The old suburban VFL/AFL grounds

[SJ]

What's the pronunciation of 'Princes Park?'

I've always said and intended to say 'Princess Park,' simply because 'Princes' sounds essentially the same when conjoined with 'Park.' About a month ago I was talking about it to some people who weren't hugely clued up on Optus Oval, and they were calling me out for arguing it was pronounced as 'Princess.'

I'll stand correct. But can anyone give me an origin of the name? Much like most of Melbourne and old Australia, I can understand the regal vibe, but why is it plural but not possessive? It's just awkward. If you were to name it prince as a general noun, then sure, but surely it's the park for all the British Princes? As in, it's for them... Princes' Park, Prince's Park...

Also, did anyone go to the Big Day Out there in 06/07?

The pronunciation of 'Princes' is, surprisingly, 'princes'.

 

[mianfei]

Hey? But didn't plenty of clubs manage to build grandstands in the 1960s? Didn't St Kilda, Collingwood, Footscray, Carlton, and the Bombers all manage to build new stands? I mean the Blues were even able to not necessarily afford, but definitely build a stand in the late 1990s.

Also, pretty much every club in Australia was struggling at some point. Collingwood had no money at one stage. Richmond were on a death bed with as little of a chance as the Bullies at one point. Could this club feasibly continue to upgrade grounds? If other clubs could go well in those times, and some did, then surely it's all a matter of investment and management (which essentially, when you go back a long way, is what axed Fitzroy).

And I guess the other question is why would a club spend a lot of money itself when it doesn't have to? I mean Essendon are a great example. Why pump their own money into Windy Hill when they can up and leave to the MCG? There's no point but romanticism in staying in Essendon. The MCG is entirely funded by non-Essendon cash, has a bigger capacity, is easier to reach, is safer for kids. I mean there's no way these clubs would voluntarily plunge money into their own facilities when they don't have to –– clubs won't even do it with training facilities now. Don't North share it with a public pool? Collingwood have the Demons, Victory, and Storm all out of their pockets. The Hawks went to a facility that was essentially paid for by surrounding buildings. The Bulldogs and Saints couldn't afford their gyms and HQ without government grants that only come because people in the West and Franga can use them too.

I think rationalisation is and was inevitable. It's totally different in the UK. You can't compare the US model either because you don't have 10 teams in New York. I'm sure if we had two 150-year old clubs, West Melbourne and East Melbourne, who hated each other and sold out games, we'd have a big stadium for each as well (like American franchises). Sydney's NRL teams are being pressured into it now too and that competition is a bush league in comparison to how the AFL runs.

I can understand your perspective, but the trouble is that rationalisation is and always will be too ludicrously unfair for me to not look for potential alternatives even in the remote past.

The issue of rent control (more accurately a fixed rent) is an overlooked one for most people – I have read economic textbooks from the Austrian School and that’s why I’ve tried unsuccessfully to talk about the question – may be just a bandwagon for me, but it’s hardly likely that with free-to-vary ticket prices there would have been no difference to what VFL clubs did or had the finances to afford.

Also, I think the reason ground rationalisation proved unavoidable is that Australian football is crucially different from low-scoring-context team sports of Europe and the Americas like soccer, gridiron, baseball and ice hockey (to a large extent the NRL too). Whereas in those low-scoring-context team sports fans primarily seek excitement from the match, in Australian football audiences primarily seek entertainment and skill – which the high scoring of Australian Rules can provide much more than the less land-intensive sports which must be played in mountainous countries of the northern and western hemispheres. The higher competitive balance produced when each club has its own ground and there are fewer clubs in a metropolitan area or league is not optimal in football like it is in the lower scoring contexts of European or most American team sports, owing to the high marginal capacity to attract fans of the bigger clubs. If under the short schedules the wear and tear of Australian Rules necessitate those popular clubs did not receive easy games, people would not attend matches so often and television audiences would decline by an even larger proportion. Many fans can become uninterested from merely not knowing their team will win, whereas in European and most American team sports scoring is low and such certainly less frequent.

