Play Nice The NM Devil's Chessboard Thread - Part II

[ferball]

I'm going to put it to you that not everyone in the world shares your deeply US-centric worldview. Those Russians certainly don't it see that way.

Does that make them "wrong" by definition?

I don't see any problem in local towns in the US memorialising their Iraq War dead. I don't see any issue in German town memorialising those who died in 1939 - 45 either, as long as they are jusat remembering local soldiers, not commemorating the regime.

25th of April 1915 is the day we invaded Turkey.

Your beloved Ulkranians are very keen on memorialising the hideous far right anti semitic genocidal maniac Stepan Bandera and his OUN monsters though.

Bandera is a good guy. He fought Russians.

 

[The Warlord]

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/ukraine-bondholder-group-unable-reach-deal-formal-20-bln-debt-talks-2024-06-17/#:~:text=An%20agreement%20with%20holders%20of,an%20agreement%20by%20Aug.%201.

Ukraine is bankrupt. Proper bankrupt, not make believe Western propaganda bankrupt, but actually bankrupt.

The Group of Seven rich democracies agreed on Thursday to use proceeds from frozen Russian assets to give Ukraine $50 billion in loans. Since the start of the war, international partners such as the World Bank and IMF have also provided more than $85 billion, opens new tab in state budget financing to Kyiv.

And when they've run out stolen Russian assets?

 

[ferball]

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/ukraine-bondholder-group-unable-reach-deal-formal-20-bln-debt-talks-2024-06-17/#:~:text=An%20agreement%20with%20holders%20of,an%20agreement%20by%20Aug.%201.

View attachment 2023148

Ukraine is bankrupt. Proper bankrupt, not make believe Western propaganda bankrupt, but actually bankrupt.



And when they've run out stolen Russian assets?

Get a loan from BRICs.

 

[DesertRoo]

I'm going to put it to you that not everyone in the world shares your deeply US-centric worldview. Those Russians certainly don't it see that way.

Does that make them "wrong" by definition?

I don't see any problem in local towns in the US memorialising their Iraq War dead. I don't see any issue in German town memorialising those who died in 1939 - 45 either, as long as they are jusat remembering local soldiers, not commemorating the regime.

Your beloved Ulkranians are very keen on memorialising the hideous far right anti semitic genocidal maniac Stepan Bandera and his OUN monsters though.

I’ll put it out there that a large percentage of democrats don’t even support his American centric world view…

 

[DesertRoo]

PuTiN's RuSsIa Is EvUl!!!!

I knew it ferball youve been a deep plant this whole time. By posting clearly means you’re endorsing.

Time to get my vicpol mates to start file on you..

 

[The Warlord]

I don't recall you ever asking that, but my tldr answer (and in no particular order) would be;

• Commitment to real action on climate change

Appreciate the effort in replying here, so will respond in kind.

Certainly Australian federal politics has made climate change a "left v right" thing, but the issue itself isn't a definitive differentiator.

For example the NSW Liberal Berejiklian government and especially their Environment Minister Matt Kean were as committed to and enacted real action on climate change as any government in Australian history.

The Chinese government is also committed to real action on climate change, nobody has done more for solar power or electric car innovation for example.

• Embracing and supporting a multicultural community

Multiculturalism in Australia was traditionally the preserve of the Liberals (the term entered use here under Fraser for example), while the economic Left party in Labor was institutionally racist.

Howard massively raised the level of immigration from China and India for example, in the belief that he was creating a whole new massive generation of right wing socially conservative Liberal voters.

And if you look at the results on the same sex marriage vote, some of the most multicultural areas, especially in western Sydney, had very strong NO votes.

If you mean being fiercely anti-racist is basic left position, yes, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly.

• Unequivocal support for social welfare, including things like working conditions, universal healthcare, pensions, etc

Yes agreed ... but also crucially the levels of high progressive taxation required to fund them.

• Understand and support the importance of public health and safety (vaccines work, ****ers)

Yes and no, this is one that's only very very recently become an issue.

In fact, for most of my life anti-vaxxery was associated with the Left, especially Deep Green types.

Its worth recalling the two most successful vaccine development programs were managed under right wing governments in the US (Trump) and UK (Johnson).

Have you ever read Drew Westen's The Political Brain?

