-dog]

Big suburban clubs have ego, resources and ambition.

Why wouldn’t they leave their current comps… to join a more prestigious state comp?

Especially if that new comp pulls in ex AFL players and has televised games on a AFL/VFL website

History of the VFL and VFA is of clubs coming and going…

Let's say they approach the best Eastern (Balwyn), Northern (Heidelberg) and EDFL (Aberfeldie) clubs to join. These clubs would have to leave their much smaller pond where they're dominating, have a greatly reduced salary cap (Balwyn were paying more than double of Coburg last season, for example) for a dying comp. There are more former AFL players in Premier EFNL than VFL and all are broadcast online. Plus you get approximately triple the fans at a Premier EFNL game compared to two stand alone VFL teams

Only way VFL survives is if the AFL subsidised it. You're a bright eyed dreamer and I was too once, but it ain't happening

 

[random observer]

Interesting opinions

My take is that when the AFL Reserves comp eventuates… the VFL will remain.

Unlike WA and SA the AFL already owns the rights to the Victorian top tier football

To walk away from that…and allow potentially another league to form for the current non aligned VFL teams (plus others) … would be foolish

It would cost bugger all for the AFL to run the VFL comp without flights interstate. They’d go from paying for the comp to charging licence fees

All they’d need to do is set up a VFL website and they can stream the games as they do

And like the SANFL and WAFL, a functioning VFL comp would be a feeder to AFL lists and the AFL Reserves comp

So I think a VFL comp would still attract very good suburban players, I drafted kids and ex AFL listed players

Williamstown, Port Melbourne, Werribee, Box Hill, Coburg, Preston, Frankston, Sandringham, Casey..

The league would only need 1 more teams to have a 20 round home and away season with top 4 playing finals

All this is easily enough achieved

VFL revival...this one gets refloated every few months.

Of the standalone clubs, Casey and Box Hill are so thoroughly integrated with / colonized by their AFL masters that they could never survive separation. They would either fold, or be taken over outright.

Preston, Coburg and Frankston would just die - if they don't in the next few years anyway.

Port and Williamstown would have mass exoduses of players that they would be doing well to survive. Why bust your balls in a top tier comp, when you could get better coin and be a star in a side in another comp? This might seem soft, but it is perfectly rational.

MortlockWatcher explains it better than I can:

I would suggest that some of the prime candidates from metro competitions to join may be happier in their smaller pond with a good chance of success year on year, while a couple of clubs might have greater ambitions and want to play in such a league.

The key factor is money. Where will it come from? Not the AFL - why would they bankroll a competition that would compete with the AFL reserves in terms of players, sponsorships and supporters. As we saw with the VFA, the AFL are not going to help or fund a rival competition. The AFL would want you to watch their 2s, which would more than likely be curtain raisers to AFL matches, instead of spending your money outside of their bubble.

The media coverage for a new competition would be minimal. There would be no coverage in the dailies as any coverage would go to the AFL and the reserves - you may be lucky to get the scores in the Monday Herald-Sun. The local rags would be the only ones to cover it but it would be far from comprehensive, maybe just a short report - a far cry from the footy coverage we saw in the Leader newspapers in the 1970s and 1980s for the VFA and local leagues.

Without the money, media coverage and financial support from the AFL, this new league could well end up with the status of being just another suburban comp rather quickly unless it could find a sugar daddy (or daddies) to pump significant amounts of money to make it sustainable.

I feel such a competition would never reach the standing of the VFA in this current football landscape - despite the fact that most of us here want it to came back and be what it once was.

Big suburban clubs have ego, resources and ambition.

Why wouldn’t they leave their current comps… to join a more prestigious state comp?

Especially if that new comp pulls in ex AFL players and has televised games on a AFL/VFL website

It won't have televised games (refer MortlockWatcher above).

There is no extra prestige. The profile of suburban local footy has taken a battering. Most AFL fans would barely know it exists, and wouldn't care if they did - they would just think of the VFL as the least worst park footballers. The AFL's total neglect of local footy has destroyed any prestige it once had.

Reviving a top-tier Melbourne comp (like the VFA) is not realistic, as the VFA was in terminal decline long before its 1995 death. In the glory days of the VFA (1940s/50s), it was both good and local: it was near top level footy (relegation between then-VFL and the VFA was still a realistic possibility in the late 1940s) played by footballers mostly from the local community. By the end, it was neither: the standard had slipped to VFL reserves, while the number of local players was minimal. And the location of many of the sides make it unlikely they will get many local players.

My own take on a VFA revival:
Desirability: 10/10.
Practicality: 0/10.

 

[AussieNick1999]

VFL revival...this one gets refloated every few months.

Of the standalone clubs, Casey and Box Hill are so thoroughly integrated with / colonized by their AFL masters that they could never survive separation. They would either fold, or be taken over outright.