 

[My North]

bring back the old suburban VFL grounds

 

[bombersfan4000]

bring back the old suburban VFL grounds

the demons never really had a suburban ground, they had the MCG

 

[Silent Alarm]

Many fans can become uninterested from merely not knowing their team will win, whereas in European and most American team sports scoring is low and such certainly less frequent.

What about in the EPL where every team has a ground but only two or three will ever win anything?

 

[bombersfan4000]

What about in the EPL where every team has a ground but only two or three will ever win anything?

the EPL has world wide interest backed up by other major soccer clubs supporting the EPL clubs as well as several billion dollar broadcast deals, & the UK has a population of 60 odd million more money to pay for stadiums.

AFL isnt a world game, like soccer is

maybe is the AFl was a bit like the NRL, where the crowds are crap, and a club ground with a stand & some hills would be sufficient a few more clubs teams might have their own club ground

 

[SJ]

the EPL has world wide interest backed up by other major soccer clubs supporting the EPL clubs as well as several billion dollar broadcast deals, & the UK has a population of 60 odd million more money to pay for stadiums.

AFL isnt a world game, like soccer is

maybe is the AFl was a bit like the NRL, where the crowds are crap, and a club ground with a stand & some hills would be sufficient a few more clubs teams might have their own club ground

The EPL has about a third of its clubs playing out of stadiums smaller than Kardinia Park.

Would you rather every team had their own ground, or that every/most fans of a team can go and watch them play whenever they want?

 

[Old Shinboner]

Its a shame that when grounds like the Lake Oval, Junction Oval, Arden Street and even Windy Hill closed shop that there weren't more photographs taken of these grounds.

I have contacted the clubs and they don't have much in the way of old photos. The grounds that closed in the mid to late 90s such as Vic Park, Western Oval, Princes Park etc all had quite big farewells, panoramic photos of the ground were taken and turned into limited edition prints.

I attended the last ever game at Arden Street against Richmond and there were about 5,000 people there. Can't remember any sort of fuss being made, that was just that. And very few photos of the old girl in all her glory seem to exist unfortunately. They were the good old days.

 

[SJ]

Its a shame that when grounds like the Lake Oval, Junction Oval, Arden Street and even Windy Hill closed shop that there weren't more photographs taken of these grounds.

I have contacted the clubs and they don't have much in the way of old photos. The grounds that closed in the mid to late 90s such as Vic Park, Western Oval, Princes Park etc all had quite big farewells, panoramic photos of the ground were taken and turned into limited edition prints.

I attended the last ever game at Arden Street against Richmond and there were about 5,000 people there. Can't remember any sort of fuss being made, that was just that. And very few photos of the old girl in all her glory seem to exist unfortunately. They were the good old days.

Maybe contact the admin here: http://boylesfootballphotos.net.au/

 

[bombersfan4000]

The EPL has about a third of its clubs playing out of stadiums smaller than Kardinia Park.

Would you rather every team had their own ground, or that every/most fans of a team can go and watch them play whenever they want?

mate id love for every team to have their own ground, but there isn't the money in the AFL like their is in the EPL, broadcasters around the world are lining up and offering billions of dollars for rights, outside of Australia that isn't quite happening for the AFL, many of the smaller Victorian based teams are struggling to break even let alone, funding a stadium as well

 

[SJ]

mate id love for every team to have their own ground, but there isn't the money in the AFL like their is in the EPL, broadcasters around the world are lining up and offering billions of dollars for rights, outside of Australia that isn't quite happening for the AFL, many of the smaller Victorian based teams are struggling to break even let alone, funding a stadium as well

You don't seem to be getting my point.

 

[bombersfan4000]

You don't seem to be getting my point.

i get your point, but for Melbourne based clubs to get their own home ground, isnt going to happen, the money just inst there in the AFL

 

[SJ]

i get your point, but for Melbourne based clubs to get their own home ground, isnt going to happen, the money just inst there in the AFL

I didn't say it was going to happen.