Its a magnificent, seminal work, in which he talks about how so many public goods and services are very important to conservatives and were often developed and funded by conservative governments in the past.

Public health and vaccination is a classic example.

There's absolutely no reason that a conservative/right winger won't support basic public health and and/or vaccination.

• Unwavering support for public education, from early childhood through to higher education

Yes agreed.

• Human rights as a foundational necessity for a free society

In theory yes, but the use of "free" intrigues me here. The right argues that much of what you've advocated above requires impositions backed by state violence.

Personally I don't give a shit what they think there. The real question is a "free" society for who?

• Pursuing cooperation and partnerships with other nations based on democratic ideals of freedom and equality

This is classic neocon talk.

• LGBTIQA+ rights for all, and a strong educational platform that teaches children safe sex practices as well as equality and cultural safety (safe schools is a great program )

This is far from an exclusively left position, especially the LGBTQIA+ rights for all element

Same sex marriage came in via right wing governments here and in the UK, Leo Varadkar is gay yet one of the more hardcore right wing politicians the West has seen recently.

Someone like Tim Wilson would agree with the above is very much a right winger. A lot of Euro far right politics stems from the ideas of Pim Fortuyn for example.

• Tax the rich

Meaningless slogan, mainstream right wing parties tax the rich too, just slightly less.

• Opposing xenophobia, racism, homophobia/transphobia, etc

Yes, but these are basics of any decent politics rather than being radical left stuff.

• Socialism is not a dirty word

Yes, but again, its more than just a word too. How will it be advanced?

• Working hard to eliminate poverty

Right wingers will tell you their politics does that too. Thatcher's right to buy of council homes was about eliminating poverty as she saw it. Again, pretty empty slogan.

• No guns - community safety outweighs individual liberty in this regard

That's a deeply American worldview.

It was the most right wing Prime Minister in modern Australian history that did more to take guns out of society than anyone else.

• Legalise cannabis

That's a basic libertarian position ... demonstrating that you can have left as well as right wing libertarianism.

Much of what we consider "libertarianism" here is very much a particular strain of US political thought rather than actual libertarianism.

Cannabis already is legal where I live anyway. I get my weed from a small independent chemist up on the local shopping strip, near the butcher and hair dresser.

• I'm sure I'm forgetting other stuff

Yeah, there's stuff about indigenous rights etc you haven't mentioned but that's by the by.

For me the thing that's omitted is any radical action. Left politics has always been radical, it is about bringing dramatic change to better things for people.

What I see above, and in what you post is more tinker within the confines of the system rather than radically reform/change it, if necessary breaking parts if not the whole thing.

It is classic small el liberalism than anything else.

I mean, one of the current radical left position is to defund the police for example, which I understand it means drastically reduce the size of the police and completely reorient their purpose.

Your worldview seems to be "make the police be nice to gay and brown people" which is a remarkably different thing.

There's not much above that's truly Left.

It is a very US filtered political worldview very common in post materialist Western "progressives", especially the current Greens (hence your geopolitics also very US skewed and filtered).

Its very heavy on identity politics and pretty tame slogans or widely accepted positions, but lacks any genuinely radical analysis let alone call to action on the truly exploitative nature of our current politics.

I mean, for mine an absolutely basic Left position would be the nationalisation of all mining resources with the funds gained from sale directed to the public purse with a very significant slice going directly to the First nations on whose land the resources came from.

Another radical Left idea would be banning private schooling. No ifs or buts.

Similarly, complete decriminalisation of all drugs and the removal of any powers police have over drug possession or use.

The hard neocon element of your geopolitics shines through there too.

Geopolitically the US is as vicious and voracious an expansionist imperial power as human history. Genghis Khan and Julius Caeser would smile approvingly.

But thanks for taking the time and effort to reply to my post.

 

[ferball]

I mean, for mine an absolutely basic Left position would be the nationalisation of all mining resources with the funds gained from sale directed to the public purse with a very significant slice going directly to the First nations on whose land the resources came from.

100% this. At the very minimum. That's one step along a pathway to implementing actual socialism.

Alot of what Chad typed was just basic decency and it is something people on the left and right both aspire to. One thing he lacked in that list was adequate critique of capitalism (and corporatism) and of course neo-colonialism.