Preston, Coburg and Frankston would just die - if they don't in the next few years anyway.

Port and Williamstown would have mass exoduses of players that they would be doing well to survive. Why bust your balls in a top tier comp, when you could get better coin and be a star in a side in another comp? This might seem soft, but it is perfectly rational.

MortlockWatcher explains it better than I can:



It won't have televised games (refer MortlockWatcher above).

There is no extra prestige. The profile of suburban local footy has taken a battering. Most AFL fans would barely know it exists, and wouldn't care if they did - they would just think of the VFL as the least worst park footballers. The AFL's total neglect of local footy has destroyed any prestige it once had.

Reviving a top-tier Melbourne comp (like the VFA) is not realistic, as the VFA was in terminal decline long before its 1995 death. In the glory days of the VFA (1940s/50s), it was both good and local: it was near top level footy (relegation between then-VFL and the VFA was still a realistic possibility in the late 1940s) played by footballers mostly from the local community. By the end, it was neither: the standard had slipped to VFL reserves, while the number of local players was minimal. And the location of many of the sides make it unlikely they will get many local players.

My own take on a VFA revival:
Desirability: 10/10.
Practicality: 0/10.

I think you're being a bit harsh on Frankston and Coburg. The Lions have so far been competitive on the field and from what I've heard their membership numbers have improved a great deal.

Frankston meanwhile went from a bottom 4 team to a finalist last year, we've not only retained our most important players but also recruited well, and financially we're doing well. Our debt is wiped out and I'm confident our net loss from last year is going to be turned around this season. I don't appreciate the doom and gloom talk about our club when we've come a long way over the past nine years.

 

[whiskeytown]

VFL revival...this one gets refloated every few months.

Of the standalone clubs, Casey and Box Hill are so thoroughly integrated with / colonized by their AFL masters that they could never survive separation. They would either fold, or be taken over outright.

Preston, Coburg and Frankston would just die - if they don't in the next few years anyway.

Port and Williamstown would have mass exoduses of players that they would be doing well to survive. Why bust your balls in a top tier comp, when you could get better coin and be a star in a side in another comp? This might seem soft, but it is perfectly rational.

MortlockWatcher explains it better than I can:



It won't have televised games (refer MortlockWatcher above).

There is no extra prestige. The profile of suburban local footy has taken a battering. Most AFL fans would barely know it exists, and wouldn't care if they did - they would just think of the VFL as the least worst park footballers. The AFL's total neglect of local footy has destroyed any prestige it once had.

Reviving a top-tier Melbourne comp (like the VFA) is not realistic, as the VFA was in terminal decline long before its 1995 death. In the glory days of the VFA (1940s/50s), it was both good and local: it was near top level footy (relegation between then-VFL and the VFA was still a realistic possibility in the late 1940s) played by footballers mostly from the local community. By the end, it was neither: the standard had slipped to VFL reserves, while the number of local players was minimal. And the location of many of the sides make it unlikely they will get many local players.

My own take on a VFA revival:
Desirability: 10/10.
Practicality: 0/10.

The clear mistake being made is that you and the other poster assume that the AFL would have the following structure exist

WA: AFL, AFL reserves, WAFL

SA: AFL, AFL reserves, SANFL

Vic: AFL, AFL reserves, Spotswood (suburban football)

To leave that void in Victoria by not having a semi professional league from which AFL clubs can draft from or recruit top up players for their AFL reserves list…

This shows a real lack of understanding of the pathways, role that VFL plays for players, coaches etc

Even if it is correct that not enough of the current standalone clubs decide to participate in a 2nd tier semi professional league…

The AFL in that case would expand the Talent League to senior lists so that Oakleigh, Gippsland etc would then fill that void

But personally I think stand-alone clubs would want to participate in a Melbourne only VFL… as this is what they are in now and the AFL would fund such a league

And that would be more economical feasible for the AFL than to an expanded to senior age Talent League… because the VFL clubs draw crowds and sponsorship that the Coates Talent League clubs don’t

You’re effectively arguing that the VFL would just be wrapped up and the AFL would surrender the rights for that and allow those clubs to potentially organise themselves into a rival product

I’m sure if they could the AFL would acquire the SANFL and WAFL… the AFL goal being more control and less rival leagues

 

[whiskeytown]

Who do you propose come in? And tell us why would they leave their current comps?

