Conspiracy Theory The Russia-Ukraine War

[Zidane98]

Oliver Stone, Jeffrey Sachs, and Tucker ****ing Carlson?

Sure, sounds like just the independent, unbiased opinions I've been looking for.

I'm a bit busy, but I'll definitely bookmark it to watch it later.

Was that an April fools joke by any chance?



Utterly ridiculous whoever posted that.

 

[Lebbo73]

Russian troops were not attacked by Ukranian forces in 2014 in Crimea back in 2014. This is disinformation.


Russia had an agreement to station troops at the Sevastopol naval base until 2042. This was honored by Ukraine - Russia broke the agreement by using troops to occupy Crimea. They had permission to travel to and from Russia to this naval base but no permission at all to enter Ukranian territory.

They did this late Feb 2014, taking over Ukranian military bases which were generally poorly manned in those days as it wasn't expected that Russia would act like a bunch of fascist invaders.

Poor wording. The people of these provinces were attacked by Ukrainian forces. Russia stepped in to protect them!

 

[Zidane98]

Poor wording. The people of these provinces were attacked by Ukrainian forces. Russia stepped in to protect them!

April fools day was yesterday.

 

[Lebbo73]

April fools day was yesterday.

The only April fool is you. It was reported at the time and it’s all here in this thread!

Btw, MH17 and MH370 are related and I’m not referring to Malaysian Airlines.

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

Russian troops were not attacked by Ukranian forces in 2014 in Crimea back in 2014. This is disinformation.

Russia had an agreement to station troops at the Sevastopol naval base until 2042. This was honored by Ukraine - Russia broke the agreement by using troops to occupy Crimea. They had permission to travel to and from Russia to this naval base but no permission at all to enter Ukranian territory.

They did this late Feb 2014, taking over Ukranian military bases which were generally poorly manned in those days as it wasn't expected that Russia would act like a bunch of fascist invaders.

I think he meant that in 2014 Ukrainian forces attacked the Russian-speaking people in those regions. After the Euromaidan and the Revolution of Dignity and the ousting of Viktor Yanukovych, demonstrations by pro-Russian groups took place in Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk and Kharkiv. Ukraine sent in forces to quell the unrest. Russia then moved to protect those people (or so it said). Interestingly Crimea was originally Russian but Khrushchev gave the region to Ukraine to strengthen the “brotherly ties between the Ukrainian and Russian peoples.”

 

[Zidane98]

I think he meant that in 2014 Ukrainian forces attacked the Russian-speaking people in those regions. After the Euromaidan and the Revolution of Dignity and the ousting of Viktor Yanukovych, demonstrations by pro-Russian groups took place in Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk and Kharkiv. Ukraine sent in forces to quell the unrest. Russia then moved to protect those people (or so it said). Interestingly Crimea was originally Russian but Khrushchev gave the region to Ukraine to strengthen the “brotherly ties between the Ukrainian and Russian peoples.”

That's also nonsense. The unrest was little green men from Russia attacking Ukrainian forces.

Crimea was Ottoman Empire until Russia invaded. Sound familiar?

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

That's also nonsense. The unrest was little green men from Russia attacking Ukrainian forces.

No. The little green men came shortly after the protests/demonstrations had already started.

The events in Kyiv that ousted Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych on 22 February 2014 sparked both pro-Russian and anti-separatism demonstrations in Crimea. At the same time, Russian president Vladimir Putin told his security chiefs to begin work on "returning Crimea to Russia". On 27 February, Russian special forces without insignia seized strategic sites across Crimea.

2014 Russian annexation of Crimea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Protesters clash in Crimea

Rival demonstrators held simultaneous rallies outside the parliament in Simferopol - the capital of the automonous province. Ethnic Russians are demanding their parliament not recognise the new authorities in Kiev, while representatives of the Crimean tatar ethnic minority support the new...

www.dw.com

This next Youtube link won't unfurl so you have to go to Youtube to watch it. Pro-Russian Ukrainians rally outside Crimean parliament

Crimea was Ottoman Empire until Russia invaded.