One thing that could be good would be an end to corporate personhood as well. Its really one of the most ludicrous ideas I've ever heard when you consider it from the pov of ... reality ie what's physically real and what isn't.

 

[The Warlord]

100% this. At the very minimum. That's one step along a pathway to implementing actual socialism.

Alot of what Chad typed was just basic decency and it is something people on the left and right both aspire to. One thing he lacked in that list was adequate critique of capitalism (and corporatism) and of course neo-colonialism.

One thing that could be good would be an end to corporate personhood as well. Its really one of the most ludicrous ideas I've ever heard when you consider it from the pov of ... reality ie what's physically real and what isn't.

"Tax the rich".

When Liz Truss tried to reduce the top rate of taxation the markets slaughtered her and ended her prime minister because even hedge managers understand you need to tax the rich to fund a functioning government.

We've also had far higher rates of top end taxation under conservative governments here and in the UK/US.

Personally I think the far more progressive position is taxing most people far less but making up the revenue shortfall on structural measures like the above nationalisation.

 

[ferball]

"Tax the rich".

When Liz Truss tried to reduce the top rate of taxation the markets slaughtered her and ended her prime minister because even hedge managers understand you need to tax the rich to fund a functioning government.

We've also had far higher rates of top end taxation under conservative governments here and in the UK/US.

Personally I think the far more progressive position is taxing most people far less but making up the revenue shortfall on structural measures like the above nationalisation.

If we managed nationalising mines properly we'd all be stinkin' rich. We have so much wealth in this country and it goes offshore for a pittance. Those seppos Chad loves are responsible for alot of that too.

 

[The Warlord]

If we managed nationalising mines properly we'd all be stinkin' rich. We have so much wealth in this country and it goes offshore for a pittance. Those seppos Chad loves are responsible for alot of that too.

We'd be able to fund a proper public/social housing program too

One thing that turns my stomach about the current Victorian Green faux left is their insistence that the current hideous housing commission towers stay up as a political wedge against the current government.

 

[The Warlord]

Lol

 

[bengrina]

What’s the likelihood of things escalating to all out war between hezbollah and the Israelis?

 

[The Warlord]

A Foreign Policy for the World as It Is

Biden and the search for a new American strategy.

www.foreignaffairs.com

Very interesting read

 

[The Warlord]

What’s the likelihood of things escalating to all out war between hezbollah and the Israelis?

Getting higher by the day

 

[giantroo]

 

[DesertRoo]

Army spokesmen, you cannot defeat an ideology.. I think they’re slowly alerting the public to shifting goals.

'Hamas cannot be destroyed, it's an idea,' says IDF spokesman

Daniel Hagari tells Israeli news channel there is no destroying Hamas completely, and that the political echelon needs to stop misleading the public; PM's office: 'Destroying Hamas - One of the goals of the war'

www.ynetnews.com

 

[The Warlord]

Lucky the US President isn't surrounded by yes men and women who hide the truth from him like you get authoritarian societies

 

[bengrina]

Getting higher by the day

What are the capabilities of Hezbollah?

 

[The Warlord]

 

[The Warlord]

What are the capabilities of Hezbollah?

They beat Israel in 2006

 

[giantroo]

What are the capabilities of Hezbollah?

 

[DesertRoo]

A Foreign Policy for the World as It Is

Biden and the search for a new American strategy.

www.foreignaffairs.com

Very interesting read

Great article but full of contradictions, author needs to check his own bias.

 

[Chadwiko]

 

[The Warlord]

View attachment 2024577

Tbh those big national head to head polls aren't that useful, especially stuff still within the margin of error like that.

It'll come down to individual counties in individual states, like it has the last few times.

I stull think the Democrats most likely win on the back of the female vote enraged by Roe v Wade.

The Republicans made a grievous strategic error there - classic dog that caught the car stuff.

 

[DesertRoo]

Tbh those big national head to head polls aren't that useful, especially stuff still within the margin of error like that.

It'll come down to individual counties in individual states, like it has the last few times.

I stull think the Democrats most likely win on the back of the female vote enraged by Roe v Wade.

The Republicans made a grievous strategic error there - classic dog that caught the car stuff.

Just an observation, I think cost of living is going to be one of the biggest issues at play.