See my post 44 ^

If you think the AFL is going to leave the void of not having a semi professional league in Victoria and just rely on Noble park etc for that pathway… then your the dreamer

And if you think they would leave a void that could be exploited by a new organisation or sports telecaster to set up a new Melbourne super league as Wilkt, Port, Werribee etc are now not contracted to the AFL… then that’s a lack of business acumen

The cost of running a Melbourne based VFL comp would be minimal compared to the current version

And whilst some playsrs will choose to play suburban footy for money and lifestyle… there are those who want a crack at the AFL or want to challenge themselves… who do currently play in the VFL, SANFL, WAFL and would continue to do so in a revised VFL comp that offers better pathways than local footy

 

[eth-dog]

See my post 44 ^

If you think the AFL is going to leave the void of not having a semi professional league in Victoria and just rely on Noble park etc for that pathway… then your the dreamer

And if you think they would leave a void that could be exploited by a new organisation or sports telecaster to set up a new Melbourne super league as Wilkt, Port, Werribee etc are now not contracted to the AFL… then that’s a lack of business acumen

The cost of running a Melbourne based VFL comp would be minimal compared to the current version

And whilst some playsrs will choose to play suburban footy for money and lifestyle… there are those who want a crack at the AFL or want to challenge themselves… who do currently play in the VFL, SANFL, WAFL and would continue to do so in a revised VFL comp that offers better pathways than local footy

Still doesn't answer why these clubs would elect to leave their current comps to join a dying league where they can't pay their players as much, have lower crowds and have more travel than before.

Pure and unadulterated delusion. The only way the VFL survives is with AFL teams as part of it.

 

[whiskeytown]

Still doesn't answer why these clubs would elect to leave their current comps to join a dying league where they can't pay their players as much, have lower crowds and have more travel than before.

Pure and unadulterated delusion. The only way the VFL survives is with AFL teams as part of it.

Literally did not counter any of my points.

Except you reckon a Melbourne only VFL would be a lot more travel… because there are not already suburban and country leagues where travel is required?

125,000 posts… If you’re the best the Essendon board has to offer little wonder that club is bereft of ideas

 

[eth-dog]

Literally did not counter any of my points.

Except you reckon a Melbourne only VFL would be a lot more travel… because there are not already suburban and country leagues where travel is required?

125,000 posts… If you’re the best the Essendon board has to offer little wonder that club is bereft of ideas

Literal delusion and missing the point entirely.

Say you're Balwyn. Your biggest trip is 30 minutes down to Berwick. You have a larger salary cap where you are. You earn more money in the EFNL. You get larger crowds in the EFNL. In the VFL you're talking about a couple of trips that would be over an hour. Why are you moving away from there with no commercial benefits, longer travel and also less likely to win flags?

You're either creating new clubs from scratch or enticing big clubs across from existing leagues. Give me a good reason for them to join.

 

[MortlockWatcher]

Literal delusion and missing the point entirely.

Say you're Balwyn. Your biggest trip is 30 minutes down to Berwick. You have a larger salary cap where you are. You earn more money in the EFNL. You get larger crowds in the EFNL. In the VFL you're talking about a couple of trips that would be over an hour. Why are you moving away from there with no commercial benefits, longer travel and also less likely to win flags?

You're either creating new clubs from scratch or enticing big clubs across from existing leagues. Give me a good reason for them to join.

And we will see what happened in the 1970s and 1980s again.

The VFL (AFL) clubs will have seniors and reserves aligned so that 1s and 2s play each other on the same weekend and the reserves teams will be allowed to have a supplementary list of between 15 -20 to top up the reserves list. Those guys will play metro footy when they are not required (exactly what happens today with players transferring between the VFL and metro footy).

The VFL (VFA) will become separate from the process once again.

As a consequence of it not being part of the AFL junior to senior pathway, the VFL will not be funded and will disband because it is unsustainable and would have very little media profile to provide enough interest for big sponsorships to jump aboard (imagine the VFL now if it had no media profile - weekly TV coverage, no radio coverage and no print coverage - pretty much what the VFA was at the period it started to hemorrhage clubs in the mid 1980s apart from the fact they got previews and reviews in the metro papers twice a week).

As the AFL has intimated all along they will not fund both an AFL reserves and a VFL - they will fund only one plus they will continue to fund the Under 18 comp as it is a definitive part of the junior pathway.

 

[whiskeytown]

Literal delusion and missing the point entirely.

Say you're Balwyn. Your biggest trip is 30 minutes down to Berwick. You have a larger salary cap where you are. You earn more money in the EFNL. You get larger crowds in the EFNL. In the VFL you're talking about a couple of trips that would be over an hour. Why are you moving away from there with no commercial benefits, longer travel and also less likely to win flags?

You're either creating new clubs from scratch or enticing big clubs across from existing leagues. Give me a good reason for them to join.

Why do people play VFL now then? If you’re silly insistence was right then VFL lists would be struggling to fill themselves but they are not.

And your travel point still ignored country footy… ignores teams like Werribee centrals travelling to Winchelsea for games, etc, etc

and ignores VAFA where players earn nothing and travel from Preston to Clayton or Ringwood to Brunswick

Give it up