In fact I was alluding to the benefits of it not happening - the fact that a football league far richer than our own has grounds that wouldn't even accommodate fans of our smallest AFL clubs, means that there is no feasibility for every team to have their own ground and for those grounds to accommodate all the fans.

Ground rationalisation means attending the footy is feasible and (relatively) cheap.

 

[Perry Pie]

the EPL has world wide interest backed up by other major soccer clubs supporting the EPL clubs as well as several billion dollar broadcast deals, & the UK has a population of 60 odd million more money to pay for stadiums.

AFL isnt a world game, like soccer is

maybe is the AFl was a bit like the NRL, where the crowds are crap, and a club ground with a stand & some hills would be sufficient a few more clubs teams might have their own club ground

A key factor is that the EPL teams play 19 league home games every season plus a few more with cup games and other games. For the big clubs in European comps it is a minimum of 3 home games against big European clubs. (this is in addition to entry being more expensive than for the AFL and the corporate + TV money being much greater, however those things are balanced by astronimical player payments). In short the ground more than pay for the construction and use just because they get more use than 1 AFL club can provide.
To pay for a ground at least 2 AFL clubs would have to share a ground without some form of central subsidy if the EPL model is followed.
In most of the rest of Europe the grounds are local authority grounds of some sort, a bit like most AFL grounds that are subsidised by State Govts etc.
I think rationalisation went too far in Melbourne where 9 clubs share 2 grounds but I dont see that changing as any new suburban / boutique ground will just take money away from the MCG and whatever its called this year.

 

[Teagueeee15]

The Carlton Intra Club game being on gave me an excuse to go down and take another look at Princes Park (now Ikon park). At least since I was last there somebody has cleaned up most of the junk that had been left on the concourses.

I took a pictures from a number of different spots in the ground so that people can gauge the typical view from different sections of the ground.

A lot of the seats have plaques on them. I guess the particular seat belonged to that person.

Old turnstiles and toilet blocks that had been inaccessible or blocked off previously.

 

[Teagueeee15]

 

[Gibbsy]

Such an awesome stadium, seeing the stand chopped in half makes me sad, RIP the Heatley Stand. I hope that footy returns to that ground one day.

 

[LB#16]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the building in the right forward pocket?

 

[Groupie_]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the building in the right forward pocket?

It's Führerbunker ya douche

Nah jokes it's their training facility

 

[fabulousphil]

Look i don't even like Carlton, i actually detest them but you know what, they have a very good jumper and very distinctive CFC insignia that does not seem to date.

 

[blueboy25]

Look i don't even like Carlton, i actually detest them but you know what, they have a very good jumper and very distinctive CFC insignia that does not seem to date.

May I ask why so much hatred for the Blues Phil? Not a big rival of freo or is it from a past life?

 

[fabulousphil]

May I ask why so much hatred for the Blues Phil? Not a big rival of freo or is it from a past life?

Hatred in a sporting sense, hated them as a kid, i was a Collingwood fan.

I guess that explains it right

Bit like Richmond when they were flying, the arrogance just oozes out of them.

 

[blueboy25]

Hatred in a sporting sense, hated them as a kid, i was a Collingwood fan.

I guess that explains it right

Say no more

 

[Gibbsy]

Hatred in a sporting sense, hated them as a kid, i was a Collingwood fan.

I guess that explains it right

Bit like Richmond when they were flying, the arrogance just oozes out of them.

Shouldn't have swapped teams!!

And I'm guessing your name isn't Phil either – rather a reference to the great P. Carman?

 

[fabulousphil]

Shouldn't have swapped teams!!

And I'm guessing your name isn't Phil either – rather a reference to the great P. Carman?

You are indeed correct, untill Daicos turned up with Millane fab phil was the man.

still have a real soft spot for the pies