Yeah. I was talking about modern history. I mean the Ottoman empire took it from the Mongol horde about 600 years ago didn't they? There's been many regime changes in Crimea area over the years. Much like many other areas of Europe. Look at England and other parts of the UK. The Romans invaded and took over from the Celts, then the Anglo Saxons took over after Rome withdrew, then the last real invasion was the Normans (if you overlook the Dutch coming over in 1688 to depose James II).

 

[Zidane98]

No. The little green men came shortly after the protests/demonstrations had already started.

2014 Russian annexation of Crimea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yeah. I was talking about modern history. I mean the Ottoman empire took it from the Mongol horde about 600 years ago didn't they? There's been many regime changes in Crimea area over the years. Much like many other areas of Europe. Look at England and other parts of the UK. The Romans invaded and took over from the Celts, then the Anglo Saxons took over after Rome withdrew, then the last real invasion was the Normans (if you overlook the Dutch coming over in 1688 to depose James II).

Exactly the reason why it's Ukranian.

Putin signed a border treaty in 2003 recognising this.

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

Exactly the reason why it's Ukranian.

Putin signed a border treaty in 2003 recognising this.

Well when they gave them Crimea in 1954 I don't they quite envisaged the events of early 2014.

Very soon after Yanukovych was ousted, Ukraine scrapped their non-aligned status (policy not to join military alliances) and later amended its constitution to explicitly spell out its desire to join NATO, and joining NATO remains the official policy of Ukraine.

Imagine if Mexico joined the Warsaw Pact during the Cold War. How would the US react?

 

[Zidane98]

Well when they gave them Crimea in 1954 I don't they quite envisaged the events of early 2014.

Very soon after Yanukovych was ousted, Ukraine scrapped their non-aligned status (policy not to join military alliances) and later amended its constitution to explicitly spell out its desire to join NATO, and joining NATO remains the official policy of Ukraine.

Imagine if Mexico joined the Warsaw Pact during the Cold War. How would the US react?

You've quite pretty much every bullshit Russian falsehood under the sun here

Fact - Ukraine was non aligned in 2014.

Fact - Ukraine's constitution precluded any alliance membership until 2019.

Fact - Ukraine is not a NATO member

Ukraine had no interesting joining NATO until Russia tried to impose fascism on it for no longer wanting to be a puppet state of Putin.

Russia is the problem here.

 

[Zidane98]

Also worth pointing out large parts of Rostov & Belgorod oblast were given to Russia from Ukraine by the USSR.

Russia needs to give these territories back if it believes in its Crimea claim.

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

You've quite pretty much every bullshit Russian falsehood under the sun here

Pretty big claim. Let's see how it pans out.

Fact - Ukraine was non aligned in 2014.

For most of 2014 yes. I never said it wasn't. Strike 1.

Fact - Ukraine's constitution precluded any alliance membership until 2019.

Never said it didn't. Strike 2.

Fact - Ukraine is not a NATO member

Never said it was. Strike 3 and you're out!

 

[bourbons]

Poor wording. The people of these provinces were attacked by Ukrainian forces. Russia stepped in to protect them!

Da comrade, da.

Thats exactly what happened

 

[Zidane98]

Pretty big claim. Let's see how it pans out.



For most of 2014 yes. I never said it wasn't. Strike 1.

It was non aligned until 2019. Joining a military alliance was impossible until this amendment.


Yet you said

Very soon after Yanukovych was ousted, Ukraine scrapped their non-aligned status (policy not to join military alliances)


False statement.

Russia also was a NATO security partner up until 2020. Russia signed the 1997 NATO-Russia founding act.

Russia signed the 2003 Ukranian border treaty - including absolute recognition of Crimea as Ukranian territory

Do you recognise the signature below?

Never said it didn't. Strike 2.



Never said it was. Strike 3 and you're out!

View attachment 2270142

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

It was non aligned until 2019. Joining a military alliance was impossible until this amendment.

Yet you said

Very soon after Yanukovych was ousted, Ukraine scrapped their non-aligned status (policy not to join military alliances)

False statement.

It's straight from a Politico article mate. Are you going to claim Politifact is Russian disinfo?

Ask PolitiFact: Has Ukraine tried to join NATO?

Russian President Vladimir Putin has long cited NATO’s expansion into Eastern Europe as a pretext for his country’s inva

www.politifact.com

What about Wikipedia?

On 23 December 2014, the Ukrainian parliament renounced Ukraine's non-aligned status, a step harshly condemned by Russia.

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Zidane98]

It's straight from a Politico article mate. Are you going to claim Politifact is Russian disinfo?

Ask PolitiFact: Has Ukraine tried to join NATO?

Russian President Vladimir Putin has long cited NATO’s expansion into Eastern Europe as a pretext for his country’s inva

www.politifact.com

What about Wikipedia?

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ukraine was unable to join any military alliance until 2019 at the earliest.

Ukraine's parliament backs changes to Constitution confirming Ukraine's path toward EU, NATO

A total of 334 deputies of 385 registered at the session hall have supported the law.

www.unian.info

This is a stone cold, indisputable fact. The Rada voted on 7 Feb 2019 to allow Ukraine joining NATO and the European Union.


334 out of 385 deputies voted in favor of this. 17 against. The rest abstained.


Up until this point Ukraine was no different to Russia in that it was a security partner of NATO. Joining NATO before this point was an impossibility.


Russia obviously no longer is a security partner of NATO any longer.

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

Ukraine was unable to join any military alliance until 2019 at the earliest.

Ukraine's parliament backs changes to Constitution confirming Ukraine's path toward EU, NATO

A total of 334 deputies of 385 registered at the session hall have supported the law.

www.unian.info

This is a stone cold, indisputable fact. The Rada voted on 7 Feb 2019 to allow Ukraine joining NATO and the European Union.


334 out of 385 deputies voted in favor of this. 17 against. The rest abstained.

Fk me. You don't believe Politico, or Wikipedia.

How about the BBC?

Ukraine votes to drop non-aligned status

Ukraine's parliament votes to drop the country's non-aligned status and work towards Nato membership, a move quickly criticised by Russia.

www.bbc.com

FACT. They adopted their non-aligned status in 2010 after pressure from Russia. They voted to reverse that 2010 decision in 2014. Pretty simple.

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

 

[Zidane98]

Fk me. You don't believe Politico, or Wikipedia.

How about the BBC?

Ukraine votes to drop non-aligned status

Ukraine's parliament votes to drop the country's non-aligned status and work towards Nato membership, a move quickly criticised by Russia.

www.bbc.com

FACT. They adopted their non-aligned status in 2010 after pressure from Russia. They voted to reverse that 2010 decision in 2014. Pretty simple.

You can quote who you like.


The facts are that the Ukranian constitution was amended on the 7th of Feb 2019 to allow joining NATO and European Union. I'm gonig to be very clear and quote the actual constitution below

Constitution of Ukraine (as amended up to 2019) | Refworld

www.refworld.org

Amendment No 2680-VIII was voted on by the Rada on whether Ukraine could join NATO and European Union.

300 votes are required for a constitutional amendment. 334 voted for this.


There was no constitutional change on 23rd December 2014 at all.


No amount of Pro Rusian lies you quote is going to change this.


NATO-Ukraine had a partnership agreement they signed in 1997 to cooperate on security. This is not NATO memberhsip.

Russia also signed a NATO-Russia partnership agreement in 1997.

 

[Zidane98]

Utter nonsense. Millions of Ukranians protested against Yanukovych throwing away Ukraine's future to do Putin's bidding on Russia's behalf.

Russian Nazis are not welcome in Ukraine and never will be. Putin is Hitler, everything he does in Ukraine is a close match to Hitler's actions prior to WW2. This is why Putin is an ostracized international pariah where Zelensky is embraced by the international community.

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

Utter nonsense.

The tweet I posted was in response to this one and it is this one my focus was on. I don't know why it didn't post with the response.

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

You can quote who you like.

Great. I will. Until you get it though your head you're confusing terms. You think that because a non-aligned status (or a policy of non-alignment if you will) means non-membership of NATO, then a reversal of that status or policy equals automatic membership of NATO?

Let's follow your rational to its logical conclusion.

Ukraine didn't adopt it's non-aligned status (or policy if it makes it clearer) until 2010. Does that mean before 2010 it was a NATO member? No, obviously that's an absurd position. Similarly when I repeated the claims from Politico, Wikipedia and the BBC that Ukraine voted in 2014 to scrap or renounce the position they adopted 4 years earlier I wasn't claiming they automatically became members of NATO as you keep dishonestly mischaracterising me as doing.

Ukraine drops non-aligned status in swipe at Moscow

Ukraine’s parliament on Tuesday voted to abandon the country’s non-aligned status, a move that could be a step toward seeking membership in NATO.

www.france24.com

Ukraine Votes To Abandon Neutrality

Ukraine's parliament has voted to abandon the country's neutral "non-bloc" status and set a course for NATO membership, a move immediately denounced by Russia as "unfriendly."

www.rferl.org

 

[Zidane98]

Great. I will. Until you get it though your head you're confusing terms. You think that because a non-aligned status (or a policy of non-alignment if you will) means non-membership of NATO, then a reversal of that status or policy equals automatic membership of NATO?

Let's follow your rational to its logical conclusion.

Ukraine didn't adopt it's non-aligned status (or policy if it makes it clearer) until 2010. Does that mean before 2010 it was a NATO member? No, obviously that's an absurd position. Similarly when I repeated the claims from Politico, Wikipedia and the BBC that Ukraine voted in 2014 to scrap or renounce the position they adopted 4 years earlier I wasn't claiming they automatically became members of NATO as you keep dishonestly mischaracterising me as doing.

Ukraine drops non-aligned status in swipe at Moscow

Ukraine’s parliament on Tuesday voted to abandon the country’s non-aligned status, a move that could be a step toward seeking membership in NATO.

www.france24.com

Ukraine Votes To Abandon Neutrality

Ukraine's parliament has voted to abandon the country's neutral "non-bloc" status and set a course for NATO membership, a move immediately denounced by Russia as "unfriendly."

www.rferl.org

You're really struggling here. Ukraine could not join NATO before 7 Feb 2019. It was not possible.

This is an absolute fact.

Policies are different to constitutional amendments. Obviously. Policies change all the time from administration to administration.

I do note you admitted that Russia invaded Ukraine in Feb 2014 when Ukraine's current policies were non alignment.

It's notable you have zero Ukranian constitutional amendments to support your argument.

Also, going by your logic Russia wanted to join NATO because it had a partnership agreement from 1997 - 2020.

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

You're really struggling here.

This is the best example I've seen of psychological projection for a long time.

Faced with 4 media articles and a Wikpedia quote backing my original point that they voted to renounce or scrap their non-alignment policy adopted 4 years earlier here you are still unapologetic and doubling down on that being 'Russian Disinformation'. You then try and deflect by bringing up totally irrelevant straw man arguments about 2019.

You're totally cooked.

 

[Zidane98]

This is the best example I've seen of psychological projection for a long time.

Faced with 4 media articles and a Wikpedia quote backing my original point that they voted to renounce or scrap their non-alignment policy adopted 4 years earlier here you are still unapologetic and doubling down on that being 'Russian Disinformation'. You then try and deflect by bringing up totally irrelevant straw man arguments about 2019.

You're totally cooked.

Lol.

Says the poster who openly posts pro Russian propaganda.

You don't have a Ukraine constitutional amendment to support your false argument.

I do. Game set and match vatnik.